Some ski porn for us snow deprived!!

[NZfarmgirl]

A Question for you instructors @Jilly @Ursula @snoWYmonkey and any others who would like to comment.
In the video from 1.26 to 1.50 there is a guy skiing with what seems a lot of inside ski tip lead. What do you think of it?
2 weeks ago I had a private with a level 3 examiner here in NZ, NZSIA, PSIA, she instructs here and at Aspen, and I think she will be an examiner at my up coming level 1 course.
She really pinged me on tip leading, and we spent ages working on it as she said it was pulling my hip alignment off. She got me to pull my inside heel back and the start of the turn to stop the ski sneaking forward. I found this really hard at first as it is an old habit. I had to exaggerate it to make anything happen. I found it a little easier when I concentrated on more weight on the outside ski as well. But I feel that it is throwing off my upper body separation. However I hope this will sort it self out as I keep practising.
Relating to the above comments about body position on the video - another instructor I've had recently who is or was (not sure) on the Demo team here, made me work a lot on the equal flexion of ankles, knees & hips, I was not flexing my ankles enough, and a big one for me --Keeping my bellybutton over my toes.

 

[Ursula]

Hi NZfarmgirl. First I want to tell you that I had a great time in New Zealand! Traveled there in April and May of 1990. Bungee jumped - but no skiing.
Now to your questions. I will start with the second topic first: equal flexion of joints. Here is a picture that demonstrates it.


Everytime you flex your knee, your ankle and your hip should respond accordingly. Or, everytime you flex your ankle, your knee and hip should flex..... etc.
Out of my experience, most of the skiers are somewhat locked into their ankles, (either by too stiff of a boot, or they never learned how to flex a boot.) So, the ankle stays locked, now we are supposed to move up, down, forward, aft, whatever...... if the ankle does not move, what is left? Knees and hips. Anytime the knee bends withoud the ankle moving the shinbone forward, where will the hip end up? Yep! behind the heels. Now it does not matter how much you flex (break) in the hip socket, the weight will be on the heels (or even behind)

The following picture has a few not so effiecient options.




In all five stances, the ankle never moved.
A: tall stance, ankles, knees and hips evenly flexed
B: knee and hips flexed,
C: knee and hips flexed a little more.
D: knee flexed, but hip did not actively flex, the torso is still in the same angle as in A. There is a little more angle in the hip socket, because the femur (thigh) dropped more.
E: knee is flexed the same as in B, but hip (just as in D) did not participate in the movement, so the angle of the torso has not changed. (Same as in A)

The quad burn will be the worst in E , then D. C and B wont be as bad, because at least by the infamous "breaking" at the waist" some of the body weight came forward.
If we want to ski all day long without that burning sensation in the quads, we should work on the upper picture and start moving from all joints! INCLUDING the ankle!

Now to the tip lead question.
First : where does the tip lead come from? is it something that we create for the sake of creation? no! It comes from turning the legs in the hip socket underneath the torso.
Second: how much tip lead should we have. Answer: that depends. On what? short turns, or long turns, flat terrain or steep?
In short turns, there will be a lot of tip lead because we will use all the counter our body can muster. In long turns, the tip lead will be a lot less. We don't need as much counter. At the end of a long radius turn, the torso might only be 10° off the axis the skis are pointed at. (towards the apex of the next turn) The tip lead might be an inch.
People who ski with a hip rotation where the pelvic is exactly square over the skis at the end of a turn, there is no tip lead at all. (In that case the question will be HOW can I get into the next turn efficiently? But that's another can of worms.... )

Back to the tip lead. If we ski with leg rotation, the hip should be in place "automatically", and as long as we have our weight forward, to start the next turn, we just have to push from both feet (or the outside foot ) forward into the next turn. So, NZfarmgirl, if there is something what messes with you hip allignment at the end of a turn, pulling the new inside foot back only treats a symptom. Not the cause.
If you have a video clip, maybe only a couple of pictures of you skiing, I might be able to help you more.

So much for today.
Ursula

 

[liquidfeet]

A Question for you instructors @Jilly @Ursula @snoWYmonkey and any others who would like to comment.
In the video from 1.26 to 1.50 there is a guy skiing with what seems a lot of inside ski tip lead. What do you think of it?
2 weeks ago I had a private with a level 3 examiner here in NZ, NZSIA, PSIA, she instructs here and at Aspen, and I think she will be an examiner at my up coming level 1 course.
She really pinged me on tip leading, and we spent ages working on it as she said it was pulling my hip alignment off. She got me to pull my inside heel back and the start of the turn to stop the ski sneaking forward. I found this really hard at first as it is an old habit. I had to exaggerate it to make anything happen. I found it a little easier when I concentrated on more weight on the outside ski as well. But I feel that it is throwing off my upper body separation. However I hope this will sort it self out as I keep practising.
Relating to the above comments about body position on the video - another instructor I've had recently who is or was (not sure) on the Demo team here, made me work a lot on the equal flexion of ankles, knees & hips, I was not flexing my ankles enough, and a big one for me --Keeping my bellybutton over my toes.

I haven't posted for a while; it's good to see there is technical talk going on. I'll throw in my 2 cents before Ursula gets back.

As for the point in red--- it's possible that you are "hip dumping." This means you move your hip over your skis at or near the start of your turn, and as you do that you turn those hips to the outside of the new turn (early countering). These two often go together. To avoid "park-n-ride" and to increase edge angles as the turn progresses you may keep dropping that hip lower. After the fall line it may continue to drop as you "complete" your turn, and all the time it's dropping it is also rotating farther to the outside of the turn (thus the comment of pulling your hip alignment off). This whole thing makes your inside foot "sneak" forward through the turn.

Why are these problems? Because they mess up your transitions/initiations. What you have to do in transition to start the new turn limits the terrain and conditions you can ski. If your hip moves to its lowest after the fall line, your hips and torso have a long way to go to get up and over those skis for the next turn. If, along with the hip dump, your hips are facing the outside of the turn excessively at the end of the turn, which is reflected in that big tip lead, then your weight is going to be aft. So you've got a long way to go to get out of the back seat as you start your new turn. For these reasons hip dumping often leads to rotary push-off initiations. This whole bundled package of movement patterns limits the on-snow situations you can handle effectively. It may also get in the way of your certification, but for Level I in NZ I'm not sure that's the case.

Hip dump is a result of doing some excessive stuff with the hip at the top of the turn. If I'm right about what you're doing, then the real fix is changing the way you finish the old turn and start the new one. Does any of this sound like how you start and shape your turns?

 

[litterbug]

I have to say that, even if he did spend a lot of time aft of his feet, his skiing was inspiring. Sure, any stoke is be inspiring, but still...

As I go along I get better at being able to actually identify elements of other people's skiing, and what struck me in this video was femurs turning in the hip socket, and how glad I am that I've started doing yoga videos every day or two and working on hip opening poses. I don't know where I am right now with my skills--my breaks between lessons are too long--so I spend a lot of ski time not being sure I'm using a skill correctly even if it feels reeeeeal good--but watching video makes me impatient to get on snow with one of my fave instructors to focus on exactly what I need to work on!

 

[Skisailor]

Bumping this thread for @Olesya.

 

[Skisailor]

A Question for you instructors @Jilly @Ursula @NZfarmgirl
In the video from 1.26 to 1.50 there is a guy skiing with what seems a lot of inside ski tip lead. What do you think of it?
2 weeks ago I had a private with a level 3 examiner here in NZ, NZSIA, PSIA, she instructs here and at Aspen, and I think she will be an examiner at my up coming level 1 course.
She really pinged me on tip leading, and we spent ages working on it as she said it was pulling my hip alignment off. She got me to pull my inside heel back and the start of the turn to stop the ski sneaking forward. I found this really hard at first as it is an old habit. I had to exaggerate it to make anything happen. I found it a little easier when I concentrated on more weight on the outside ski as well. But I feel that it is throwing off my upper body separation. However I hope this will sort it self out as I keep practising.
Relating to the above comments about body position on the video - another instructor I've had recently who is or was (not sure) on the Demo team here, made me work a lot on the equal flexion of ankles, knees & hips, I was not flexing my ankles enough, and a big one for me --Keeping my bellybutton over my toes.

Hi @NZfarmgirl.

Just bumping this again because I was really curious about what your examiner was making you do and why. Ursula and LiqudFeet are instructors who posted to answer you but you never got back to the thread. How did your Level 1 go? And how did the tip lead issue get worked out? Did the posts from the instructors here make any sense??

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

 

[climbingbetty]

I just want to thank Ursula and Liqudfeet for the taking to the time to respond and put all of that out there.

Fascinating. And humbling. I'm looking to start instructing this season and it was very interesting to read your analysis. I have a lot to learn!!!

It's interesting to me also, because I have a pretty strong background in kinesiology. From reading your posts as well as the Level 1 Study Guide.... there seems to me a difference between what ski instructors might be mean when they are talking about rotation at a joint and what that concept means to me from a kinesiology perspective. When I take my ITC I will have to be vigilant to make sure I am understanding how the instructors are using the terms and not assuming I know what they mean because I use the same concept, just perhaps a bit differently.

Thank you! I think that's going to be really useful for me in particular!

 

[mustski]

Well, let me just say that rotational turning is my goal this year. I am forced to spend way too much time on groomer (the SoCal curse) and because carving is fun ... have let some other skills slip which I really felt last year on my ONE powder day. Twist and Shout!

 

[NZfarmgirl]

Hi @NZfarmgirl.

Just bumping this again because I was really curious about what your examiner was making you do and why. Ursula and LiqudFeet are instructors who posted to answer you but you never got back to the thread. How did your Level 1 go? And how did the tip lead issue get worked out? Did the posts from the instructors here make any sense??

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

Hi Skisailor, sorry its taken me a while to get back to this. I got very engrossed with courses, lessons etc straight after, and didn't get back to it.
The story so far: (if I can remember the details)
After my challenging lesson focussing on tip lead, I decided to go back to my other instructor and see if she mentioned it. (she had been the first one to comment on my tip lead, which I had told the next instructor-possibly causing her to think I wanted to focus on it) She didn't bring it up so maybe I'd improved it or maybe she's not so bothered by it.
I still see it happening occasionally but its much less so I'm trying not to obsess over it, rather focus on doing other things right. @Ursula was correct in saying it is a symptom of something else, and pulling back my ski was not a full solution.
These are the things I worked on in my lessons and Level 1 course which I think helped: (Our level 1 is a five day course with a lot of ski training as well as teaching and exams so I had opportunity to work on a number of things.
Athletic Stance- More flexion at the ankles
Rotation/steering - More leg rotation going into the turn, improving upper/lower body separation -turning my femur in my hip socket, so not taking my hip so far round.
Smooth transition into the next turn- my improved stance meant that I could transition more easily -smoother movements rather than rushed.
Edging both skis evenly -I used to ski with my feet to close together (learned in the 80's) now that my legs are in a better position I needed to work on getting the same edge angle with both skis -tipping the inside ski more than I had been. Also keeping the distance between my feet even right through the turn -(they tend to sneak back together)

I'm sure there's more that I haven't remembered - every part of my skiing improved this year.
I know these are all basics, but the basics can be worked on at any level, and be forgotten at any level -with bad habits sneaking in.
One of my instructors is an ex racer, she has really helped my to use my edges, make a rounder turn shape and be braver with angulation. My skiing is much more dynamic when I ski with her - It just all clicks, so I hope to work with her again next year. I saw it as a privilege and feel very lucky to have people like that on my little mountain, she has been accepted on the Interski demo team for both New Zealand and Switzerland (she chose to represent the Swiss.) the other 2 Ive worked with are both examiners. I like it that each instructor has their own style and I learn different things from each.
No one mentioned tip lead to me again so hopefully it's not an issue anymore.
I passed level one, and scored 8 out of 10 in my ski exam and was very happy with that. A few weeks later I did another course -Children's certificate.
I'm planning to work next season and train towards level 2

 

[Magnatude]

@NZfarmgirl -- I'm assuming you're talking about the instructor we both had on the women's course? She was great -- made big improvements to my skiing too, I think. I hope she's coming back again next year. We are lucky with instructors in NZ, possibly since there is a lot of competition for very few jobs this side of the equator. And well done on the children's certificate -- that's another useful string to your bow. Was that run in a similar format to the Level 1?

 

[NZfarmgirl]

@NZfarmgirl -- I'm assuming you're talking about the instructor we both had on the women's course? She was great -- made big improvements to my skiing too, I think. I hope she's coming back again next year. We are lucky with instructors in NZ, possibly since there is a lot of competition for very few jobs this side of the equator. And well done on the children's certificate -- that's another useful string to your bow. Was that run in a similar format to the Level 1?

Yes I am talking about her- I'll be very disappointed if she's not back next season.
The Children's cert was 3 days, lots of stuff crammed in: off snow sessions on child development, learning stages, video analysis etc and on snow demos and example lessons- we had to act like kids a lot, a booklet/worksheet from the manual to complete and ended with an exam teach like in level 1. It's simply a pass or fail -no grading. It was more low key than level 1 and I would think easier to pass because everyone already has quite a bit of knowledge and experience. 3 of us hadn't taught before but usually people do it after working for a while. The group was mixed level 1 to 3. The examiner did have to interview a couple of people for a LONG time after their teach to sort some things out though and get them a pass, I was happily not one of them.

 

[Skisailor]

Hi Skisailor, sorry its taken me a while to get back to this. I got very engrossed with courses, lessons etc straight after, and didn't get back to it.
The story so far: (if I can remember the details)
After my challenging lesson focussing on tip lead, I decided to go back to my other instructor and see if she mentioned it. (she had been the first one to comment on my tip lead, which I had told the next instructor-possibly causing her to think I wanted to focus on it) She didn't bring it up so maybe I'd improved it or maybe she's not so bothered by it.
I still see it happening occasionally but its much less so I'm trying not to obsess over it, rather focus on doing other things right. @Ursula was correct in saying it is a symptom of something else, and pulling back my ski was not a full solution.
These are the things I worked on in my lessons and Level 1 course which I think helped: (Our level 1 is a five day course with a lot of ski training as well as teaching and exams so I had opportunity to work on a number of things.
Athletic Stance- More flexion at the ankles
Rotation/steering - More leg rotation going into the turn, improving upper/lower body separation -turning my femur in my hip socket, so not taking my hip so far round.
Smooth transition into the next turn- my improved stance meant that I could transition more easily -smoother movements rather than rushed.
Edging both skis evenly -I used to ski with my feet to close together (learned in the 80's) now that my legs are in a better position I needed to work on getting the same edge angle with both skis -tipping the inside ski more than I had been. Also keeping the distance between my feet even right through the turn -(they tend to sneak back together)

I'm sure there's more that I haven't remembered - every part of my skiing improved this year.
I know these are all basics, but the basics can be worked on at any level, and be forgotten at any level -with bad habits sneaking in.
One of my instructors is an ex racer, she has really helped my to use my edges, make a rounder turn shape and be braver with angulation. My skiing is much more dynamic when I ski with her - It just all clicks, so I hope to work with her again next year. I saw it as a privilege and feel very lucky to have people like that on my little mountain, she has been accepted on the Interski demo team for both New Zealand and Switzerland (she chose to represent the Swiss.) the other 2 Ive worked with are both examiners. I like it that each instructor has their own style and I learn different things from each.
No one mentioned tip lead to me again so hopefully it's not an issue anymore.
I passed level one, and scored 8 out of 10 in my ski exam and was very happy with that. A few weeks later I did another course -Children's certificate.
I'm planning to work next season and train towards level 2

Sounds great! Thanks for getting back to the thread.

Flexion (and extension) from the ankles; Leg rotation from the femurs; Smooth transitions - that all sounds like really good stuff!! So many of us ski like we have 2 joints - knee and hip. That ankle thing is a real key. And @Ursula's great figures showing the matching (or not) angles? Well . . . we don't need no stinkin' pre-season squats! Ha!

Sounds like some wonderful instructors.

Congrats on your certs!

On my bucket list to ski in your beautiful country. I was there for the America's Cup almost 15 years ago - but missed the ski season unfortunately . . . hope to get back there.

 

[marzNC]

from 2014, below is Post #21 by Ursula

Hi NZfarmgirl. First I want to tell you that I had a great time in New Zealand! Traveled there in April and May of 1990. Bungee jumped - but no skiing.
Now to your questions. I will start with the second topic first: equal flexion of joints. Here is a picture that demonstrates it.

View attachment 3002
Everytime you flex your knee, your ankle and your hip should respond accordingly. Or, everytime you flex your ankle, your knee and hip should flex..... etc.
Out of my experience, most of the skiers are somewhat locked into their ankles, (either by too stiff of a boot, or they never learned how to flex a boot.) So, the ankle stays locked, now we are supposed to move up, down, forward, aft, whatever...... if the ankle does not move, what is left? Knees and hips. Anytime the knee bends withoud the ankle moving the shinbone forward, where will the hip end up? Yep! behind the heels. Now it does not matter how much you flex (break) in the hip socket, the weight will be on the heels (or even behind)

The following picture has a few not so effiecient options.
View attachment 3003

In all five stances, the ankle never moved.
A: tall stance, ankles, knees and hips evenly flexed
B: knee and hips flexed,
C: knee and hips flexed a little more.
D: knee flexed, but hip did not actively flex, the torso is still in the same angle as in A. There is a little more angle in the hip socket, because the femur (thigh) dropped more.
E: knee is flexed the same as in B, but hip (just as in D) did not participate in the movement, so the angle of the torso has not changed. (Same as in A)

The quad burn will be the worst in E , then D. C and B wont be as bad, because at least by the infamous "breaking" at the waist" some of the body weight came forward.
If we want to ski all day long without that burning sensation in the quads, we should work on the upper picture and start moving from all joints! INCLUDING the ankle!

Now to the tip lead question.
First : where does the tip lead come from? is it something that we create for the sake of creation? no! It comes from turning the legs in the hip socket underneath the torso.
Second: how much tip lead should we have. Answer: that depends. On what? short turns, or long turns, flat terrain or steep?
In short turns, there will be a lot of tip lead because we will use all the counter our body can muster. In long turns, the tip lead will be a lot less. We don't need as much counter. At the end of a long radius turn, the torso might only be 10° off the axis the skis are pointed at. (towards the apex of the next turn) The tip lead might be an inch.
People who ski with a hip rotation where the pelvic is exactly square over the skis at the end of a turn, there is no tip lead at all. (In that case the question will be HOW can I get into the next turn efficiently? But that's another can of worms.... )

Back to the tip lead. If we ski with leg rotation, the hip should be in place "automatically", and as long as we have our weight forward, to start the next turn, we just have to push from both feet (or the outside foot ) forward into the next turn. So, NZfarmgirl, if there is something what messes with you hip allignment at the end of a turn, pulling the new inside foot back only treats a symptom. Not the cause.
If you have a video clip, maybe only a couple of pictures of you skiing, I might be able to help you more.

So much for today.
Ursula

 

[mountainwest]

This thread has been very educational. Thank you @marzNC for bumping!

 

[marzNC]

This thread has been very educational. Thank you @marzNC for bumping!

You're most welcome. I find it very useful to re-read threads with good technique discussions. My understanding keeps changing as I continue to improve by working with very experienced instructors. I'm pretty visual so reading is not that helpful as a way to learn something new. But once I've experienced a drill, reading about why it helps sometimes leads to an "aha!" moment.

 

[marzNC]

for 2018
Posts by @Ursula are worth re-reading every season.