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Tips for narrow runs?

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Hi Nic Nic. :smile:

Love Bounceswoosh's suggestion. But also - while length does matter, the 3 inches between 147s and 155s should not be creating a night and day difference like you seem to be experiencing all by itself. Something else is also likely to be going on. Different construction? Bad tune? Binding mount location? Plus it takes a bit to get used to a new ski! Don't chalk it all up to the length.

I think litterbug has been spot on in her advice. Don't give up on a longer ski yet.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
But also - while length does matter, the 3 inches between 147s and 155s should not be creating a night and day difference like you seem to be experiencing all by itself. Something else is also likely to be going on. Different construction? Bad tune? Binding mount location? Plus it takes a bit to get used to a new ski! Don't chalk it all up to the length.

Those are really good points.
 

Skisailor

Angel Diva
Getting back to the original topic . . There has been a lot of focus on ski length and construction for skiing "narrow runs".

I think it has more to do with the skiing tools in our toolbox and which skills we decide to emphasize. Shouldn't matter if you're on a GS ski in a rocky chute. But it does matter how much edging vs. rotary you decide to use if you are! :smile:
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Getting back to the original topic . . There has been a lot of focus on ski length and construction for skiing "narrow runs".

I think it has more to do with the skiing tools in our toolbox and which skills we decide to emphasize. Shouldn't matter if you're on a GS ski in a rocky chute. But it does matter how much edging vs. rotary you decide to use if you are! :smile:

Yes/no. But more yes than no. And definitely true for the type of terrain we're discussing in this thread.
 

Ursula

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
In the old days we skied short radius turns with skis that were 200 cm long. ;o)
So, what is the problem ski instructors created when we got the more shaped and shorter skis??? Why have so many of our clients problems with narrow runs? Why are you not taught to be able to stay in a narrow corridor? I mean, everybody is telling us that the "new, shaped skis" turn so much easier! So, why can't we make REALLY short turns?

Because everybody thinks CARVING is the cat's pajamas.

We ski instructors are telling you to pressure the edge and the miracle will happen: You will make a turn!
The problem is that even the shortest, with the most radical side-cut ski, tipped on edge, only will make about a 10 to 15 yard diameter turn. On easy green runs - that is not a problem. On steeper terrain - that IS a problem! In Big Sky, skiing the Big Couloir, with a 10 yard diameter turn, I would ricochet of the walls! There I need a 2 yard 180 degree turn! The only way to do that is to sort of forget you have edges! I need to turn on a flat ski. I will be enough on the edge when I am sideways again through the fact, I am standing on a 45 to 50 degree steep incline!
If we want to be able to stay in control turning-wise in ANY terrain, we will have to learn to turn the legs underneath a stable upper body. And depending on how long or how short we want the turn to be, we can use more or less edge. The shorter the turn - the less edge and the more rotation we need. Our problem is that our instinct tells us: the steeper it is - the more edge we want to use. And if our ski is too much on edge, we can not add more rotation to it anymore......... And if we are too much on edge, the ski will do what it is designed to do: carve the radius. And that "inbuilt" radius might be too long to fit into your narrow run.

My 2 cents worth.
Ursula
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
If we want to be able to stay in control turning-wise in ANY terrain, we will have to learn to turn the legs underneath a stable upper body. And depending on how long or how short we want the turn to be, we can use more or less edge. The shorter the turn - the less edge and the more rotation we need. Our problem is that our instinct tells us: the steeper it is - the more edge we want to use. And if our ski is too much on edge, we can not add more rotation to it anymore......... And if we are too much on edge, the ski will do what it is designed to do: carve the radius. And that "inbuilt" radius might be too long to fit into your narrow run.

+1. QFT (quoted for truth)
 

Nic Nic

Certified Ski Diva
All great points. When my ankles were feeling so sore, I did wonder about my boots, but these are the same boots I was using with the 147's. They seem to be ok...heel not lifting out of the boot when I flex forward, not too roomy, etc. Admittedly, I'm feeling slightly better than my earlier runs, but only slightly. Interesting that I shouldn't be feeling so much of a difference with only the length. So could it be that these are stiffer skis (made for park and pipe from what I read online)? Am I feeling so tired because im having to work harder to get them on edge or to turn them?
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
Ursula is so right. It takes more energy to ski narrow runs. Because it's all about the turn...short! You can't lay and ride the side cut. You say rotation, I say pivot...same thing, turn em short.
 

snow addict

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
It's a normal issue for a second year skier. Solution - practice short dynamic turns. Don't block your turns with a pole plant, pole plants have to be more lateral, in this way you won't be wasting time between turns and picking up speed. If you are planning to take a lesson ask your instructor to work with you on this. It's not that difficult but takes some commitment and time on snow to get right. Good advice given here is to try it on wide runs, but visualize a narrow corridor where you need to stay. If you have a go pro, strap it to chest and focus on camera facing the same way and not moving from side to side.
 

litterbug

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ugh, I'm up at Smuggs right now trying these longer skis and hating them so far. I felt so good and in control on the shorter skis. I was able to be a little playful and not so tense. Immediately today, my ankles were tired and sore just like the beginning of last year when I was a "never ever". So far have taken 3 runs and am so tired I'm not having fun. Definitely feel the skis flopping around more under me so I'm trying to remember to keep my weight forward, hands forward. Please tell me something to keep me from marching right back to the shop and get back my 147's! It's all I want right now...sigh.

What the bold faced text suggests to me is that instead of using your whole body to put your skis on edge, you've been turning by twisting your skis, not by putting them on edge. The great news is that this is very easy to remedy--take a lesson, learn to play with edge angles and balance and all that other stuff, and a whole lot of things are going to start making sense.

My experience going to longer skis was exactly the same. After a few years of slithering around on my 153cm, 100mm waist Geishas, I thought I'd made a terrible mistake when the 164cm version felt like lead pipes attached to my feet and my poor muscles couldn't muscle them around. After several runs I started to try some things I'd learned in lessons on narrower skis, and as soon as I started playing with the edges I felt like I could tear around on a lot of terrain in a way I hadn't before, and crud, which used to flummox me, became my favorite thing EVER. Skiing was also much easier and much less fatiguing, even on those big skis. And all this despite the fact that I still suck! :bounce:

hmm...

if your ankles are sore, I wonder if your boots are too big?
When my ankles were feeling so sore, I did wonder about my boots, but these are the same boots I was using with the 147's. They seem to be ok...heel not lifting out of the boot when I flex forward, not too roomy, etc. Admittedly, I'm feeling slightly better than my earlier runs, but only slightly. Interesting that I shouldn't be feeling so much of a difference with only the length. So could it be that these are stiffer skis (made for park and pipe from what I read online)? Am I feeling so tired because im having to work harder to get them on edge or to turn them?
abc may have a point here, but given that it doesn't sound like your boots are too big, I'd still suggest taking a lesson to see if it's a simple skill problem. If you feel movement in your boots as you pick up speed and edging skills, you'll know what to tell the bootfitter when you go for some tweaks.

All that being said, I didn't notice my 2 year old liners packing out at all until I started putting the longer skis on edge, because even slightly increased forces on the edge made my whole foot move around in the boot. So it's something to look at--but I'd still say go for a lesson first.

Ursula and others talking about technique are making excellent points. It's hard to learn to ski by reading on a forum, though. Maybe some of these guys can recommend a particularly helpful instructor where you ski? If not, I'd suggest calling the school in advance to schedule the lesson so they can pick someone who'll meet your needs. Let them know what kind of terrain you already ski and what kind of terrain you want to ski, including those devilish narrow trails. And don't downplay your abilities. You've come a long way in one season, and you're at the perfect point to start building your own mastery of ski technique!
 

Nic Nic

Certified Ski Diva
Well girls, I left Smuggs today completely dismayed but trying to keep my chin up. Had a really great consult with a tech at the shop. He was willing to give me my 147's back but really wanted me to try the Volkl Pyra in a 163! A longer ski yet! I was very skeptical, but he made a really good argument. He said that the ski itself is longer and I would get the stability at speed that I seek, but that bc of the substantial dual rocker design, it would effectively ski like a shorter ski. He seemed pretty convinced that I would like this ski but I have my doubts (and fears). He was nice though and seemed to know his stuff AND offered to hold my short skis for me while I try these new ones....so it's a no lose situation.

And I am definitely going to take several more lessons, but I can't imagine taking them on the skis I had today! It was truly abysmal.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
And I am definitely going to take several more lessons, but I can't imagine taking them on the skis I had today! It was truly abysmal.

I understand what you're saying, but that's backwards thinking. The point of the lesson is to teach you how to better make use of the ski you are demoing. Then, if the instructor says "wow, that really is too much ski for you," fine. But more than likely, the instructor will give you a few tips, and all of a sudden that ski will feel great. I've had this experience over and over. Don't save the lesson for when you have the perfect ski. Use the lesson to get the most out of the ski.
 

Pequenita

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Even the couple of inches that I added this year is obvious to me in how much harder it is to skate without the backs of my skis hitting each other.

A random thought about this...without getting into details, skate skiing is a different technique from downhill skiing. But, the relevance to your length dilemma is that it makes me wonder if you are needing to skate because you don't have long enough skis for your size to carry you to the next downhill. If you're just getting from one lift to another at the base, that's one thing, but if you've noticed yourself needing to skate when everyone else is sliding, that's food for thought, you know? :smile:
 

abc

Banned
I don't usually come down in such absolute terms. But in this particular case, I think your friendly and enthusiastic shop guy is quite wrong to keep giving you different skis when it's been rather clear by now you really ought to be learning the proper technique. And you'll do the learning a whole better when you're not fight a new ski that you're not familiar with.

As for length, I can ski on a 120cm ski down a black diamond (so could most of the diva's who posted in this thread), though I would need properly fitted boots.

he made a really good argument. He said that the ski itself is longer and I would get the stability at speed that I seek, but that bc of the substantial dual rocker design, it would effectively ski like a shorter ski. He seemed pretty convinced that I would like this ski
Does anyone detect the contradiction right there?

It only works if the "driver" can really lay the ski up on their edges, which our intermediate OP hasn't mention she's particularly good at.

Besides, why the talk of more speed and high speed stability when her wish is to control speed (in narrow trails)???
 
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bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I don't usually come down in such absolute terms. But in this particular case, I think your friendly and enthusiastic shop guy is quite wrong to keep giving you different skis when it's been rather clear by now you really ought to be learning the proper technique. And you'll do the learning a whole better when you're not fight a new ski that you're not familiar with.

As for length, I can ski on a 120cm ski down a black diamond (so could most of the diva's who posted in this thread), though I would need properly fitted boots.


Does anyone detect the contradiction right there?

It only works if the "driver" can really lay the ski up on their edges, which our intermediate OP hasn't mention she's particularly good at.

Besides, why the talk of more speed and high speed stability when her wish is to control speed (in narrow trails)???

You make some good points here. Although people are all over the map in explaining the benefits of rocker and how long you should go with it.
 

litterbug

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I don't usually come down in such absolute terms. But in this particular case, I think your friendly and enthusiastic shop guy is quite wrong to keep giving you different skis when it's been rather clear by now you really ought to be learning the proper technique. And you'll do the learning a whole better when you're not fight a new ski that you're not familiar with.

As for length, I can ski on a 120cm ski down a black diamond (so could most of the diva's who posted in this thread), though I would need properly fitted boots.
Of course you can! Someone like you with solid skills can compensate for very short, very long, very soft, very stiff, or very whatever skis. However, I'm confident that your turns would be compromised on steep ice with 120cm skis, while an intermediate skier without turning skills that go beyond skidding would not be able to compensate. So the comparison really isn't fair.
Does anyone detect the contradiction right there?

It only works if the "driver" can really lay the ski up on their edges, which our intermediate OP hasn't mention she's particularly good at.

Besides, why the talk of more speed and high speed stability when her wish is to control speed (in narrow trails)???
Nobody's talking about having to ski faster, just that when she does she will feel more stable on a longer ski, that she'll find it easier to learn on it on moderate terrain, and with a lesson will find it easier to control her speed on steeps and narrow runs. And we all know there's no need to "lay skis on their edges" in order to turn, unless you're talking about FIS slalom skis. Turning requires edge control, which isn't necessarily carving. What is needed to turn your average recreational ski without skidding and twistsing is knowing where and how the edges engage, how to engage them gently (e.g. with a flatter ski) to control direction and speed, but not radically enough to take you for a wild ride.

What people have been saying is that our OP would find it easier to feel confident and learn good foundational technique on a ski more appropriate to her height and weight, and that taking a lesson to learn how to make the most of them and improve her skills will help her get started.

Who knows, the Pyra could have a bunch of rocker that would make a 163 feel like a 153, or it could be one of those stiff hard-charging skis so many of us love. My general suggestion would be to try skis that are not too different than what she had in a 147, just to limit the number of things to adjust to. And if 163cm is just too much to consider, a 153 is still going to be far superior to a 147. It's all about progress, not perfection, and if Nic Nic would rather go back to 147s than ski 163s, but would try the 153s with instruction, I say go ahead with the 153s.

But whatever @Nic Nic decides to rent, I do very very strongly suggest not going out on her own if it will discourage her from thinking she can do anything more than she's already doing. Instead, I very very strongly suggest scheduling a lesson, even a regular old group lesson, renting/demoing a ski that's like her 147s but longer, and letting someone help her figure out how not to get taking for a ride. I know all too well what it's like to feel unable to advance or learn just because I was on crazy skis for my ability or was thrown into advanced terrain with no instruction way before I was ready.

But honestly, I really don't want to be overly pushy, because I certainly could be wrong. Of course, we're a bunch of opinionated people, and the amount of information and emotion in these threads can be a bit much. I'm sure my long rambly posts don't help much, so I'll try to restrain myself a little. Besides, I just bought every thing I need to make those prosciutto-wrapped muffins on the paleo thread, and I can't wait to try them!
 

abc

Banned
I don't go on and on about technique or equipment on the internet because, if I can't see how someone ski, I'm just talking in a vacuum.

During the development of this thread, it's pretty darn clear she's on skis far too short, and haven't figured out how to use whatever she has regardless. (the latter is apparent when she move into longer skis and couldn't adapt).

So, instead of blindly keep on switching skis by listening to shop technicians who never seen her ski, what she needs is a few lessons with a real person rather than a bunch of internet nerds, however well-intention they might be.

My reference to my ability to ski super short skis was mean to emphasis the point that the OP can still learn the skill on the skis she's comfortable with.
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
A random thought about this...without getting into details, skate skiing is a different technique from downhill skiing. But, the relevance to your length dilemma is that it makes me wonder if you are needing to skate because you don't have long enough skis for your size to carry you to the next downhill. If you're just getting from one lift to another at the base, that's one thing, but if you've noticed yourself needing to skate when everyone else is sliding, that's food for thought, you know? :smile:

I agree. Unless you are skiing at an area with some unusually long flat areas or something, skating isn't something most skiers should need to do often enough to be concerned with the skating performance of their downhill skis.

But to the more important point - I'd agree that lessons are the best idea. :smile:
 

SkiBam

Angel Diva
But to the more important point - I'd agree that lessons are the best idea. :smile:

I couldn't agree with this more. Do take one or more lessons - and I would say do that before spending money on new skis. Good luck and, most important, have fun!
 
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