Too much too soon?

[liquidfeet]

For me a 90 degree shin is open. That's standing up on dry land territory. Comfy! Normal! Familiar! Sounds like we agree on that point.

It takes concentration to not do that on skis. Thus my focus on closing and keeping closed the ankles. I never said rigidly the same angle, just closed. Some wobble happens. Not allowing them to open is my thing here.

I realize not every instructor cares about ankles staying flexed/closed, and some are deliberately against it (not sure where they are coming from, however). Maybe it's because it's real hard to get students in a lesson who don't control their ankles to start keeping them closed.

First, they keep losing the focus. It takes determined attention, and a willingness to do it which is scary when the skis point downhill. People without the experience feel they will hurt themselves if they close their ankles and keep them closed, as in Ursula's first image, even when pointing skis downhill. So it's not just focus that makes it hard; it's fear.

Notice I did not say anything about going up and down, about torso tilt or thigh tilt or knee bend or equal angles among body parts, or folding at the waist ... or whatever. I left that stuff out, as I am focusing in this thread only on the difficult task of not opening those ankles. That happens unconsciously because we do it all the time... unless conscious attention is directed at the task. When that finally clicks into place, then the other stuff gets attention, by me, in my lessons.

Skisailor, are we OK on our differences?

 

[marzNC]

Maybe we should define what is meant by “closed”. I consider that nearly vertical shinbone (ski boot requires at least a bit of flex) as open.

Yep, the concept of "open" and "closed" for ankles can even be hard to grasp when working with an instructor in person. My Massanutten coach, Walter, used the terms at the very beginning of the first lesson I had with him. It was a group lesson for older skiers and there was one other student that day. Took me an hour before I finally asked what he meant by "closed."

 

[liquidfeet]

The differences between open and closed are pretty difficult to see visually when people are in ski boots and new to the concept. It's easy to demo in socks, but well... people are in ski boots so very hard to help them get the feeling and know they are doing it right.

A great exercise, if time permits, is to have student stand on the flats with poles in the snow, instructor kneels and grabs ski tips and pulls on them. Student loses balance (a little). Then instructor has student close ankles with instructions to keep them closed, and does the exercise again. No loss of balance. Upper body may hinge some, but as long as those ankles stay closed, the student is secure in their control of balance.

 

[liquidfeet]

Yep, the concept of "open" and "closed" for ankles can even be hard to grasp when working with an instructor in person. My Massanutten coach, Walter, used the terms at the very beginning of the first lesson I had with him. It was a group lesson for older skiers and there was one other student that day. Took me an hour before I finally asked what he meant by "closed."

Too often this happens. We (they) wait after hearing an unfamiliar term used, hoping the context will reveal the meaning. If that doesn't happen, the opportunity to ask for clarification sometimes passes, and we (they) just guess. Often wrong.

As an adult skier taking ski lessons years ago, I found myself in this situation all the time. I became a ski instructor hoping for lots of help in figuring this stuff out. Well. Disappointment happened. Many ski instructor trainers around my neck of the woods are also foggy on terminology and on clarifying it.

Finding a mentor/instructor/trainer who knows what's going on and who can communicate with you is the best way to wade through the fog of misinterpretations. Few of us are lucky enough to find such a mentor.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Lots of great ideas in terms of stance and how it impacts quad fatigue. I personally knew that change had happened when the "first week soreness" was in my calves instead of quads. Technique matters a lot, yet I have found that training specifically for skiing helps at least as much.

You like to ski black and double blacks out the gate, which tells me that you are adventurous, and a go getter. Finding an at home on your own, or with a trainer, group or private, 8 week, 2-4 hours a week minimum, ski specific workout routine prior to your first day will help a lot. Maybe you already do this? Those of us that hit the slopes full bore from opening day, having to teach 6 hours day after day, all ramp it up about 8 weeks before the season starts with ski fitness classes. They should ideally start with strength and cardio, building into more balance and speed in the 8 week period.

I no longer get the burn that used to force me to literally sit every time I took a break during our training on snow.

There was a mention of boots too stiff. The other end of the spectrum can also cause us to engage muscles in a desperate attempt to remain in control. A lesson I learned the hard way trying to ski harder terrain in very soft rental boots.

 

[marzNC]

Finding an at home on your own, or with a trainer, group or private, 8 week, 2-4 hours a week minimum, ski specific workout routine prior to your first day will help a lot.

That's reminds me of the Bumps for Boomers fitness videos. It's a series that starts with a self-evaluation test. The target audience are skiers over 50, but really can apply to any adult. There are three phases for the basic exercises and advanced exercises for 3D skiing (bigger bumps, powder, crud).

It's been a while since it was mentioned, but the Skiers Edge can be helpful for working on cardio and ski-related leg muscles. However, a big investment in money unless can find one used locally. Also requires a certain amount of free space.

 

[diymom]

Also requires a certain amount of free space.

And not something you can move around easily-- it's pretty heavy.

 

[marzNC]

And not something you can move around easily-- it's pretty heavy.

Possible to get wheels for a Skiers Edge. But I agree that it's best to have a dedicated spot where it simply stays all year.

 

[Cantabrigienne]

Most of my ski life I lived in Hong Kong and only skied 1, max 2 weeks a year. I learnt very quickly that the sole ski trip of the year would be wasted if skied hard on the first day - there was definitely one trip where I took a break on day 3 (or cut it short at least) and went for a massage because I was in so much pain. Aside from burning quads, sitting in the backseat leads to bruised toenails pretty quickly for me.

After a few times of kicking myself for wasting an expensive vacation, I got into the habit of warming up with a few laps on greens on the first day just to do work on the basics (also - usually would have flown 12+ hours to go skiing, so would be jetlagged + still working out the kinks from the flight) and then just cruising around on blues to get the lay of the land if it was a new resort. I'd usually still be a little sore after the first day, but I'd make a point of putting myself in a class for the 2nd day, which would help me re-find my ski feet and set me up with good posture/stance for the rest of the week.

So in your shoes I would: a) get a massage (or use a foam roller diligently) to address any tightness that might be preventing you from optimal movement - there are lots of good videos people have linked elsewhere in this forum on proper skiing stance & I recall one that specifically said tight calves could impede proper ankle flexion; b) take your preferred NSAID or painkiller; c) take a class to help you break out of whatever movement pattern is causing you to get stuck in the backseat...or at least slow down and ski mindfully for a few (easier) runs, preferably roping your DH into videoing you to see if you can put in any of the advice from the others in this thread re: closed ankles etc.

It's amazing how fast you get back your ski legs tho. On the first day on the slopes last year, I skied with my bro-in-law and 2 nephews; the homerun was icy (and full of chunky death cookies) and had a horrible diagonal fall-line & my older nephew was literally crying in pain & had to be coaxed along with promises of hot chocolate etc. The kid was skiing double blacks a month later and just bombing all around Whistler like a rocket in general

 

[Skisailor]

For me a 90 degree shin is open. That's standing up on dry land territory. Comfy! Normal! Familiar! Sounds like we agree on that point.

It takes concentration to not do that on skis. Thus my focus on closing and keeping closed the ankles. I never said rigidly the same angle, just closed. Some wobble happens. Not allowing them to open is my thing here.

I realize not every instructor cares about ankles staying flexed/closed, and some are deliberately against it (not sure where they are coming from, however). Maybe it's because it's real hard to get students in a lesson who don't control their ankles to start keeping them closed.

First, they keep losing the focus. It takes determined attention, and a willingness to do it which is scary when the skis point downhill. People without the experience feel they will hurt themselves if they close their ankles and keep them closed, as in Ursula's first image, even when pointing skis downhill. So it's not just focus that makes it hard; it's fear.

Notice I did not say anything about going up and down, about torso tilt or thigh tilt or knee bend or equal angles among body parts, or folding at the waist ... or whatever. I left that stuff out, as I am focusing in this thread only on the difficult task of not opening those ankles. That happens unconsciously because we do it all the time... unless conscious attention is directed at the task. When that finally clicks into place, then the other stuff gets attention, by me, in my lessons.

Skisailor, are we OK on our differences?

I think so. Getting clearer anyway. The one area that’s still foggy for me is that ski boots make a 90 degree angle very hard. You have to mash your calf against the back of the boot since most boots have a 10-17 degree forward lean built in. So by your definition it seems like everyone would already be skiing with closed ankles. It wouldn’t be something we have to train ourselves to do to hold in place. Right? The ski boots do that for us?

 

[Skisailor]

Probably the biggest difference in our approach has more to do with ankle range of motion. Ursula uses a really large ROM in her ankles - from calf pressed against the back of the cuff to the cuff mashed forward in high speed turns. With her long legs and long shin bone, she has incredible leverage over a boot compared to a petite skier like me. So we have continually worked on my Langes to soften them and allow me to approach that kind of ankle use.

So by way of definitions, I was thinking of “open” as anything from calf pushed against the back of the boot (closest to that 90 degree angle) to very light pressure/contact on the cuff that would approximate the boot’s built in forward lean. By “closed” I was thinking of the angles generated when I start actually applying my weight to the cuff with the max happening at higher speeds where G forces also come into play.

 

[liquidfeet]

Yeah, we are different then.

But then I'm not skiing a zipper line down the bumps, backpedaling fast, nor do I teach it. I imagine the back of the cuff pressure works when backpedaling. I have used backpedaling while skiing the tiny ribbon of soft snow on the side of a skied-off trail. At this point in my life I prefer to stay farther away from the trees, so I have worked on skiing the middles no matter what's there.

Remember, I'm in New England, where the snow melts and refreezes often. We have hard snow, hard bumps, and when it does fall from the sky where I ski, it's rarely deep enough to not feel the hard base below. Your conditions are different.

I watch skiers on the hill all the time. Lots of them have shins rising at 90 degrees. Their boot cuffs have forward lean. The boots are not in control; habit is.

@Skisailor, have I got the backpedaling thing right?

 

[marzNC]

So by way of definitions, I was thinking of “open” as anything from calf pushed against the back of the boot (closest to that 90 degree angle) to very light pressure/contact on the cuff that would approximate the boot’s built in forward lean. By “closed” I was thinking of the angles generated when I start actually applying my weight to the cuff with the max happening at higher speeds where G forces also come into play.

That's how I ended up interpreting open vs closed when working with Walter at Mnut. My boots are pretty upright in general.

Too long a story to explain the details of how it started, but I've played with loose buckling and even completely unbuckled boots as an exercise. It was something Walter talked about the first season I did Silver Clinics with him, often as solo lessons. Can learn a lot about what works and what doesn't that way. Helped to have that experience last season when my liners were clearly getting packed out.

 

[marzNC]

Remember, I'm in New England, where the snow melts and refreezes often. We have hard snow, hard bumps, and when it does fall from the sky where I ski, it's rarely deep enough to not feel the hard base below. Your conditions are different.

Can you imagine spending two days in a "prep for L3 exam" PSIA clinic skiing the bumps at Hunter in unbuckled boots? That was part of the story that I heard from Walter.

 

[marzNC]

The one area that’s still foggy for me is that ski boots make a 90 degree angle very hard. You have to mash your calf against the back of the boot since most boots have a 10-17 degree forward lean built in. So by your definition it seems like everyone would already be skiing with closed ankles. It wouldn’t be something we have to train ourselves to do to hold in place. Right? The ski boots do that for us?

After thinking about it . . . occurs to me that there are plenty of people at Massanutten skiing a lot with a 90-degree angle. They are adult beginners and adv. beginners in rental boots. The boots are clearly too big, and they are still not buckled at the top. Often pants are tucked into the boots. Happens even for people who bother to get the Pathway package that includes lift ticket, rental gear, and two 1-hour beginner lessons.

I observed Walter (30+ years experience skiing and teaching in the mid-Atlantic) giving a never-ever class last season during a holiday weekend. I think he was asked by the Supervisor (PSIA Examiner) to deal with people who didn't "get it" during their first hour lesson so weren't yet okay to do the next lesson that includes riding the lift for the long easy (very easy) green. He was using "open" and "closed" terminology. Out of seven adults, he was able to get all but one doing wedge turns and stopping pretty consistently.

 

[nopoleskier]

I echo @Skisailor and @Ursula
#1=Balance, knowing how your body reacts when placed in the gravitational pull of skiing sliding down a Mt. If you want to ski well, I think you need to have body awareness. For me, I think there's a ton of "Feel" in skiing. Smooth skiers are constantly making slight adjusting forward/aft,open/closed ankles, knee angles, hip angles, hand placement and long leg/short leg, up/down. For me having mostly a closed ankle is the most powerful stance, the most control of the whole ski and safest mode of skiing.

If you can, lessons are well worth it to get you off to a great season. I agree with others, your friends advice isn't good.. sitting back is old style skiing, we had big long straight skis, sometimes it felt like I was popping a wheelie sitting back to turn the skis, especially in deep snow or moguls. Today's ski design no need to sit back, unless you do want to pop a wheelie.

As for rentals being 90degrees vs my boots have built in forward lean and most boots we can dial in the amount of lean we want. I'm going to check our Mt's rental boots. I know they are stiff. I demo'd the set up to see what my students were on, the boots are stiff. I have loosened a lot of boots on my students so they could get forward and have a closed ankle.

Skiing with loose boots is an excellent way to 'feel' your body position and experiment with open/closed ankles. And a fun 90Degree exercise is to 'stand up" and scoot your feet back. We had a whole thread on that: https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/i...ing-the-feet-back-to-initiate-the-turn.21526/

 

[Jilly]

I like to use the analogy of the ready position for tennis, or pretend you're bouncing a basketball. This puts you into the "closed ankle" position. Also I add that your nose should "drip" over your bindings. This seemed to work with my ladies night class.

One of the biggest hurdles that intermediates have, is getting the body downhill on steeps. They want to lean back as it feels safer. It's not, as the weight is now on the back of your skis and not forward.

 

[Skisailor]

Yeah, we are different then.

But then I'm not skiing a zipper line down the bumps, backpedaling fast, nor do I teach it. I imagine the back of the cuff pressure works when backpedaling. I have used backpedaling while skiing the tiny ribbon of soft snow on the side of a skied-off trail. At this point in my life I prefer to stay farther away from the trees, so I have worked on skiing the middles no matter what's there.

Remember, I'm in New England, where the snow melts and refreezes often. We have hard snow, hard bumps, and when it does fall from the sky where I ski, it's rarely deep enough to not feel the hard base below. Your conditions are different.

I watch skiers on the hill all the time. Lots of them have shins rising at 90 degrees. Their boot cuffs have forward lean. The boots are not in control; habit is.

@Skisailor, have I got the backpedaling thing right?

Oh! Definitely no on the backpedaling. I personally dislike that move (having played around with it). And Ursula, with her World Cup bump experience, is definitely not on board with it - really hates it actually. She dislikes any move that allows the weight to move aft - even when used purposefully by an expert skier. The problem is that the skier may be back on their heels at JUST the wrong moment - when the terrain throws something unexpected at them. Every moment back there increases the odds of needing a recovery move that requires more strength and quickness than most of us probably possess. And as you know, Ursula is also all about efficiency. She would say: Why go back there when it only means you then need to make a bigger move to come forward to start the next turn?

I know it seems strange - and it took me awhile to learn this - but even when her calf is against the back of the boot, her weight is still balanced over the ball of her foot. She teaches you how to keep your weight over the forefoot regardless of the degree of ankle flex. The two things need not be tied together! How to do this is not a mystery. It’s just the relative joint flex stuff I’ve described before.

So maybe you can imagine a high speed turn on a steep slope with the skier’s weight on a long outside stance leg - full extension at the apex of the turn (which would likely come after the fall line in steeps). Ursula would have a relatively open (my definition) ankle, knee and hip with her weight centered over the ball of her foot. And that ankle that she’s standing on would also be very loose to absorb all of the micro terrain and keep things smooth at speed. She uses her skeleton for support during the high G-force part of the turn - not her large muscle groups - so she does not get tired.

Anyway - this stuff is hard to describe! If you came out to Big Sky you would see it and understand in a run or two what I’m talking about with your excellent eye for movement analysis.

Also, I do admire and respect what eastern skiers are doing in very different conditions from what we usually encounter out west. I learned to ski in the Poconos and skied for decades in New England (mostly Vermont and Maine) before ever going west. So I truly do, at least, understand what you’re dealing with!

I think we are probably darn close on the closed ankle thing. But I do disagree that recreational skiers are actually achieving a vertical shinbone - that 90 degree angle - despite what it might look like. It’s simply not possible to do so in a modern ski boot unless it’s a really really poor fit - i.e. the boot is so large that the toes slide forward and change the shinbone angle. But the remedy there is a smaller boot, not teaching a technique as the solution to the poor fit.

We seem to depart more on my advocacy, as Ursula’s mentoree, of using a large ankle range of motion (within the bounds of what a good fitting ski boot allows of course).

Finally, Ursula has expressed her concern to me about teaching beginners to focus on keeping their ankles closed because of the primacy of learning concept. If they learn early on to crush the nut, or hold $100 bill between their shin and the cuff, etc. etc., the result is that they never learn the ankle range of motion which she advocates. Instead they start to compensate for their relative lack of ankle motion by flexing their knees too much. So while skiing with consistently closed ankles may indeed work at first with beginners, we’ve simply created the next crop of intermediate and advanced backseat skiers.

 

[badger]

That makes perfect sense.

 

[liquidfeet]

A closed ankle does not require a skier to move weight back. It just isn't so.
When you indicate that it always results in back seat skiing, you are implying that I, an advocate of closed ankles, am a back seat skier. I resent that. I don't see another way of interpreting your absolute certainty that there's only one way to stay out of the back seat, and it's your way.