The effect of wide skis on knees

[liquidfeet]

I used to get sore knees every weekend when I skied. I'd drive home (3 hours) and be able to feel the heat radiating from my inflamed knees with my hands, right through my pants. The skis were 68 at the waist.

I now know it wasn't the waist width of my skis causing that. I also had quivering quads at the end of a good day, and they would develop a good warm burn on the way home in the car. I'd pop ibuprophen as if it were candy, and glory in the endorphin rush during the drive. "No pain no gain" was my mantra. I kinda gloried in the physical duress, thinking of how strong I was to endure that.

I didn't realize it, but I was skiing backseat. Now that I don't do that any more, the knee problem doesn't happen, nor the quad burn. I now glory in how easy skiing is. It took a long time to get to this point. I had to go through this with my downhill running too. Getting "backseat" running downhill made my knees tender and hot, just as it did with skiing. I don't do that any more either, but that also took a LOT of effort to change.

Maintaining good form isn't always easy for me, though. Put me on unfamiliar and scary terrain (steep bowls out west) and I go back to the tails of my skis. VERY frustrating. Personally disappointing. Evidently old habits never ever die, they just get overwritten. And resurface when least wanted.

@tinymoose, I don't know if this could be part of your issue. What do you think?

 

[tinymoose]

I used to get sore knees every weekend when I skied. I'd drive home (3 hours) and be able to feel the heat radiating from my inflamed knees with my hands, right through my pants. The skis were 68 at the waist.

I now know it wasn't the waist width of my skis causing that. I also had quivering quads at the end of a good day, and they would develop a good warm burn on the way home in the car. I'd pop ibuprophen as if it were candy, and glory in the endorphin rush during the drive. "No pain no gain" was my mantra. I kinda gloried in the physical duress, thinking of how strong I was to endure that.

I didn't realize it, but I was skiing backseat. Now that I don't do that any more, the knee problem doesn't happen, nor the quad burn. I now glory in how easy skiing is. It took a long time to get to this point. I had to go through this with my downhill running too. Getting "backseat" running downhill made my knees tender and hot, just as it did with skiing. I don't do that any more either, but that also took a LOT of effort to change.

Maintaining good form isn't always easy for me, though. Put me on unfamiliar and scary terrain (steep bowls out west) and I go back to the tails of my skis. VERY frustrating. Personally disappointing. Evidently old habits never ever die, they just get overwritten. And resurface when least wanted.

@tinymoose, I don't know if this could be part of your issue. What do you think?

I don't think I'm in the backseat? My quads don't usually bother me. I mean, I'm sure I end up there now and then because who doesn't, but I don't think it's a chronic part of my skiing. My knees also don't sound quite like yours. They're not hot and there's no pain radiating from them. I don't even really notice them when I'm skiing or walking, just when I navigate stairs. If I'm going up stairs, they'll feel a bit stiff and sore, but nothing beyond that. They also don't faze me at gymnastics during ski season; no pain there that I can really remember. It usually fades about a month or so after ski season ends and won't return again until I've got a few ski days under my belt in the next season.

 

[vanhoskier]

Personally, wider skis generally hurt my knees. But, like @nopoleskier, the Z90 does not, and SL skis can also make my knees ache. Perhaps this is because I am “encouraged” by the SL ski to angulate more, straining the knees more.

I think there also can be some knee strain occurring over time that is not acutely detected at first. And us older skiers who are more prone to arthritis in the knees can feel it more. A lot of people on wider (>90mm) skis who claim “no knee issues!” may not actually be putting the skis up on edge like they think they are.

Skiing is a funny sport in regards to perception vs. reality.

 

[marzNC]

Do narrow skis still put some level of torque on your knees though? Just less because narrower?

Based on the measurements taken in the case study, the answer seems to be "yes" to this question. It's a function of applied mechanics in terms of what it takes to get skis of a certain dimension up on edge. However, there is a range for the turn radius of skis that are the same width. Probably more of a range for mid-fat and fat skis than carvers but I'd have to look.

So the rest of my season was spent on my race skis, and I still developed some knee stiffness/soreness over the course of the ski season.

How much do you work on hamstring strength during the pre-season?

 

[mountainwest]

Mine have demo bindings on them. If I'm at Targhee late November (as I typically am) you might be able to pry them out of my hands for a run or two I'm on a 165. I've skied the 93s and if I recall correctly, they come in tweener lengths for me (161 or 169) and the 169s at that width with the beefy construction was just more than I wanted to deal with. I got really tired on them. It's been a full season since I skied them, though, so I might not feel that way now. The 88s are magical, though. Crud, powder, slush, scraped off hard pack, baby bumps, I declared almost every time I skied them, "man I LOVE these skis!"

Feeling more swayed towards the 88s now! If I haven't bought one or the other by late November, I will try to take you up on the prying offer!! The ski length choices are also a main factor I am considering - I am replacing a pair of skis that are 158 length that now feel too short, and 165 would be more ideal for me. I demoed the Santa Ana 93s in 169 length because the 161s were too close to what I already had/wanted to replace, but I did wish there was something inbetween. However the beefy construction was something I really liked about the 93s in 169 length.

 

[vanhoskier]

I don't think I'm in the backseat? My quads don't usually bother me. I mean, I'm sure I end up there now and then because who doesn't, but I don't think it's a chronic part of my skiing. My knees also don't sound quite like yours. They're not hot and there's no pain radiating from them. I don't even really notice them when I'm skiing or walking, just when I navigate stairs. If I'm going up stairs, they'll feel a bit stiff and sore, but nothing beyond that. They also don't faze me at gymnastics during ski season; no pain there that I can really remember. It usually fades about a month or so after ski season ends and won't return again until I've got a few ski days under my belt in the next season.

I am guessing, partly based on skiing with you, is that your knees are sore after skiing your SL skis because you angulate quite a bit, more so than the average skier (thanks to race clinic)! And, your SL skis have a shorter turn radius so you are, well, making the effort to get them up on edge over and over through each short radius turn (but that is a guess on my part). I think how you describe your knee discomfort is what I call “creaky knees”...which are not painful or inflamed.

Also, you are not 50. Age is a factor here. Joints do show wear and tear over time. But, you may be one of the lucky ones who won’t get arthritis in their knees.

These days, I can get knee pain or inflammation unexpectedly. A hike a few weeks ago up to some blueberry patches involved some steep uphill routes.....going down after my berry bingeing caused my right knee to swell a bit and it has been talking ever since. 10 years ago that would never have happened.

 

[tinymoose]

How much do you work on hamstring strength during the pre-season?

Not anything beyond going to gymnastics. I'm not particularly good about working out for the sake of working out.

 

[marzNC]

Not anything beyond going to gymnastics. I'm not particularly good about working out for the sake of working out.

Been there about not being interested in working out . . . 20-30 years ago when I was still playing sports like tennis, but not skiing much at all.

An exercise that's easy to do anywhere, anytime is a wall sit. Good for hamstrings and quads apparently. Remember reading advice of starting at 30 sec and working towards 2 min during pre-season.

https://theworkoutdigest.com/wall-sit-benefits/

https://www.wikihow.com/Do-Wall-Sits

I agree with @vanhoskier that your technique is solid but is based on trying to carve as much as possible because that's what racers do. Since I've been doing Taos Ski Weeks, which are geared towards handling bumps and ungroomed terrain more than anything else, I've heard more than one instructor talk about the continuum from carving (tipping skis on edge) to rotation (flat skis). Definitely easier on the knees to rotate at the top of a bump instead of trying to ski a zipper line.

 

[contesstant]

Personally, wider skis generally hurt my knees. But, like @nopoleskier, the Z90 does not, and SL skis can also make my knees ache. Perhaps this is because I am “encouraged” by the SL ski to angulate more, straining the knees more.

I think there also can be some knee strain occurring over time that is not acutely detected at first. And us older skiers who are more prone to arthritis in the knees can feel it more. A lot of people on wider (>90mm) skis who claim “no knee issues!” may not actually be putting the skis up on edge like they think they are.

Skiing is a funny sport in regards to perception vs. reality.

Absolutely strain that is not detected first is huge. I'm paying for that now!

Feeling more swayed towards the 88s now! If I haven't bought one or the other by late November, I will try to take you up on the prying offer!! The ski length choices are also a main factor I am considering - I am replacing a pair of skis that are 158 length that now feel too short, and 165 would be more ideal for me. I demoed the Santa Ana 93s in 169 length because the 161s were too close to what I already had/wanted to replace, but I did wish there was something inbetween. However the beefy construction was something I really liked about the 93s in 169 length.

OK, if I'm up, I'll contact you. OR remind me! I have some Sheeva 10s with a demo binding, too. Trying to sell those, although they are 102 under foot. What's your BSL?

 

[mountainwest]

OK, if I'm up, I'll contact you. OR remind me! I have some Sheeva 10s with a demo binding, too. Trying to sell those, although they are 102 under foot. What's your BSL?

Will do! I have a pair of Coalition Snow SOS skis that are 101 underfoot. BSL is 285.

 

[tinymoose]

I agree with @vanhoskier that your technique is solid but is based on trying to carve as much as possible because that's what racers do. Since I've been doing Taos Ski Weeks, which are geared towards handling bumps and ungroomed terrain more than anything else, I've heard more than one instructor talk about the continuum from carving (tipping skis on edge) to rotation (flat skis). Definitely easier on the knees to rotate at the top of a bump instead of trying to ski a zipper line.

I think part of that is we mostly have groomers here so I use them to practice what we do in race clinic. Plus it's just fun to ski a groomer like that. But as far as bumps, I definitely don't try to carve those. My general MO is to slow down using the back side of the bump and then turn around the side of it and then slide down to the backside of the next bump, rinse and repeat. @vanhoskier and I did see this racer girl carve some bumps once at Jack Frost. It was a thing of beauty.

 

[aurafan]

This thread is fascinating for me because my experience seems to be opposite from that article and from what many of you write.
I'm now 73 and only started skiing when I was 35. When I was younger, I skied narrower, longer skis, and had far more trouble with my knees. When I was in my 40s, an MD said after an x-ray that my knees looked to be in their 80s. There's lots wrong with both, including a torn ACL that healed itself (yes--it was looked at by a top surgeon: he said to watch it and somehow it healed).
I have been skiing nothing but wide skis for the last 10-15 years and have far less swelling after skiing than I used to when younger! I ski at Squaw (mostly) and Alpine (occasionally). Favorite runs: Black or high blue groomed, with some snow on them. Granite groomers / groomers off the summit chair at Alpine. Weight/height: 120-122 / 5'4.5.
My favorite skis: Volkl Kiku 2012, length 163, 137-106-122 with elongated profile rocker. Before these: rossi b3 2007,120-83-110. Don't like them as much, as the Kiku let me turn more where I wish, but still ski them as back-up.
Today I demoed DPS Zelda, Elan ripstick 102, Scott slight 93 and scott scrapper 95. Loved the scott scrapper 95--felt like part of my body, instead of something long and stiff on my feet! Felt free to let them go!

 

[Jilly]

I wish I could agree with you, but I 've spend the last 3 days with my AO braced on after spending a day on my 95C's. We had new snow on New Year's eve day. I skied my Atomic 95C's. The new snow, the resulting bumps all called for that tool. I suffered through a 1/2 day on New Year's day knowing that they had groomed everything, with my new Nordica Dobermans. My knees were killing me. I spent Thursday through Saturday with my brace on. I've never had this kind of pain from skiing before. Until that day I had been skiing my tuned down race skis. So I know it was the wider skis.

 

[marzNC]

I'm now 73 and only started skiing when I was 35. When I was younger, I skied narrower, longer skis, and had far more trouble with my knees. When I was in my 40s, an MD said after an x-ray that my knees looked to be in their 80s. There's lots wrong with both, including a torn ACL that healed itself (yes--it was looked at by a top surgeon: he said to watch it and somehow it healed).
I have been skiing nothing but wide skis for the last 10-15 years and have far less swelling after skiing than I used to when younger!

Were the narrower, longer skis what are commonly called "straight skis"? Recent articles are comparing skis under 80 underfoot with those over 95mm or so, but assumes that all skis are current designs and materials from the last decade.

My primary ski buddy was an advanced/expert skier in the 1960s when he was in high school. He's taken semi-private lessons with me in recent years to learn how to ski more efficiently with current design skis. His day-to-day skis are 90 underfoot. Took a couple seasons with the help of very experienced instructors to make the small adjustments needed. He has a bad knee from an old injury and surgery. He has no interest in using wider skis unless there is fresh powder over 12 inches deep.

 

[mustski]

I spent the last 3 days comparing my Hell's Belles (92 waist), my Renoun Z90s, and my Volkl 90eights. Hands down the 90eights are the easiest to ski. Of the three, they are the most versatile and able in all terrain and all conditions - they just do everything well. (Note: this is west coast so no real ice just super firm groomers). I moved the bindings on my Renouns forward a notch and they skied much better. However, they are less forgiving than either the 90eights or the Hell's Belles. I think of them as "good for me" skis as they are pretty demanding in terms of technique. As for knees, I don't notice any difference between the three, but I have good knees.

 

[aurafan]

Were the narrower, longer skis what are commonly called "straight skis"? Recent articles are comparing skis under 80 underfoot with those over 95mm or so, but assumes that all skis are current designs and materials from the last decade.

This is an important point! Hadn't thought of this. Of course those were old style skis... So perhaps I should try somewhat narrower ones. But it seems to me that most people here at Squaw who are high intermediate and above use relatively wide skis.

 

[marzNC]

This is an important point! Hadn't thought of this. Of course those were old style skis... So perhaps I should try somewhat narrower ones. But it seems to me that most people here at Squaw who are high intermediate and above use relatively wide skis.

What region of interest when it comes to considering "relatively wide skis" is an important point for any discussion of ski width. What makes sense for intermediates in the Rockies and what makes sense in the mid-Atlantic, midwest, or northeast is quite different. For a Squaw local to own skis that are mid-70s would probably be too narrow, in particular for an advanced intermediate. For a skier with a season pass to a mountain in Vermont, skis that are over 90mm are probably too wide as a daily driver.

There was a point when the "cool" skis were getting wider and wider. Seems as if the trend has been going back to somewhat narrower skis in recent years. For example, the BP88 and BP98 are very popular. Blizzard came out with the BP82 for the 2019-20 season. More for northeast and midwest conditions. The current design of the BP88 has been popular in multiple regions for several years, from soft snow in the wide to hardpack in New England.

Below are stories based on my experience from the last decade (over 50) as I started skiing 25+ days both locally (southeast, mid-Atlantic) and out west (mostly Rockies).

My first skis that I considered "all-mountain" were 75 underfoot with a wide shovel and tail, 128-75-108. I was using them in northern VA at my home mountain and during trips to Utah. Wasn't doing lessons regularly then and getting in 10-15 days out west per season. If there was more than 6 inches of fresh snow, I rented wider skis. I didn't have a knee problem back then. I bought the next pair of all-mountain skis based on a personal demo day at Big Sky. Those were the original Black Pearls, 88mm (bought used from a Diva). While I had the Black Pearls, I had a knee injury (not skiing). After rehab I instinctively wanted narrower and shorter skis for the first few ski days at my local hill. Used skis I'd bought for my growing daughter that were 72mm and 10cm shorter. They were easier to turn.

Fast forward to now, which is seven seasons after the knee rehab. I'm skiing out west 25+ days, including a couple weeks during late season at Alta. The all-mountain skis I own for skiing out west are 85 underfoot. What's different is not my knee (fully healed since 2013, no pain issues), but the fact that I've taken quite a few lessons as an advanced older skier. I can confidently use my Stormrider 85 skis in all sorts of soft snow conditions, including powder up to a couple feet deep. Although I usually rent powder skis for more than a foot of fresh snow when I get lucky. However, for skiing in the northeast I stick to my Absolut Joys that are 78mm and 10cm shorter because they are easier to turn (and lighter to carry). For spring skiing with temps in the 40s, I'm happy with my old Black Pearls (2011) in any region. Although one reason is that I treated them with DPS Phantom and am keeping them as "rock skis" for early and late season. Had a very good time with them at Alta last April.

 

[BlizzardBabe]

That Black Pearl 82 he references in the video was loads of fun when I skied it last February during testing. I'd happily own a pair for days where I know I'm not going off-piste much, or when I want to work on moguls.

I'm glad to hear you say that, @contesstant . I just bought the BP82 specifically to work on moguls. I went quite short as well, at 152.

 

[bsskier]

I'm glad to hear you say that, @contesstant . I just bought the BP82 specifically to work on moguls. I went quite short as well, at 152.

@BlizzardBabe. I’m curious, what length do you usually ski that you dropped to 152 for moguls work? I’m 5’4 and often will get on BP88 in 161 out west. The 82 will be available to me in 159, but I’m always interested in others opinions/suggestions.

 

[marzNC]

I’m 5’4 and often will get on BP88 in 161 out west. The 82 will be available to me in 159, but I’m always interested in others opinions/suggestions.

More reference info . . . I'm a few inches shorter, 112 lbs. For Taos where skiing bumps is the primary objective for advanced skiers, I had an instructor who was very happy when I was demoing the BP88 @145cm. That was for a couple days when then only terrain open was groomers. When it snowed, I switched to the BP98 @152. My own Black Pearls (older design) are 159cm and my Stormrider 85s are also 159cm. For powder conditions, I rent skis that are 100-110 underfoot and 160-165cm.