understanding the boards on my feet

[Kano]

Okay, so something's been niggling at me the last couple of days.

Jeannie Thoren was here in Boise on Thursday evening. It was a COOL event! I learned things that will have me spending money on improving my current stuff, and maybe buying new stuff as well.

Here, I read about stiffness, and flex, and this is good for this and that's good for that. I'm not sure how it will affect me/my skiing. I envision me hill-time with an assortment of skis to start to get a handle on this. Wondering when there will be some demo-days for any skis, not just the Dynastars on Bogus, to start this! My feeling is that it would be interesting to do the same run on the same snow on each of a few to see what each type does on it, and then pick one to play with more.

Jeannie was, of course, showing off the Dynastar skis the other night, and I just didn't get a "feature" of her demo. She would put the tail of the ski on the floor, and push down on the center to show that the ski is flexible. Then something about the way it snapped back to "neutral" was supposed to vary between models, and apparently, this visual was supposed to be effective and I was supposed to see some difference in the skis? I'm sure it relates to the flex and stiffness, but was I, the attentive audience member really supposed to get some benefit from this? Is it something that I'd understand more from doing the same thing to the skis myself?

So, that's what was bugging me.

I'm pretty good at rambling, so here's some more:


I liked the purple ones. Not sure what they were called. That's my level of sophistication at this point. I have NO idea if the purple ones are something that I should ski on at my skill level -- whatever THAT is! Mostly, I could tell that they were pretty. They were passed around, and I could feel that they were some lighter than the other pairs, aside from the ski with no binding...

The coordinating purple boots were pretty too, if they can/could possibly work on my wide fore-foot they're what I would choose at this moment! That's a whole different discussion though...

Not that this is my year for new skis, mind you, but, aside from the potential for wearing them out physically, or breaking one, or something like that, how do I know when it's time to look for something different?

If I understand what I've been reading correctly, my K2 True Luvs will perform differently for me this year than they have the last two winters. They're 153cm, and I've gone from 210-220 the last couple of winters down to 170 this fall. If I understand what I've read, there will be more effective stiffness in my skis this year. And if what I'm understanding is correct, I'm going to get more/better or at least different "performance" out of them, which will probably help me progress as a skier. I think this is a good thing, yes? (unless the "different" is bad)

We started with the Rossi Cut 10 ski that the ski school provided as rentals. Bought them after using them for a season -- it's expensive to get started in this sport, and not knowing what to want in a ski, it made sense as we got started. THEY SCARED ME, and that really never got better. I never felt like I had control over them, except on the easiest green runs, at really slow speed.

Demo'd the K2s one day, and eventually bought them. Didn't try anything else to compare, but they were SO much more pleasant to ski on than the first pair that it seemed to make lots of sense. It seemed to me that for my skill and confidence level at the time, they were a good match. From what I've been reading lately, I may have been better off on longer skis due to my weight, but since I told the sales guy that I didn't like to go fast, that was probably a consideration when he picked that size for me.

I like my skis. I did and do go faster on them than on the Rossi's right from the start. They're not as scary. I can and do still scare the bejeebers out of myself on a regular basis, but usually it's because I've stepped out of my comfort zone not the constant rattly I'm lucky to be keeping my feet under me thing. In fact, now I can scare the bejeebers out of DH sometimes, instead!

Right now, since I'm finding my body is more agile than it used to be, I think I can expect a very different ski season than I'm used to. It sounds like my skis will be more responsive, and like that will continue to "change" as I get smaller. Do I have this right? This makes me think that I have a season or two with these skis before I can expect to start thinking my skills have outgrown them, eh? In any case, I'll need to spend time getting to know where I am this year, and since I know my boots are marginal for fit anymore at best, it'll be boots this year if I HAVE to replace besides the clothes!

Kano

 

[Ski Spirit]

Hi Kano,
I'm pretty sure the purple Dynastar skis you refer to are Dynastar Exclusive Legend.
If you decide to get new boots, make sure to find a master bootfitter to advise you. I was in pain all last season from problematic boots. Got custom footbeds this year and no pain on first ski day yesterday. In fact, my feet felt better than ever before. As everyone says, boots are the single most important piece of ski equipment.

 

[liquidfeet]

Skis have way too many factors to consider - more even than an 35mm camera!

Ski Length -- depends on your weight mostly, but also the type of skiing you want to do and the snow you ski on (natural, man-made, groomed, park&pipe, bumps, etc.) Lighter people need shorter skis. Heavier people, and skiers with a higher level of skill who like to go fast on the groomed, need longer skis. I don't know about powder skiers.

Shape/Turn Radius -- very important, but they don't talk to you much about this in the shops. A ski with a turn radius of 11 - 13meters is a slalom ski, made to make lots of quick short-radius turns. This type of ski will help you make lots of turns to keep yourself from going faster and faster down the hill out of control. Therefore it is good for going slow. It is also good for going down steep slopes under control.

A ski with a turn radius of 14-18 meters is a recreational-GS-type ski. It is meant to make larger turns, which translates into fewer turns. Fewer turns down the hill means faster skiing. So if you like going fast, get a GS-type ski. Do not get a GS ski with a turn radius of 21+meters. It will go almost straight down the hill, and you will be a bullet aimed at everyone in front of you!

Waist Width -- this has to do with type of snow you ski on, and is the mesure of the width of the middle of the ski, under your boot. If you're on hard groomed snow, mostly man-made, as in New England or the MidWest, you need skis with a narrow waist, 70mm or less. This helps you get on edge and stay on edge easier, so you can more easily slice/carve along on the hard stuff with your skis up on their edges. If you're skiing out west on real snow, or on stuff that isn't groomed, you need skis with a waist of at least 80mm, and up to 100+mm. These are mid-fats or fatties, and they help you stay afloat on top of the powder. Some people like to ski mid-fats (80-90mm) on the eastern hard snow despite this general advice. They need to get more body angulation to keep the wider skis up on edge, so I don't know if this would work for beginner-intermediate skiers or not.

Longitudinal Flex, which you have described your clinic leaders showing you, is chosen based on skier's skill level and type of skiing. There's no good way to gauge the flex of a ski, as there is no industry-wide numerical measure of flex. Softer skis are better for wobbly skiers, as they absorb the inefficient moves the skier makes without deflecting the skis left or right or whatever everytime the skier shoots an arm out or twists the body to the side. If this sounds like you, get soft skis. You can't tell if they are soft, but the shop attendant can. Stiffer skis are for skiers who have their bodies well under control, and every little move they make with their hands, arms, knees, shoulders, and so on is calculated to move the skis left, right, up on edge, flatter, to pressure the front or the back of the ski, or whatever. If this is you, get a ski with stiffer flex. But skiers who want to do tricks in the terrain park often use softer skis, and bump skiers like softer skis too.

Torsional Flex -- don't worry about it until you're a very skilled skier. This is how well the ski avoids twisting (twisting like wringing out a dish rag) when it's pressured at high speed. What's inside the ski (wood, foam, metal) and how the insides are laminated together affect the way the ski avoids twisting, and therefore how it holds its edge on snow at speed. You want the ski not to twist. Titanium inside helps, but makes the longitudinal flex stiffer, and makes the skis heavier.

There's more, but this is enough to start with. I hope it helps.

Some manufacturers' websites allow you to type in your weight, the type of skiing you want to do, the type of snow you ski on, and so on, then tell you which of their skis meet your needs. This is really helpful. Try them out!

 

[perma-grin]

Liguidfeet I agree with everything that has been stated above with the exception of torsional flex ( or torsinal rigidity as it is more commonly refered to.) I think you need to worry about torsional rigidity no matter what level of skier you are. The degree of torsional rigidty a ski has (especialy in the shovel and tail,) dictate how easiely a ski will enter and exit a turn. A ski that is too torsionaly ridgid in the shovel will not enter the turn smoothly especially at slower speeds. On the other hand if it is to soft torsionaly it will twist off and deflect in heavier crud snow or bomb proof boiler plate. (or as we refer to it packed powder. Lol) You don't have to be skiing particularly fast for this to happen.
Ski manufactures have went to a great deal of trouble(especial with womens skis) to build their shape skis with the correct amount of torsinal rigidity dependant on the skiers needs, that they have been produced for. (That is why it is so important to qualify your skier type.) Ski designers discovered (with a little help from snowboard designs) that they could achieve the same level of torsional rigidity by making the ski wider at the shovel with out the extra length that we use to have for stability. That is how we use to acheive torsional rigidity, through the increased length hence longer skis were more stable at higher speeds and in variable snow conditions. Do you remeber the shape and lengths of the first Elan SCX"s the first true parabolics produced for sale. I always pay close attention when selecting a ski for a student or one of my racer's it is the difference between being able to overwhelm the ski if need be, or the ski overwhelming you. As for Jeanie flexing the ski I believe she was demonstrating the fact that that particular ski has an "unbalaced flex pattern" to better accomodate a womens lowered center of mass and femur length. And yes it take a lot of practice to flex a ski and make it look easy,( but well worth it because for some reason this dazzles your male customer with your amazing ski knowlegde. Lol) Jeanie has been doing this for a very long time and has earned her place in the ski industry. I may not always agree with everything that she say's but I know that she has done her research, put in her time getting slapped around by the good old boy's club on both side's of the atlantic! And thank God that she has, because of her hard work and dedication our ski experience is a lot more fun!!! She has come a long way since Her day's with Blizzard skiis. Not bad for a Yooper girl! Whoa, talk about a ramble it's got to be the menopause! Lol! Hey Kano maybe we can get together when I go home in Febuary and ski together. I'll be home for almost a month, Ketchum is only 3 hours from Boise! PM me if you would be interested you can never to many pairs of shoes or ski buddies!

 

[jaydog]

I liked the purple ones. Not sure what they were called. That's my level of sophistication at this point. I have NO idea if the purple ones are something that I should ski on at my skill level -- whatever THAT is! Mostly, I could tell that they were pretty.

That'd be the Exclusive Legend. I have last year's model, which incidentally is orange and definitely not pretty. It's an advanced ski, not very forgiving, designed to handle tough conditions. If you're interested, definitely demo it first.

 

[Kano]

Skis have way too many factors to consider - more even than an 35mm camera!

I'm bopping myself on the head a la the V8 commercials every day lately, with "who knew" coming out of my mouth!

Ski Length -- depends on your weight mostly, but also the type of skiing you want to do and the snow you ski on (natural, man-made, groomed, park&pipe, bumps, etc.) Lighter people need shorter skis. Heavier people, and skiers with a higher level of skill who like to go fast on the groomed, need longer skis. I don't know about powder skiers.

So, relatively short skis for a heavy person who doesn't like speed and isn't real skilled, probably good. Now, for a more skilled, likes a little bit more speed, not as heavy person, they should be okay too?

Shape/Turn Radius -- very important, but they don't talk to you much about this in the shops. A ski with a turn radius of 11 - 13meters is a slalom ski, made to make lots of quick short-radius turns. This type of ski will help you make lots of turns to keep yourself from going faster and faster down the hill out of control. Therefore it is good for going slow. It is also good for going down steep slopes under control.

Should go out into the dark to see just what's on the ski -- I seem to remember 13 or 16. Turning lots is good. I like that yet.

Waist Width -- this has to do with type of snow you ski on, and is the mesure of the width of the middle of the ski, under your boot. If you're on hard groomed snow, mostly man-made, as in New England or the MidWest, you need skis with a narrow waist, 70mm or less. This helps you get on edge and stay on edge easier, so you can more easily slice/carve along on the hard stuff with your skis up on their edges.

Hmmmm,,,, mostly groomed run skis my True Luvs then. That figures, I told ski dude I was happiest on groomed runs!

If you're skiing out west on real snow, or on stuff that isn't groomed, you need skis with a waist of at least 80mm, and up to 100+mm. These are mid-fats or fatties, and they help you stay afloat on top of the powder. Some people like to ski mid-fats (80-90mm) on the eastern hard snow despite this general advice.

Sounds like my next skis will be "mid fats" I can do the not groomed powdery stuff more now than I used to, and it would be good to do it better! They work pretty good on groomed runs too, yes?

Longitudinal Flex, [snip] Softer skis are better for wobbly skiers, as they absorb the inefficient moves the skier makes without deflecting the skis left or right or whatever everytime the skier shoots an arm out or twists the body to the side. If this sounds like you, get soft skis. You can't tell if they are soft, but the shop attendant can.

Hee hee, that would be me. It would be cool to be this skier someday:

Stiffer skis are for skiers who have their bodies well under control,

There's more, but this is enough to start with. I hope it helps.

Some manufacturers' websites allow you to type in your weight, the type of skiing you want to do, the type of snow you ski on, and so on, then tell you which of their skis meet your needs. This is really helpful. Try them out!

It's definitely enough! And, I haven't seen the ones that have me put in weight, just height -- but it is fun to run those things!


Thank you, Liquidfeet!
Kano

 

[Kano]

Liguidfeet I agree with everything that has been stated above with the exception of torsional flex ( or torsinal rigidity as it is more commonly refered to.) I think you need to worry about torsional rigidity no matter what level of skier you are. The degree of torsional rigidty a ski has (especialy in the shovel and tail,) dictate how easiely a ski will enter and exit a turn. A ski that is too torsionaly ridgid in the shovel will not enter the turn smoothly especially at slower speeds. On the other hand if it is to soft torsionaly it will twist off and deflect in heavier crud snow or bomb proof boiler plate. (or as we refer to it packed powder. Lol) You don't have to be skiing particularly fast for this to happen.

Yikes! I don't need my skis surprising me! I like it to do what I want it to, and that can be challenging enough! On the other hand, maybe I'll find out that I can handle surprises better this year?

If I had two skis that were generally equal otherwise, would I be able to get a sense of this tortional thing, given that they were different enough? Heck, that brings up a similar question -- if I had two skis the same in all ways but one, would I sense the difference if I put one at the bottom, skied the other, then swapped and did the run again? Then play the game with some other difference? Is that even possible in the recreational world? If it is, is it a good idea?

Ski manufactures have went to a great deal of trouble

Thank you ski manufacturers! And shop folk too, for learning what's going to work for me so I don't have to!

As for Jeanie flexing the ski I believe she was demonstrating the fact that that particular ski has an "unbalaced flex pattern" to better accomodate a womens lowered center of mass and femur length. And yes it take a lot of practice to flex a ski and make it look easy,( but well worth it because for some reason this dazzles your male customer with your amazing ski knowlegde. Lol)

I thought it looked like a dazzle thing. Interesting to have an idea why the skis flexed where they did, rather than where I expected...

Jeanie has been doing this for a very long time and has earned her place in the ski industry. I may not always agree with everything that she say's but I know that she has done her research, put in her time getting slapped around by the good old boy's club on both side's of the atlantic! And thank God that she has, because of her hard work and dedication our ski experience is a lot more fun!!! She has come a long way since Her day's with Blizzard skiis. Not bad for a Yooper girl!

I really liked her. Her passion and dedication make her extremely good at what she does. Yes, I agree that she's done a great service for us, even without actually trying what she's selling yet! I don't think I have enough experience to disagree with anything, but after playing with the "discovery techniques" and her "testing methods" she enjoyably described, I have been regretting even more that I was watching the grandkids the next day, when she was doing fit evaluations and all. Knowing that the fitters at McU's are trained in her methods/theories pretty much converted me to their shop -- even though I didn't purchase anything there YET because of the event. My skis DID come from there two seasons ago, and my next boots will come from there too. I'm itching to get in and get fitted and aligned and whatever else! I want to see how what she talked about will do for my skiing!

Whoa, talk about a ramble it's got to be the menopause!

That's what does it?

Hey Kano maybe we can get together when I go home in Febuary and ski together. I'll be home for almost a month, Ketchum is only 3 hours from Boise! PM me if you would be interested you can never to many pairs of shoes or ski buddies!

OOOH this is mighty tempting! I could be persuaded to find my way to Ketchum even if DH won't go. HAven't skiied over there yet. It would be fun to talk him into it too, but sometimes he's annoying about going places. Even really fun places like Sierra Trading Post's brick and mortar!

Kano

 

[Kano]

Hi Kano,
I'm pretty sure the purple Dynastar skis you refer to are Dynastar Exclusive Legend.
If you decide to get new boots, make sure to find a master bootfitter to advise you. I was in pain all last season from problematic boots. Got custom footbeds this year and no pain on first ski day yesterday. In fact, my feet felt better than ever before. As everyone says, boots are the single most important piece of ski equipment.

I think you're right about the skis.

And you're DEFINITELY right about the bootfitter. I do NOT do cranky feet! Heck, DH does not do MY cranky feet! He seems to think feet must be cranky while skiing, but I won't have any of it!

Going to have to start the boot fit questions thread soon....

Kano

 

[perma-grin]

hI Kano,
To answer your question about noticing the torsional rigidity thing, yes you would notice! A good example that comes to mind is a couple of years back the "original" Atomic Ladies B 11 (118-65-104? the newer model is considerably wider under foot) was built off of the SL 9 chasis, but they use different Beta rods (carbon not Titanium)
this not only effected the logitudinal flex but the torsional flex as well. Nordica did it with the SUV series 10 and 12 were the same side cut, one had a layer of carbon, one had Titinal (titanium). Again TFand LF affected. Volkl does it with there "Double Grip" technology. These things and the materials that the ski is constructed of, and the way that is constucted (cap, monoblock, or torsion box) all have a great effect on torsional rigidty and in many cases swing weight. All manufacturers have their little trade secrets the trick is aquiring knowledge with out falling into analysis paralysis. You need to figure out how all of these things fit into and apply to your skiing. I used to have a slalom and a GS for racing and cruising, and a soft de-tuned slalom for teaching adults on, and short rock skis for munchkins to walk on.. Now some 20 yrs later I have a soft easy to handle all mountian (womens specific) with a descent side cut to teach on and free ski. A junior slalom for gate drills and course demo's. Much easier on this mommy's back! And I can get away with the Junior because they are now torsionaly more ridgid than they were in years gone by flex wise on a junior world cup I'm golden. I've simplified my quiver. I don't carry ten pair of skis around with me any more ( unless they are demo's for students) because I don't need to. Skis are just built better now, they are more user friendly and inspite of the propoganda that would suggest otherwise, they tend to be more versitile. I have been nothing but impressed with the level of skill and equipment knowledge that the ladies on this site have. It makes me feel less of a tecno-weenie. You would be surprised at how little the average skier understands about their equipment even most skiing proffesionals. (If they did they wouldn't be buying full blown race gear to hall around a toboggan or to teach 4 yr olds on. ) Good luck with your research you are off to a very good start.

 

[liquidfeet]

The degree of torsional rigidty a ski has (especialy in the shovel and tail,) dictate how easily a ski will enter and exit a turn. A ski that is too torsionaly rigid in the shovel will not enter the turn smoothly especially at slower speeds. On the other hand if it is to soft torsionaly it will twist off and deflect in heavier crud snow or bomb proof boiler plate.

PermaGrin,
Thanks for the post. I love knowing everything about the gear, and want to understand it all. So I have a question for you about torsional rigidity.
If the tip of a ski twists torsionally when you initiate a turn, then the waist will be up on edge at an angle determined by your boots (say 15 degrees) but the tip will twist away under pressure and be up only say 5 degrees. Same for the tail at the end of the turn -- it will have less angle than the waist.
So I'm imagining the tip at initiation barely gripping the snow, while the waist is doing its best to carry the responsibility of determining the ski's path. Effectively you are carving with very short skis. Seems to me you are in a skidding situation, with far less control of your skis than if the tips and tails held the same ski-to-snow angle as the waist.
Granted you don't want ski tips/tails deflecting in crud or boiler plate, but in what situations would this EVER be a good thing?

 

[volklgirl]

LF,

You're assuming that the tip, waist, and tail are the same lateral stiffness as well. Remembering that the tip is typically softer changes that equation to some extent due to the allowance of both "twist" and "bend" (but yes, for a brief moment you are on a "shorter" ski). The softer flex and torsional stiffness allows the tip to roll into the turn easily and quickly, then the progressive flex pattern to the stiffer waist (on both planes) kicks in giving the ski "grip" underfoot - the more torsional rigidity, the more grip. The same then happens in the tail....a progressive easing of flex and rigidity leading to an easier turn release - or in the case of Atomics, Nordicas, and true race skis, maintaining or increasing the the flex and stiffiness in the tail leads to powerful and explosive turn finishes. The tail still has to "twist-off" at some point or you'd just carve right on back up the hill unless you skidded at the turn's finish.

For a beginner or intermediate, this twist and flex is a very good thing. It makes the ski (as you noted) esentially shorter and easier to maneuver and skid, as well as making it more forgiving.

Is all that as clear as mud?????

 

[perma-grin]

Thanks Volkl girl! Yeah what she said!! Couldn't have said it better myself and it would have taken me 3 times as long to type it!! Lol!

 

[liquidfeet]

The softer flex and torsional stiffness allows the tip to roll into the turn easily and quickly. The tail still has to "twist-off" at some point or you'd just carve right on back up the hill.
Is all that as clear as mud?????

Well, no, not yet.

So here are my questions. What does "roll into the turn easily and quickly" mean? If I put my weight forward towards the tips of the skis, tip my boots and ski waists up on edge, and the skis' tips go up on edge at the same angle as the waist, won't the whole ski roll into the turn just fine?? Why is some torsional give in the tips necessary?

And then, if I'm done with the turn, and I flatten the skis, then tip them in the other direction at some angle, and the tails hold the same angle as the waists, I suspect I'll turn and go in the other direction, not up the hill. So why should my ski tails have torsional give?

Is tortional flex good for people who are not yet fully in control of their upper bodies, who need any extraneous movements up there to be absorbed so they have time to regain their balance before the ski reacts?

This is fun. A technical discussion without testosterone-inflamed posturing!

 

[volklgirl]

I am not, by any means an expert on any of this....this is just my understanding and experience of the physics involved. I do not have an engineering degree or anything and I may be waaaaaayyyyyy off.

OK. A hands-on project.

Take 1 ski and lay it on the floor. Now tip it up on edge - does the waist touch? No. Now push directly to the side. Does the waist touch? Still no. Now, push down and to the side cuasing the tip and tail to twist off. Touching now? Maybe (or maybe not) on the floor, but if this was snow, the answer would be yes. If the tip and tail do not twist off to some degree, the waist will never touch the snow, so no grip underfoot. The less sidecut the ski has, the less critical twist becomes.

The amount of twist and flex is pretty important for skiers without the body awareness and fine motor movements required for high performance skiing. Increased twist and flex shortens the ski making for more maneuverability and allows the waist to contact the snow sooner with less required effort and precision. Upper end skiers have the ability to shift their weight fore and aft or side to side with varying degrees of precision, thereby choosing when and how far back on the ski the waist comes into play. By pressing forward, an experienced skier can increase the amount of flex and twist at the tip for shorter turns or stand centered or even a little back making for less twist/flex and a longer turn.Staying forward during the turn will help the ski to release by allowing the twist to happen at the end of the turn. For a longer, stronger finish, press back a bit on the heel to harness the energy in the tail. A beginner doesn't have the experience or feel to make use of twist/flex in this way, so needs a softer ski that will flex/twist in a consistent way despite any odd gross motor movements.

LF - you should have experienced all of this in your transition from the Gamma to the Atomics. The Gamma is a fairly even-flexing somewhat stiff ski with a fair amount of torsional flex in the tip and tail. They should have been fairly mildly mannered and consistent on both entry and exit from the turn. The Atomics (just guessing based on my experiences with their normal flex pattern) probably have a much stiffer tail giving them less available twist in the tail and a much stronger turn finish - thus the speed you so dearly love . They also have a comparatively soft tip (at the VERY tip), giving them plenty of twist up front and a pretty quick entry into the turn.