Tight Calves or Bracing Issue?

[edelweissmaedl]

The thread @fgor created about crouching started conversation about leg bracing which got some thoughts and questions going. I feel like the big muscle focus is always quad burn from being backseat. My issue is always calf tightness/soreness in the outer lower calf area. I don‘t have calf pain while skiing and as another Diva mentioned I wear flats and go barefoot a lot so don’t view myself as someone with tight calves. Even when looking up typical calf stretches they don’t seem to address the area I get soreness/tightness in. Could tightness alone cause this discomfort or should I be looking to a form cause like leg bracing as the root of my discomfort. If it seems like bracing is the likely culprit what as good resources to recognize and improve the issue?

@contesstant @shadoj hoping you both might be willing to chime in here.

 

[Jenny]

Is it in the peroneal tendon area?

 

[edelweissmaedl]

Is it in the peroneal tendon area?

View attachment 17819

It's actually the upper (just under the knee) and lower. It could be the bottom of the peroneus longus muscle portion....the tendons shown are lower than the problem zones.

 

[shadoj]

Is it in the peroneal tendon area?

I've been having a tightness flair-up in my Peroneus brevis (outer lower calf) lately. That's my smaller foot with more issues. I have high-ish arches & loose joints. I'm getting footbeds tomorrow, so I will report back after that. @edelweissmaedl, is that where you're having pain?

 

[shadoj]

It's actually the upper (just under the knee) and lower. It could be the bottom of the peroneus longus muscle portion....the tendons shown are lower than the problem zones.

That does sound more like the longus. Ouch.

 

[rivarunnamomma]

@[SIZE=4]edelweissmaedl[/SIZE]
Have you considered heel lifts? Lots of women benefit from a simple, low profile insert - only 1 cm or so - just in the heel. Moves the weight forward on the foot a bit, and improves ability to drive the front of the ski boot and reduces the load on calf muscles. I put them in all my alpine, touring and xc boots and my feet/legs are instantly happier. Plus I have more control over my ski as a result :-)

 

[scandium]

Do you have footbeds, and how much movement do your calves have in your boots? I presume the issue predates your new boots if it's an ongoing thing. It sounds like it's either peroneal or possibly soleus, both of which in my experience are somewhat tricky and painful areas to get to for massage and stretching.

 

[Scribble]

I get this pretty badly if the cuff angle of my boot isn't adjusted properly or if my liners aren't settled in or adjusted just right. The pain starts before I even click into my skis, and I'm ready to quit after 1-2 runs.

I'll keep the top buckle and power strap a little looser at first to let my foot settle in, but with my ZipFit liners this can backfire - they'll re-mold themselves and hold my foot too far forward if I don't get them buckled down quickly. I am glad that they make wearing ski boots possible for me, but TBH I get so frustrated dealing with how finicky they are!

(edited to correct a spelling error!)

 

[Jilly]

Not quite sure I understand "leg bracing". I haven't gone back to other thread yet. And the question does remain....footbeds?

 

[edelweissmaedl]

Do you have footbeds, and how much movement do your calves have in your boots? I presume the issue predates your new boots if it's an ongoing thing. It sounds like it's either peroneal or possibly soleus, both of which in my experience are somewhat tricky and painful areas to get to for massage and stretching.

I have custom footbeds, heal lifts and yes it predates my current boots. I have larger calves especially compared to my boot size, not big enough to need a cuff adjustment or buckle extension though. My top buckles and Booster strap are snug as my main focus is always ensuring my heal is locked down. (I went to Taos for 6 days last year and did notice my calves finally started to feel ok on the second to last or last day.)

My previous boots were the right length, but never locked my heals in enough which caused a lot of heal lift/heal float which caused me to have to constantly focus on balance my movement. i had hoped with the much improved heal snugness that maybe that would resolve the calf issues, but it doesn’t seem to have helped that.

@Jilly I'm not 100% I know what bracing is either, but page 6 of the referenced thread is where it's mentioned. I was taking it as using my lower leg to get me through the turn. (ie. not throwing my upper body around to turn, but instead using my lower leg/calf more than I should to influence the turn?) I'm not sure if I do that or not or how likely that is, but trying to explore how to dig into a solution as I've had trouble finding any posts or information of similar struggles.

@Scribble Your complaint seems to be the more common one. Obvious pain while in the ski boots themselves.

 

[liquidfeet]

@edelweissmaedl, I'm wondering if you overuse your calf muscles and that causes your discomfort.

When they calf muscles contract, they open the ankle to point the toes ("plantarflexing"). If the foot is held in a ski boot attached to skis, and the skis are solidly planted while sliding on the snow, that calf contraction opens the ankle, moves the knee backwards, and tilts the lower leg back.

When running or walking, where the shoe is not solidly planted on the ground, the contracting calf muscle points the toe and lifts the heel. This movement is what propels the walker/runner forward. Calf muscle contraction is essential to forward propulsion when walking and running.

When skiing, the contracting calf muscle opens up the ankle inside the boot, moves the knee backwards and tilts the lower leg backwards at its top, moves the body weight backwards, pushes the calf against the back of the cuff, and lifts the heel inside the boot if it's not held down by tightly clamped buckles. All of this puts the skier in the back seat. Does any of this sound familiar?

The way to stop contracting the habit of calf muscles when skiing is to do the opposite, close the ankle consciously by contracting the anterior tibialis muscle on the front of the shin. This closes the ankle, tilts the lower leg forward, brings the knee forward, and puts the shin in contact with the tongue of the boot. Maintaining this contraction also helps push the heel back and down onto the floor of the boot. The visible result for onlookers is the skier's lower leg tilts forward, not upright and definitely not backwards. Forward is good. Upright and backwards are not.

Actively closing the ankle ("dorsiflexing") is not something anyone walking or running does. Horse back riding requires it, but I don't know of another sport that does. So it's an unfamiliar thing to learn to do when building skiing skills. Do you work on keeping shin-tongue contact as you ski? How successful are you at this? Do you ever feel back-of-cuff contact with your calf?

 

[edelweissmaedl]

@edelweissmaedl, I'm wondering if you overuse your calf muscles and that causes your discomfort.

When skiing, the contracting calf muscle opens up the ankle inside the boot, moves the knee backwards and tilts the lower leg backwards at its top, moves the body weight backwards, pushes the calf against the back of the cuff, and lifts the heel inside the boot if it's not held down by tightly clamped buckles. All of this puts the skier in the back seat. Does any of this sound familiar?

When my previous boots had too much space for my heels a (maybe worse) version of this was happening. Because I had no rear foot control my forefoot was the only area being held in place. As my heals would float (going over a hill when you defy gravity for a split second) my muscle memory would go into a releve to try and maintain balance/control (which was obviously the opposite of dorsiflexion). I would also say I was more likely to get quad burn so know there was more backseat happening.

The way to stop contracting the calf muscles when skiing is to do the opposite, close the ankle consciously with the anterior tibialis muscle, in order to get the front of the shin to maintain contact with the tongue of the boot. The visible result for onlookers is the skier's lower leg tilts forward, not upright and definitely not backwards. Forward is good. Upright and backwards are not.

Once I had boots that held my heals in place I knew I would need to focus on keeping my feet flat on the soles of my boots and squashing that desire to lift further when my heals would lift. I feel like the improved fit helped me overcome that sensation. Just because I thought that was not longer happening doesn't mean it's not happening in a more subtle way I suppose. I do best when pulling up my toes to dorsiflex.

Actively "dorsiflexing" is not something anyone walking or running does. Horse back riding requires it, but I don't know of another sport that does. So it's an unfamiliar thing to learn to do when building skiing skills. Do you work on keeping shin-tongue contact as you ski? How successful are you at this? Do you ever feel back-of-cuff contact with your calf?

I do try to maintain shin-tongue contact. I know I am not successful all of the time. Sometimes I feel contact and sometimes it fades. I couldn't really say I notice back of cuff contact, beyond the general the boot is clamped to my leg factor

 

[liquidfeet]

Another reason for pain in the calf is too-tight top cuff buckle. Maybe that's it. Your Boosters are inside the shell, right?

 

[edelweissmaedl]

Another reason for pain in the calf is too-tight top cuff buckle. Maybe that's it.

But if the boot snuggness while skiing doesn't cause discomfort would it cause discomfort later? (ie. I over buckled my boots once years ago and I was in terrible pain riding up the gondola, so I feel like I know what too tight is)

 

[liquidfeet]

This is what "bracing" means. The skier lines up the outside ski-foot-hip-shoulder in a straight line as the turn comes around by pushing the outside ski outwards and leaning in. This means the whole body is leaning inside the turn as a unit. This is one way to get the outside ski edged, and it falsely promises to provide grip. Usually there is too much weight on the inside ski, and the outside ski skids away as the forces increase. I'm posting this because of the thread title.

@edelweissmaedl, have you been told you are bracing? It's quite commong, but as far as I know it doesn't usually cause calf pain.

 

[liquidfeet]

But if the boot snuggness while skiing doesn't cause discomfort would it cause discomfort later? (ie. I over buckled my boots once years ago and I was in terrible pain riding up the gondola, so I feel like I know what too tight is)

Don't think so. The pain is concurrent, as far as I've known. But I could be wrong.

 

[Pequenita]

@edelweissmaedl , I may have started the "bracing" line in the other thread. In the plainest terms, "bracing" is when the downhill leg is straight (and has no business being straight because it's not that steep a pitch) and locked in a turn. In my case, bracing was throwing me into the backseat and made me late on my next turn. The moment I started consciously training myself to keep that downhill leg bent, my ankle closed (the topic of the thread, I think), and many other things were corrected.

Having been bracing one of my legs for nearly 40 years of skiing and not having the pain you describe, I am inclined to say that it's not the cause of your muscle ache.

 

[edelweissmaedl]

@liquidfeet I have not been told I have a bracing problem. @Pequenita Thanks for sharing your thoughts on potential calf strain/pain and bracing (or rather lack of)

It sounds like I may have latched on to the bracing idea incorrectly, but am grateful for the additional discussion generated. @liquidfeet Thanks for your explanation about dorsiflexion and the anterior tibialis. That gives me more to pay attention to next time I am out.

What causes a person to contract the calf muscle and open up the ankle instead of the intended closing of the ankle? Muscle memory? Since that is what happens all the time when walking or running?

 

[Jilly]

@edelweissmaedl - you've mentioned that in the past you've had issues with seating your heel in your boot. So if you are standing in your boots on your skis, where do you feel the weight is on your foot. Toes, heel, arch?

@liquidfeet - I wondering if her weight through her foot in back, in the heel (to keep it in place) along with raising her toes....is causing this. @edelweissmaedl -your weight should be through your arch, or even a bit ahead of it. But not on your toes. As someone said in another thread...ready position for tennis, or bouncing a ball (dribbling in basketball). There is hardly any weight on your heel.

 

[liquidfeet]

What causes a person to contract the calf muscle and open up the ankle instead of the intended closing of the ankle? Muscle memory? Since that is what happens all the time when walking or running?

Well, one reason, not sure it's yours, is fear of losing control of one's downhill speed. Plantarflexing accompanies pushing the feet out in front to brake while leaning back uphill.

The walking-running habits set one up for plantarflexing, since both dorsi- and plantarflexing are used. Staying dorsiflexed is totally unfamiliar and needs a lot of concentration to keep going as one's dealing with all the other stuff we deal with as we ski. Until the skier feels the advantage of dorsiflexing, it can seem somewhat pointless.

Keeping the lower legs straight up from the skis at 90º comes naturally if one thinks of skiing as something one does while "standing" on skis. When we stand in the kitchen, we keep our lower legs 90º to the floor, so it's natural when we "stand" on skis. Once a skier discovers that we don't stand on skis, but that we move from foot to foot and do stuff with the skis as we do that, then the possibilities of what to do with the ankles opens up. Or it should, since we aren't doing what we do when we stand in the kitchen any more, and we aren't running or walking.

Or here's another reason some open up the ankles... they have been told to balance their weight on the balls of their feet. Opening the ankles, as if they are trying to press down on the brakes with the front of their foot, is their way of standing on the balls-of-feet. This is a very bad dysfunctional idea, but it sure is common.

These are some of the thoughts I've been thinking as I try to figure these blockages out. Some blockages are just mysterious.