Question: Tips/Tricks/"Things I've Learned The Hard Way" for AT Skiing?

[Pequenita]

I guess the other things that could be going on is if temps are bouncing around freezing snow can stick on your skin (but I see you said it was 0 degrees -- I assume F), or if the guys were missing the icy patches while you were actually moving on it, or as volklgirl suggests, you're light for your ski and weren't flexing it as much as the guys were flexing theirs, which decreases the pressure/contact your ski has with the snow (and thus, grip). I'm totally guessing on the physics of the last part because I really don't know.

 

[Kimmyt]

Something to keep in mind for going up steeper pitches is your weight, not your actual weight but your weight distribution. This is an important thing I learned from steep slab rock climbing and is very applicable and helpful with skinning up steeper stuff.

- as the angle increases our tendency may be to lean too far forward, therefore putting more weight on the front part of our foot (forefoot). This shifts out center of balance forward onto the front part of the skis, therefore essentially decreasing your surface area contact with the snow---> weight on front of ski, only front part of skins/ski grips the snow.
-in reality, as terrain steepens, we want to keep our weight more centered on our ski. This will feel not like a leaning back, per se, but actually a weighting of the heels of your boots. In slab climbing, we always tell people to drop their heels. You might not be able to get your heel all the way down, but your weight can shift in that direction. It puts more of your foot in contact with the rock which means you stick better. I would imagine its the same for skinning. If you do this while skinning, think of leaning your front body forward but kind of sticking out your butt for counter balance. If you are leaning too far forward, like a ski jumper, your toes are just going to slip and slide from underneath of you.
-if your bindings have heel lifts, these function in a similar way, but allowing you to lean forward more while still having your full weight on the center of the ski. So, if you have the heel lifts you can mess around with that, but it's just as useful to play with your weight while skinning and see what works on steeper stuff, especially if others in your group weren't having an issue.
-some of the guys being able to do it better may have come down to experience and technique, or maybe just weight difference. If they are bigger, they are going to have a little better traction on that snow with their skins whereas us lighties don't.

Edited to add: yay I found at least another internet source that supports my thoughts here! https://www.eagleskiclub.org.uk/skills/skinning

 

[Kimmyt]

OH! Another thing I just thought of, is your boot. Are you in a true touring boot, or are you using a downhill boot? Because if you are in a DH boot, you're going to have less flexibility even if you're in Walk mode, at the ankle, which will make getting that contact harder. That can definitely make a difference!

 

[linum]

I think the weight in it self along with experience explains parts of it, but what Kimmyt is saying about the weight distribution really makes sense...

My skis are very soft rossi s3w skis that followed the uneven terrain really well. But I definitely found myself trying to lean as much forward as possible to make it up the little steeps as well as using the highest heel lift setting. It just felt counterintuitive to put too much weight in the middle and I probably tried to climb on the toes as if I was walking up a hill in shoes.

I am also guilty of using downhill boots for this. New boots coming... Hm, maybe next season, but for now I think I just need to practice more. Will have to check out that link too, thanks a lot for your input!

 

[volklgirl]

Funny about the weight distribution thing....one of our pathologists is an AT skier and he mentioned learning to almost lean back while skinning for that very reason. He said it is very counter-intuitive. I wonder if my experience in XC skiing and snowshoeing will help with this as they both require that centered stance to keep moving uphill?

I'm currently in alpine boots (I thought I had a workable pair of Garmonts, but they're either too stiff, too large, or have too much forward lean - maybe all of the above?), so I'm still shopping for a suitable AT boot. I tried both the Lange XT and the Technica Cochise. I like the walk function of the Cochise better but the heel hold just isn't there and it looks like the liner will pack out ALOT. So, apparently my stupid-skinny Lange heel will remain in Langes for the 3rd pair of boots. Sigh. My boot fitter said the liner in the XT is a thing of beauty and he likes it so much he'd like to date it (but I couldn't tell his wife that), hehe. He does have a point, though.

 

[Ringrat]

Wow, I totally missed this thread until now. Good tips from everyone. Take all of the tips here and figure out what works for you; that'll only happen with time in the backcountry!

I'll share some of my thoughts, in some kind of sequence of how things happen. Sorry if this gets a little preachy...

"beacons on at the car, off at the bar". Check your batteries before you leave your house. Carry spares. Do a full beacon check with your group, properly - everyone's send and receive. Don't skip it, even if you ski with them all the time. Keep other electronics away from your beacon. That means that if you're wearing your beacon in its harness around your midsection, your cellphone should NOT be in a jacket pocket.

If you're brave enough, try and at least partially de-layer before you start skinning. You'll extend the time before you have to stop because you're too hot. If you can't bring yourself to (I often can't, or not enough), do not be shy about stopping the group. Everyone else will be hot too. Don't let those layers get wet with sweat early on. I usually end up skinning in just my baselayer top down to about -10C (14F), but every day is different.

Experiment with how you want your boots buckled for skinning. For most people, it's much looser than how they ski, but it will depend on you and your boots. This year I am having to buckle my left boot down further than in the past, and I've got the layered blisters to prove it. Speaking of which, if you feel something starting to rub, deal with it. Don't wait, it won't get better.

There are a million ways to put on skins. Whatever works for you. I personally stick the tail of my ski into the snow, hook the tip loop of my skin over the tip of the ski, stick about the top half of the skin on, pull off my mesh (yes, I use it, because I hate pulling apart stuck together skins), then flip the whole assembly over, set the tip on the ground, clip the tail clip over the tail, and smooth it all down. Just keep the skin out of snow/fuzz/hair!

Use your heel risers. They're there for a reason, get proficient at putting them up and down.

Just like with anything, straight up may not be the most efficient way to get up the hill. If you're on your highest heel riser, the skin track is probably too steep. If you're slipping, it's definitely too steep. That may change depending on the snow conditions day to day. If there's another option, use it. Sometimes there isn't. Ski crampons can help, yes, but they're a pain and they're actually intended more for sidehilling than going up stupid steep stuff, but they work for both. Stay centered if you're starting to slip. Firmly planting your ski (like stomping down your foot) before transferring your weight can help. Taking smaller steps to reduce the weight transfer on each step can also help. If you're on a scoured or hard slope and your skins & edges aren't digging in, something like this may work:

Practice kick turns, over and over. Practice on flat, then on shallow slopes, and gradually getting steeper. If you're shaky with them on shallow slopes, you're going to be cursing them on steeper ones. There are many videos if you don't have anyone to teach you, this is just one. Actually, this isn't where I put my poles. Lots of different ways.

When I change over from skinning to skiing, how I do it depends on the location and conditions. What changes is how I deal with my skis. If I have a flat spot and it's not super windy, I don't take off my skis. If it's a slope or windy (where I can't set stuff down), I take off one ski at a time. That means I always have a ski I'm standing on so I don't sink. Here's my sequence:
-Lock my bindings into ski mode
-Stamp out a bit of a platform
-Take off my pack and change my layers into what I'm going to wear for the downhill, minus my overmitts.
-Put on my goggles (this gives my glasses, which darken, time to lighten before I have to ski)
-Take off my skins, either with my skis on or one at a time off, and put them away. I have been known to stuff them in my jacket, but they usually go in my pack.
-Put my boots in ski mode and adjust the buckles
-Make sure all my venting zippers are done up on pants and jacket
-Put on my mitts
-Ski!

Skins can be a pain in wind. I like this approach in theory, though I can see cursing it if I wanted to do more runs later.

When I get to the bottom of a run, if I'm going up again, here's my sequence:
-Stamp out a platform
-Take off my mitts
-Put my boots back in tour mode
-Put my skins on, one ski at a time (so I don't sink)
-Get my layers back in touring configuration.

I won't say much about avalanche stuff, other than to practice with your transceiver, probe, and shovel, and to assess continuously. Assess the terrain and the snowpack, even when you're not in avalanche terrain. Probe with your pole, do hand shears, etc.

Most of all...HAVE FUN!

 

[volklgirl]

Nice breakdown for the noobs, Ringrat!! Lots of little stuff I hadn't thought of yet. Unfortunately with the Dukes, I HAVE to take the skis off to change from skin to ski mode as the locking lever is in the middle of the binding, under the boot. Ooof.

And, I've started learning the kick turn with my snowshoes. :-)

 

[Ringrat]

Unfortunately with the Dukes, I HAVE to take the skis off to change from skin to ski mode as the locking lever is in the middle of the binding, under the boot. Ooof.

Yah, every binding is different. If a person is going to attempt taking off skins without taking of skis, I recommend practicing it somewhere flat without an audience. Getting the balance and a sequence that works for you will take time; what I do is not quite the same as most of the videos I've seen (yay for youtube!). The first time I tried, I fell over, much to my touring partner's entertainment. The first time I was successful, I smacked myself in the face with the flying end of my skin. I was out this year with a super-experienced tourer, avalanche instructor, etc...and he had to put his ski down mid-attempt to avoid falling over, successfully covering half of one of his skins in snow. Sometimes it's just easier to take the skis off.....

 

[jellyflake]

..I guess I need to attend a LOT Yoga classes before I even can TRY to keep skis on when taking skins off…. :pound:

 

[Ringrat]

..I guess I need to attend a LOT Yoga classes before I even can TRY to keep skis on when taking skins off…. :pound:

Maybe not as much as you think. This is pretty much exactly what I do:

 

[volklgirl]

Huhn!! That's cool!

 

[linum]

Thanks for sharing Ringrat!

 

[jellyflake]

Maybe not as much as you think. This is pretty much exactly what I do:

That looks SOOOOO easy :D
I don't have my equipment here (it's in the mountains where it belongs and I am only there weekends) - otherwise I would start trying & exercising (& blaming you for every time I fall over and hurt myself ;) ) immediately!!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Rainbow Jenny]

Thanks for this awesome thread as I am also a newbie, shopping for beacon and probe, and looking for partners to go explore together. I thoroughly enjoyed my 16 hr Canadian avy level 1 training last month in Niseko, Japan last month (included all the gears and skis for a small fraction of the cost vs. the US 24 hr version, although I don't know what the content difference is for the 8 hr) It seemed like everyone else was much more experienced, most have been ski/snowboard instructors. But it didn't bother me.

I also tend to slip backward and will definitely keep the weight distribution tip in mind.

Another somewhat tip with snow traveling is if you use a water hydration system, blow air back into the bladder so no water is left in the tubing after your sips. Even if you have the insulated version, it can still freeze!

 

[Kimmyt]

Another somewhat tip with snow traveling is if you use a water hydration system, blow air back into the bladder so no water is left in the tubing after your sips. Even if you have the insulated version, it can still freeze!

I've actually stopped using camelbaks for this reason when touring. I prefer nalgenes, safely tucked in my pack and potentially wrapped in my extra puffy layer. I've been thinking of one of those insulated nalgene cases that I can strap on the outside of my pack. In my case, I'm not a super fast uphill skier, so taking the occasional break to dig out my water bottle has other benefits, too, like I get a bit of recovery and a second wind if I'm tired.

 

[arbusch]

It seems like everyone has given the best advice already. I ski a lot with really strong in shape boys over the years (my husband being one) that like to get 5,000 vertical in a day.

So... some additional tips -

• I have learned to take it at my own pace and mini-breaks so I can go all day.
• To speak up when I think they are putting in too steep of a skin track OR modify it so I don't slip backwards. And to speak up if I don't think it is safe and why!
• To carry energy GUs to keep my energy up.
• On really cold days, I fill my nalgene about 1/3-1/2 full with hot water then cold so it is not super cold when I take a sip. (I have sensitive teeth). I also carry a thermos with hot tea or coco. If you are using a water bladder, to blow back after you take a sip so it doesn't freeze.
• To carry hand warmers and extra mittens. I get really cold hand easily and it is impossible to function if your hands shut down.
• I practice with any new gear before I take it out whether it is in the living room practicing transitions or at a beacon park (hopefully a nice day) to get familiar with any new avalanche safety tools. It makes life easier to do it in the warmth of your house than in white out windy conditions for the first time.
• To carry glide wax. If it is warm (especially in the spring), the snow can stick to your skins. Putting on a little glide wax during these conditions makes a huge difference.

I don't use the mesh liners that come with the skins. I don't have any problems. It is usually pretty windy where I live so they become more of an nuisance during transitions. It took me a while to figure out my layering system since I am generally run cold. Can't think of anything else at the moment. I also used to watch everyone else when I first started. It provided lots of insights. The biggest thing I notice over the years is inefficient skinning techniques which made them tired faster and not knowing how to use their gear which slowed them down. Good luck and have fun.

 

[Ringrat]

In the spirit of this thread, I'll share something that I "re-learned the hard way" a couple of weeks ago. On a gloomy Sunday (it was ra*ning), I set out to do a quick fitness skin up my local ski hill, which I knew was closed due to a mechanical lift issue. Not backcountry, previously groomed, etc. It was very soft and sticky due to the ra*n, and I trudged straight up the main run, including the steep pitch at the top. Actually it was sticky enough that on the way down (and yes, I took off my skins!), I had to push in one spot to keep moving.

So the next day, it had cleared (and cooled) off, so off I went for a skin after work to head up there and help shovel out the avalanche that had partially buried the bullwheel. Everything had frozen. I was trudging straight up my skin track from the day before, and when I hit the steep pitch, I started to slip ever so slightly. I managed that by shifting my weight a bit forward and stamping my skis in. And then suddenly a little one-foot slip turned into a full-blown two-foot slide backwards straight down the hill, in my skin track. I was scared to lean forwards because my heels were free, but I was rapidly gaining speed. I eventually managed to bail somehow or another. Once I picked myself up and made sure no one had seen me, I revised my strategy, and trudged straight up with no further problems...right next to my skin track, where it was a bit rougher.

 

[geargrrl]

made sure no one had seen me

great visual btw

 

[linum]

• To carry glide wax. If it is warm (especially in the spring), the snow can stick to your skins. Putting on a little glide wax during these conditions makes a huge difference.

This past weekend I went out for a shortish skin, about 1 mile in very mellow terrain (more for the exercise than anything). Temperature was above freezing and when I took of the skins they're soaking wet. Not an issue in itself, but it turned out the extra weight the water added made my legs pretty much useless the day after... Would the glide wax help against this or is there anything else than can be done to prevent the skins from getting soaked?

 

[Pequenita]

And to speak up if I don't think it is safe and why!

So important and yet sometimes so difficult to do!