Tips for helping someone who is too good for his own good

[novium]

Weird title, I know, but let me explain. I have a friend who just recently tried skiing, when through a first timer's lesson and everything, and now is hooked. He doesn't really have money for more lessons, but he wants to go skiing again (and I'm not sure your standard group lesson would do him much good, because he makes the wrong kind of mistakes).

The thing is, he kind of terrifies me on skis. He was a professional dancer, and participates in roller derby and he's a big snow shoer, and he has phenomenal balance. For this reason, the lesson really kind of failed him, because he figured out parallel turns on the first run down the hill (when they were trying to get everyone else to just be comfortable with snowplowing) and they kind of just sent him on his own way (as a result, he has no idea how to stop, other than to just coast, but that doesn't seem to bother him, because he likes going as fast as possible). The problem is, as far as I can tell, is that he can only do very shallow parallel turns, the kind you do when you're taking basically a straight line down a hill. Anything requiring a sharper turn - c turns, or, you know, stopping- he tries to walk through it, like you would taking a sharp turn on skates. (Switching weight to uphill ski momentarily mid-turn so he can reposition the downhill ski into a sharper angle, I guess). This ends in pretty spectacular crashes, which he takes like a champ (well, roller derby). The other thing is that he keeps picking his skis up and crossing them over in back. (I think he's trying to do backspins to stop?). They had him on 150s (he's 6'2), and since he's so strong and his balance is so good, I think that may have been contributing to more of his bad habits, as it they were short enough that he could, say, easily pick his skis up entirely off the ground and cross them over in back almost without them touching.

Anyone have any tips, especially on drills, that might help him *ski* as opposed to trying to apply all his other sports to it?

 

[bounceswoosh]

Is he concerned about the danger to himself and others? If he doesn't see that, it's not going to matter. I assume he's old enough that there's no teenage "center of the universe" attitude to contend with.

 

[novium]

Oh yes, it's just that...the beginner runs at this particular ski resort are kind of too easy? They're very long, very flat, and very wide. A lot of the beginners just fall into thinking skiing means coasting to a stop. (And he can slow down, via snowplow, but it's not the strongest snow plow the world has ever seen). He wants to know how to do these things, but it goes against every instinct he's got, and his instincts say, "this feels like _____" and so he applies the techniques for whatever sport that is, and it kind of allows him to superficially ski better than he actually can, which has made it very hard to teach him anything. After his beginner lesson, I tried to fill in some of the gaps, but they'd feel awkward and uncomfortable, and he'd fall back into the bad habit. For example, I tried to show him a drill I remember from my learning-parallel-turns days, where you coast across a run while holding your uphill ski off the ground, with just the tip touching, but he said that felt very unnatural and wrong and that was kind of the end of that.

So I guess I was wondering if anyone had any ideas of how to help someone overcome that, because I know that once you start skiing the right way, it does feel right and better, but the hard part is getting to the good technique in the first place.

 

[geargrrl]

Does he **want** to learn to ski properly, or do you just think he should?

 

[novium]

Does he **want** to learn to ski properly, or do you just think he should?

Well, he does want to learn how to stop. And he wants to be able to tackle bigger hills. And he's asked me to show him how to do both of these things.

 

[geargrrl]

If he doesn't know how to stop, he shouldn't be out there. Seriously. How many threads do we have on this site about "taken out by out of control skier"?I wish I had some creative ideas for lessons if you can't really afford them. I assume you aren't and have never been a ski instructor? There are problems with just throwing information and drills to someone without understand how the learning builds from basic skills to refining them. You don't want to develop bad habits in him by giving him the wrong thing to focus on.

If nothing else, I'd get him on a correct beginner length ski. 150 is way to short for a 6-2 guy, even if he's a learner.

 

[novium]

Well, as I said, he can turn, coast, and slow down, which seems to be good enough for the beginner's beginner run, it's not like he's bombing down the blue runs. The beginner run is so flat the snowboarders hate hitting it because they often end up taking their boards off and walking.

I'm not an instructor but he's determined to go again anyway. And I was a self-taught beginner for the first year or so of skiing, so I know what a big difference the right drill can make for getting the feel of skiing (as opposed to trying to ice skate/roller blade/water ski on snow), and he's planning on getting a job at the ski resort next season so he can take lessons. But that's awhile away. So ideally, if there were a couple of little funny drills that he could try and see if they help him feel the difference between X and skiing (something that'd help him feel how skis can turn, or the difference and edge can make, or how much stabler skis feel when your weight is forward), I' d like to be able to point him in that direction (maybe with youtube videos) so he could give it a try in between impressive, cinematic-looking tumbles.

 

[abc]

Side slip, falling leave, hocky stop. That should do it.

 

[Serafina]

Garlands are a good way for someone to get the feeling for how the skis will flex and turn you, and they're also a good way to demonstrate what's involve with a safe stop. And they demonstrate the value in traversing the hill for green skiers.

 

[vickie]

I am appalled by parts of this situation.

Snowplowing is not just a technique for beginners and that is to be abandoned as soon as one learns to ski parallel. Your friend should have stayed with the class and learned how to snowplow. In that class, he would also have learned how to use the skis' inside edges to stop, via a wedge.

For this reason, the lesson really kind of failed him, because he figured out parallel turns on the first run down the hill (when they were trying to get everyone else to just be comfortable with snowplowing) and they kind of just sent him on his own way

Really? The instructor sent him away? Or he chose to leave because he was so far ahead of everyone else? My never-ever lesson included 3 guys who left after half of the 1-hour class because they had already gotten everything they needed. If your friend is like those 3, there is little you are going to be able to do to help him.

The other thing is that he keeps picking his skis up and crossing them over in back. (I think he's trying to do backspins to stop?).

This sounds as if he's using the skis like big ice skates ... pick my foot up, point my toe out slightly and push off from the other foot.

One thing that may help is for him to learn how the skis turn ... Mountainxtc provided a great drill in this thread for learning how to initiate a turn. That thread also includes a link to information on "falling leaf" which others have recommended for him. And another thread that might have some useful info for him.

I wish you a lot of luck ... as well as all of the others on the mountain with him. What it sounds like you're trying to do, though, is use drills to get him to give up the skills he uses in other sports. He might be better served by starting with a blank slate, learning the basics and following instruction explicitly, then seeing parallels with other sports and incorporating some of that into his skiing as he progresses.

I was already reading books when I entered first grade. The curriculum called for "picture books" ... no words. But they didn't move me up to 2nd or 3rd grade just because I could read. There were other things that would be taught in first grade that I needed to learn.

 

[geargrrl]

Really? The instructor sent him away? Or he chose to leave because he was so far ahead of everyone else? My never-ever lesson included 3 guys who left after half of the 1-hour class because they had already gotten everything they needed. If your friend is like those 3, there is little you are going to be able to do to help him.

I've heard over and over from coaches that the worst ones are the one that think they don't have anything to learn.

 

[Lilywhite]

Difficult situation, if you turn round and say- actually mate your damn dangerous, you may have the ingredients for the cake figured out in your mind but you are forgetting to crack the eggs and the oven is set to the wrong temperature he is likely to think YOUR the one with the problem!
Has he been introduced to the skiers code and the responsibilities that come with it? Maybe go through that with him, if he can't afford lessons (sound like he can't afford not to BTW) then he certainly can't afford to have his lift ticket pulled, worse, six weeks off work while a broken leg heals or worse still a lawsuit when he seriously injured someone else or their children. If he can't come to a complete stop at will without a run out he has no business being on the hill.
I'm afraid if I knew him I would call him a selfish bastard, tell him I didn't much care if he doesn't enjoy the lessons but if he won't learn enough to at least keep other people safe then he can ski on his own but then I am not known for my diplomacy when someone is acting like a spoilt brat.

 

[abc]

Everyone learns differently. So he didn't fit in a lesson designed for a group of uncordinated couch patatos!

I wish my instructors didn't just walk me through the "standard" curriculum. I was ready to quit skiing (I actually did quit downhill skiing, did exclusive xc instead) until I met my then boy friend who's not a ski instructor yet an excellent teacher (he teaches in classroom settings). I say he's an excellent teacher because he pay attention to individual learning style...

I'm not the only one who couldn't hack snowplow despite many beginer lessons. Another of my co-worker had the same problem. Her brother solve it by having her go straight to parallel turns. Same as my boy friend had me do. In both of our cases, we figured out how the edge works by learning parallel turns! After that, snowplow is easy.

Now this reminds me, there's a school of thought that entirely bypass snowplow and start with parallel. Internet learning isn't what I endorse for skiing. But if he can't afford lessons, maybe try to dig that up on the internet and have him read it?

 

[maggie198]

Weird title, I know, but let me explain. I have a friend who just recently tried skiing, when through a first timer's lesson and everything, and now is hooked. He doesn't really have money for more lessons, but he wants to go skiing again (and I'm not sure your standard group lesson would do him much good, because he makes the wrong kind of mistakes).

The thing is, he kind of terrifies me on skis ...

Anyone have any tips, especially on drills, that might help him *ski* as opposed to trying to apply all his other sports to it?

My best tip is for him to take another group lesson, but not a first-timer's. Group lessons are relatively inexpensive, and he'll learn good habits instead of bad. Many of us here take lessons, even advanced skiers. He obviously does not know enough to tackle steeper stuff yet.

 

[novium]

He's actually a very good sport. He never thought he was too good for the lessons, and he didn't leave the lesson, the instructor just said he was good to go and that was kind of it. He stayed with the group as they did their runs, but that was it. There wasn't any, "oh, you've almost got the hang of this, but you need to turn into the hill more" or "that's a really bad habit, don't do that." I was extremely disappointed. I've taken a number of lessons at the resort at the intermediate/advanced level and they've always been great.

Thank you for the drill links, I'll pass them on.

I am appalled by parts of this situation.

Snowplowing is not just a technique for beginners and that is to be abandoned as soon as one learns to ski parallel. Your friend should have stayed with the class and learned how to snowplow. In that class, he would also have learned how to use the skis' inside edges to stop, via a wedge.

Really? The instructor sent him away? Or he chose to leave because he was so far ahead of everyone else? My never-ever lesson included 3 guys who left after half of the 1-hour class because they had already gotten everything they needed. If your friend is like those 3, there is little you are going to be able to do to help him.



This sounds as if he's using the skis like big ice skates ... pick my foot up, point my toe out slightly and push off from the other foot.

One thing that may help is for him to learn how the skis turn ... Mountainxtc provided a great drill in this thread for learning how to initiate a turn. That thread also includes a link to information on "falling leaf" which others have recommended for him. And another thread that might have some useful info for him.

I wish you a lot of luck ... as well as all of the others on the mountain with him. What it sounds like you're trying to do, though, is use drills to get him to give up the skills he uses in other sports. He might be better served by starting with a blank slate, learning the basics and following instruction explicitly, then seeing parallels with other sports and incorporating some of that into his skiing as he progresses.

I was already reading books when I entered first grade. The curriculum called for "picture books" ... no words. But they didn't move me up to 2nd or 3rd grade just because I could read. There were other things that would be taught in first grade that I needed to learn.

That's a really good way to describe it.

 

[Lilywhite]

Sounds like the instructor is at fault if he/she didn't at least check he could stop under control before sending him away.

 

[novium]

Difficult situation, if you turn round and say- actually mate your damn dangerous, you may have the ingredients for the cake figured out in your mind but you are forgetting to crack the eggs and the oven is set to the wrong temperature he is likely to think YOUR the one with the problem!
Has he been introduced to the skiers code and the responsibilities that come with it? Maybe go through that with him, if he can't afford lessons (sound like he can't afford not to BTW) then he certainly can't afford to have his lift ticket pulled, worse, six weeks off work while a broken leg heals or worse still a lawsuit when he seriously injured someone else or their children. If he can't come to a complete stop at will without a run out he has no business being on the hill.
I'm afraid if I knew him I would call him a selfish bastard, tell him I didn't much care if he doesn't enjoy the lessons but if he won't learn enough to at least keep other people safe then he can ski on his own but then I am not known for my diplomacy when someone is acting like a spoilt brat.

He's not really a brat, he just doesn't know any better. A lot of it's the roller derby, I think, because he kind of expects crashes. And we were up there on a very slow day, so it was trivially easy to steer clear of others. And if say, someone had crashed in front of him or cut in front of him quickly, he'd have probably bailed out by throwing himself on the ground than hit them. I am far, far, far more worried that he's going to seriously injure himself (especially his knees, with that crossing-in-back business) than that he's going to injure anyone else.

 

[Lilywhite]

novium, from your initial post and the use of the word terrifies I maybe got the wrong end of the stick, I couldn't see the instructor dismissing someone to self learn if they can't even stop without either a yard sale or a runout.
Even instructors have to learn to snowplough properly, a friend took her BASI level 1 not so long ago and was quite surprised how long they spent going over the snowplough to make sure instructors could teach it safely/correctly. A lot of the trainee instructors had flaws in their own technique they had to work out first.
Maybe try and get him to slow everything down, it makes things harder not easier and when your travelling that slowly your body has to start adjusting where it is on the skis to keep momentum on flattish hills and you need to be in real control to keep it slow on steeper sections.
Side slips will give him the idea of edges for stopping. Another edge drill I remember from the first week of lessons was to to turn 360 degrees on the mountain using edges only to step round. I hated doing it because I was always scared I'd go flying backwards down the hill, but it meant I understood the fall line and got out of the habit of leaning backward into the hill. Boring drill but might help.

 

[mustski]

My DS had a friend who went directly to parallel turns. I was teaching him basic snowplow on the bunny run and he just translated that directly into parallel on his first day. When we returned home, I told his mom that he was amazing for a beginner but needed lessons right away. His athleticism meant that bad habits would develop more quickly because his brain was already moving to the next level. Your friend is probably also a gifted athlete. If so, he needs lessons sooner rather than later or he will invent his own way of skiing.

 

[Serafina]

On second thought, you might want to consider just getting him a private lesson. Then you don't have the issues with him getting bored because he's light-years ahead of everyone else in the class, and you don't have the issues with turning him loose on the hill with an incomplete skill set.