contesstant
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Take the bolt out then. That's easy enough to change back if you need to. At least you can hopefully get one variable taken out of the equation.
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Softening Boots?
- Thread starter MissySki
- Start date
SnowHot
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Let me know if you still need pics of this.
I can get some done for you.
MissySki
Angel Diva
That would be great! I’m in ME for the long weekend and my foam got delivered to my house in MA this morning so I won’t be able to play with that until midweek.
MissySki
Angel Diva
So today was a powder day, and I decided I didn’t really feel like playing with taking a bolt out on my boot. Instead since it was soft snow and I knew I’d be in bumps all day I decided to just loosen up my cuff buckles a bit and also to buckle my power strap under the top part of my shell that it usually sits on. I just backed off my buckles on the cuff to the 3rd rung where they were last season versus the 4th that I’ve been using this year. Kept the lower 2 buckles the same. I immediately felt like I could flex better, but wasn’t sure if that was due to it being warmer of a day. Things felt good for awhile and then when there was more and more snow to push on me I was finding my right big toe hurting a little so appears that I was sliding a little by not buckling that ankle tighter back (this is the looser feeling ankle overall). In the afternoon I decided to tighten back to the 4th buckle to see how that felt. While everything felt so much more secure, bam I felt like I couldn’t flex well again on that run. Disliked very much! So it definitely seems like cranking that little bit more just doesn't sit well for me right now.. I went back to the 3rd position and felt better about that in the soft bumped snow even though it made things a little sloppier. Definitely hoping that the foam on the front of my tongue will take up that little extra space AND still allow me to flex..
Thoughts on whether it makes sense to take out a bolt from the back and see how that feels with them tightened to the 4th buckle position I’ve been using? I’m kind of thinking it might all have to just do with how the overlapping plastic is interacting at the different settings and therefore I’m not sure if the bolt will do much of anything? I’m not sure if this makes actual sense outside of my own head though haha.
Thoughts on whether it makes sense to take out a bolt from the back and see how that feels with them tightened to the 4th buckle position I’ve been using? I’m kind of thinking it might all have to just do with how the overlapping plastic is interacting at the different settings and therefore I’m not sure if the bolt will do much of anything? I’m not sure if this makes actual sense outside of my own head though haha.
I'm having that same issue in my boots. I tried a full-length shim under the liner. That worked to take up space, BUT ... it raised my heel up just enough that I get a lot of pressure on the side of my heel. I took the shims out and have started cranking the lower leg buckle down to hold my leg in place, but leaving the top buckle looser so I can still flex well. Before the season is over, I expect I'll be experimenting with padding inside the tongue as well.
I called the bootfitter to see what their inventory is like. With the pandemic, I had heard that some places would have less inventory this season. Sounds as if I could get new boots now, but I'm taking lessons and really don't want the breaking in of boots to impact my lesson progress. I'd rather deal with boots early next season.
MissySki
Angel Diva
Same issue here with doing lessons and not wanting to break things in now! Also the added complication of travel restrictions in VT where my bootfitter is. Ugh, I hate boots lol.
SnowHot
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
LOL, I'll be in New Hampshire this week. Flying into Boston.That would be great! I’m in ME for the long weekend and my foam got delivered to my house in MA this morning so I won’t be able to play with that until midweek.
There are a couple different ways to take up that volume to buy you time before getting a new boot.
Technically, losing weight won't make a big difference in the flex of the boot if your boot fits properly.
Getting the right shin contact is really important.
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MissySki
Angel Diva
What other ways would you suggest, in case the foam is a no go? I have a history of hating the feel of anything added to my boots, so I’m not extremely optimistic, but fingers crossed!
Darn, you aren’t doing any mobile boot fitting while in NH are you??
SnowHot
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
That would be ideal, eh?What other ways would you suggest, in case the foam is a no go? I have a history of hating the feel of anything added to my boots, so I’m not extremely optimistic, but fingers crossed!
Darn, you aren’t doing any mobile boot fitting while in NH are you??
The other way to take up volume is to put L pads on either side of the tongue.
You put an L shaped pad on the outside of the liner on both sides, making sure it doesn't impede the ankle
I'm not very good with markup but hopefully this helps.
MissySki
Angel Diva
This is long, but definitely ties into my boot stiffness issues so please bear with me.
Since I didn't feel like playing with my regular boots yesterday, I decided to ski for the day on my new AT setup to just do something different and also get some time on snow with it to get comfortable ahead of the avy 1 class I'm doing next month. Background: I picked up a cheap pair of last season's Sheeva 9 since I love them so much and mounted them with Shift bindings. Then I have the hybrid Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 95 W boot which I purchased with a less aggressive fit than my downhill boots to accommodate more comfort for the uphill. I went with my measured size of 24.5 versus my downhill boots where I size down to a 23.5 because I and a couple of bootfitters I spoke to felt I'd likely be quite miserable trying to skin in a downsized boot with my wide forefoot. I went with the softer flex in the same thought process that I will not be doing anything high speed in the backcountry and I could barely budge the 115 flex of the next step up in the shop when I was trying them on.
At first things felt off, but after doing a progression of some drills on greens, then blues, then bumps, then ice, I was feeling really balanced! I've felt off balanced or that I'm always trying to get back in balance often this season for some reason, so this was notable. At first it was hard to want to trust the boots because they are much softer flexing than my Langes, so getting higher on edge at higher speeds made me nervous. It was also easy to overbend my knees so I had to get more active throughout my turns rather than just leaning on and trying to flex through like I normally feel I need to. I'm probably not explaining that well at all but not sure how to exactly except that things were different between the two.. After awhile it started feeling just fine, though I do wish they were just a smidge stiffer and offered more rebound.
The biggest revelation was in bumps, I suddenly felt like I could absorb and stay out of the backseat (more of the time) staying significantly more balanced (for me) and therefore more ready to take a turn after the last turn completed. This is what I keep being told to do, but I'm always fighting to try and get there, yesterday it was just happening more often than not. I went right to double blacks for the bumps in a trial by fire after sticking to groomers for awhile. They are trails I do in my Langes all the time as well, but it was WAY less effort on this setup which kind of shocked me. Now they didn't turn me into some kind of amazing bump skier, but they made it easier to work on the feedback I've been receiving in my classes when in this terrain for sure. I could absorb and extend further while staying in balance and felt more confident because I wasn't getting thrown back. I was even able to feel like I was diving my upper body forward more, and I'm unsure why this would happen from boots? I also went to some steeper icy groomers which I've had more struggles than usual on this season and had no problem whatsoever.. This could also be explained by the fact that the Sheevas are brand new with nice sharp 3 degree side edges whereas my normal Sheevas are in desperate need of a tune.. or because I was in balance? I don't know but that was a relief because I seriously have been feeling like I completely forgot how to ski ice recently.
The pros:
I think no matter what this is all great feedback for when I go to my bootfitter for new boots in the fall. I can show up with my two boots and really breakdown the issues I have with each to see if we can find some good middle ground. Certainly I think I'll be sizing down again for a downhill boot anyway. Is there any reason to believe that a longer boot is responsible for feeling more balanced than a sized down boot? OR is that really most on the flex in my case recently? I have been to a bootfitter in the past who said that his recommendation for me would be to stick to my real shell size and then do aftermarket liners to dial in my instep and ankle/heel area vs sizing down. I'm not positive what my current fitter will want to do since he has always just fixed my problems with boots and never actually put me into a brand new pair yet.
Options to use these boots more?:
I was also wondering if there middle ground solution that I could find to take up some space and also stiffen things up a tad this season. Perhaps an intuition liner? Though I'd want to ensure that I don't make things uncomfortable for hiking which is the main purpose of this pair of boots, but I suppose I could use the current liner to skin and an aftermarket for inbounds if I were to pursue using these more often. I want to say that these boots also came with inserts to supposedly change the sizing from a 24.5 to a 24.0 etc. so I assume just lifting you in the boot. If I am correct and can find that it might also be something to try assuming it doesn't kill my forefoot width that is admittedly VERY happy right now with how things are.
On a separate note I'm once again really annoyed that there is no standardization in flex numbers. I have no idea on some scale where my Atomic 95 would rank versus my Lange 110. I can say that the 110 feels WAY stiffer, but there are so many variables to it as well. So I still have no idea what the right flex for me would feel like or if it's just that this boot interacts with my anatomy better and uses different materials etc etc. I really wish you could demo boots.
I'm also going to still play with my Langes further as I have the foam I ordered at home now and also haven't tried taking a bolt out yet.
Since I didn't feel like playing with my regular boots yesterday, I decided to ski for the day on my new AT setup to just do something different and also get some time on snow with it to get comfortable ahead of the avy 1 class I'm doing next month. Background: I picked up a cheap pair of last season's Sheeva 9 since I love them so much and mounted them with Shift bindings. Then I have the hybrid Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 95 W boot which I purchased with a less aggressive fit than my downhill boots to accommodate more comfort for the uphill. I went with my measured size of 24.5 versus my downhill boots where I size down to a 23.5 because I and a couple of bootfitters I spoke to felt I'd likely be quite miserable trying to skin in a downsized boot with my wide forefoot. I went with the softer flex in the same thought process that I will not be doing anything high speed in the backcountry and I could barely budge the 115 flex of the next step up in the shop when I was trying them on.
At first things felt off, but after doing a progression of some drills on greens, then blues, then bumps, then ice, I was feeling really balanced! I've felt off balanced or that I'm always trying to get back in balance often this season for some reason, so this was notable. At first it was hard to want to trust the boots because they are much softer flexing than my Langes, so getting higher on edge at higher speeds made me nervous. It was also easy to overbend my knees so I had to get more active throughout my turns rather than just leaning on and trying to flex through like I normally feel I need to. I'm probably not explaining that well at all but not sure how to exactly except that things were different between the two.. After awhile it started feeling just fine, though I do wish they were just a smidge stiffer and offered more rebound.
The biggest revelation was in bumps, I suddenly felt like I could absorb and stay out of the backseat (more of the time) staying significantly more balanced (for me) and therefore more ready to take a turn after the last turn completed. This is what I keep being told to do, but I'm always fighting to try and get there, yesterday it was just happening more often than not. I went right to double blacks for the bumps in a trial by fire after sticking to groomers for awhile. They are trails I do in my Langes all the time as well, but it was WAY less effort on this setup which kind of shocked me. Now they didn't turn me into some kind of amazing bump skier, but they made it easier to work on the feedback I've been receiving in my classes when in this terrain for sure. I could absorb and extend further while staying in balance and felt more confident because I wasn't getting thrown back. I was even able to feel like I was diving my upper body forward more, and I'm unsure why this would happen from boots? I also went to some steeper icy groomers which I've had more struggles than usual on this season and had no problem whatsoever.. This could also be explained by the fact that the Sheevas are brand new with nice sharp 3 degree side edges whereas my normal Sheevas are in desperate need of a tune.. or because I was in balance? I don't know but that was a relief because I seriously have been feeling like I completely forgot how to ski ice recently.
The pros:
- I felt more balanced, especially in bumps where I usually struggle more to stay forward
- I could definitely flex my boots and could feel that I was doing so throughout my turns rather than hitting a wall.
- They are comfortable (probably too comfortable) because the length and width are my real measured size without any work on them.
- I had fun and everything just felt easier and smoother.
- My toes felt warmer, probably because they have more space to breath than normal?
- These boots are SUPER lightweight and also use a different plastic or mix of plastics that don't seem to stiffen up anywhere near as much as the regular plastic my Langes are constructed from. They didn't change much at all and it was below freezing yesterday, just stayed pretty consistent throughout from 8am-12:30pm.
- While the instep height is low for a 24.5 and feels almost snug standing still, there isn't as much pressure there as I'd like for an everyday boot for technical terrain. Once I start skiing I miss the firmer feel there of a smaller boot. Honestly I'm not sure how my foot held in place so well, I think it's due to how contoured the shell is to my leg and lower foot minus the instep. The plastic really wraps around you as it seems thinner and more flexible than older boots that aren't as malleable. My feet did not budge out of the heel pockets.
- Less responsive than my Langes for subtle inputs and quick turns, though not terrible. This did make me a little hesitant to ski as I normally do such as short fast turns on trail edges. I kept it a bit further into the trail just in case as I built more confidence on them, I don't think there was anything to worry about there though, just being conservative as I grew comfortable on them.
- Sometimes felt like I was overflexing them forward and that they aren't as laterally supportive as I'd like when carving fast. I'm used to really having to work to stay forward and flex my boots, so it might be learning to resist going straight to that.
- Flexing forward in my left boot digs into a bone just to the side of my center heel that is quite painful. It's exactly where these boots give me blisters hiking as well. I had them blown out on both sides for this, but it appears while the right worked well the left still digs in. Coming over a couple of bumps too hard caused firm overflexing and dug it into my heel in a really unpleasant way as well. That's where I also wonder if there isn't enough stiffness for the terrain I ski and if I need to have more support in rough stuff.
- I cranked the buckles pretty tightly and my right ankle is a bit sore today. Though I haven't skied these boots much yet since I haven't skinned much so 4 hours of lift service yesterday was a lot of breaking in that hasn't really happened.
I think no matter what this is all great feedback for when I go to my bootfitter for new boots in the fall. I can show up with my two boots and really breakdown the issues I have with each to see if we can find some good middle ground. Certainly I think I'll be sizing down again for a downhill boot anyway. Is there any reason to believe that a longer boot is responsible for feeling more balanced than a sized down boot? OR is that really most on the flex in my case recently? I have been to a bootfitter in the past who said that his recommendation for me would be to stick to my real shell size and then do aftermarket liners to dial in my instep and ankle/heel area vs sizing down. I'm not positive what my current fitter will want to do since he has always just fixed my problems with boots and never actually put me into a brand new pair yet.
Options to use these boots more?:
I was also wondering if there middle ground solution that I could find to take up some space and also stiffen things up a tad this season. Perhaps an intuition liner? Though I'd want to ensure that I don't make things uncomfortable for hiking which is the main purpose of this pair of boots, but I suppose I could use the current liner to skin and an aftermarket for inbounds if I were to pursue using these more often. I want to say that these boots also came with inserts to supposedly change the sizing from a 24.5 to a 24.0 etc. so I assume just lifting you in the boot. If I am correct and can find that it might also be something to try assuming it doesn't kill my forefoot width that is admittedly VERY happy right now with how things are.
On a separate note I'm once again really annoyed that there is no standardization in flex numbers. I have no idea on some scale where my Atomic 95 would rank versus my Lange 110. I can say that the 110 feels WAY stiffer, but there are so many variables to it as well. So I still have no idea what the right flex for me would feel like or if it's just that this boot interacts with my anatomy better and uses different materials etc etc. I really wish you could demo boots.
I'm also going to still play with my Langes further as I have the foam I ordered at home now and also haven't tried taking a bolt out yet.
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NewEnglandSkier
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Nothing to add regarding how the boots fit, and I know nothing about AT bindings, but could the bindings be contributing to feeling well balanced? I know I'm finding I'm sensitive to ramp angle on bindings and different bindings make me feel more balanced. But I'm not sure about AT bindings and how they may compare to your usual setup. I'm sure what you're feeling probably does relate to the boots for the most part though since they are so different.
MissySki
Angel Diva
This is a great question, I’m not at all sure what the ramp angle is on the Shifts and this was my only time ever on them so far. I always try to be mindful of ramp angles on normal bindings because I’m really sensitive to too much lift in my heels. I didn’t bother with looking into that stuff in this case because it’s the only real option for the functionality I wanted for being able to skin but then also skiing securely like a downhill binding. I’ll have to look into it.
contesstant
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
What alpine bindings are you skiing on?
I recall the Shifts being steeper than a lot of alpine bindings.
I recall the Shifts being steeper than a lot of alpine bindings.
MissySki
Angel Diva
Ohh really?? I actually would have said the opposite from memory because I thought everything seemed pretty low down and flush to the skis. They are in ME though so I can't actually look at them right now since I'm back in MA for a few days. I'm most often on the attack 13 on my regular skis.
@MissySki - do you normally warm up that way when you're skiing in your Lange boots? I had some work done on my boots the other day and had a great afternoon following a morning of doing drills and stopping if I felt my turns starting to get messy. I also sometimes think my boots are a bit too stiff for me, but actually really liked having the support once I felt like I was warmed up and confident.
It's great that you like them and feel confident skiing in them though, bodes well for touring!
It's great that you like them and feel confident skiing in them though, bodes well for touring!
MissySki
Angel Diva
A good point! I do try and warm up a bit in the mornings before class starts this season, but I don’t usually do it in as progressive of a manner as I did with these boots yesterday. Would be a good exercise to go through even as I try padding the tongues and taking out a back bolt! Keep things more consistent.
MissySki
Angel Diva
I found that the Atomic do in fact come with pre-cut shims to insert and “make your boot a half size smaller”. There are diagrams showing to insert them inside of the liner under your footbed. Of course that boot is in ME while my Langes are here in MA with me to add tongue padding this week.. That will be easy enough to add and see if it takes up some of the instep height I don’t like in general without making the forefoot width painful.
contesstant
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
This article measures the Shift as being 9mm higher in the heel. That being said, the Aattacks have more ramp angle than Squires, for instance. IIRC the Aattacks are about 5mm higher in the heel.
https://www.wildsnow.com/10733/get-up-rise-up-stand-up-for-your-ramp/
MissySki
Angel Diva
Oh good grief, so this adds confusion to the equation! Considering I've been under the impression that heel lift has always been bad for me. Perhaps that has more to do with when it's combined with the boot I'm in and how it all interacts since that obviously changes things. I wonder how much difference it also makes to the 24.5 length boot versus the 23.5 as well? This all makes my head spin haha, I'm so intrigued by it though!
Calling @lisamamot, how do you feel about the ramp angle of your Shifts since you also ski the Attacks on the same ski I do?
