Softening Boots?

[SquidWeaselYay]

I'm so happy to hear that you are having such a good experience, I can definitely relate to putting way too much time and money into ski boots in the past. I'm pretty willing to spend almost anything on a boot setup that will get rid of these issues! Only problem is that you never know if it will or not until you commit. I've had some other friends who did Surefoot in the past, and at the time I think flew to another part of the country for it, they were very happy with the outcome.

It's really interesting to me that both you and @contesstant are in the ZJ and singing its praises, with a lot of similarities in our feet/issues it sounds like.. Though you're in Surefoot and she's not. The shell sounds like it needs to be on my radar. @contesstant you said you're in an intuition liner, but you've tried other customizable solutions in the past as well. What made you go with Intuition this time versus the others?

I've never really looked into Surefoot for myself, I had thought about Zipfit and Bootdoc liners since they come up a lot but I don't think there are a lot of options near where I ski for all of these things. Perhaps I need to do more research though as I haven't done a ton of looking into it in recent times.

All Surefoot places are not equal quality, it seems. The Killington location is one of the best. I did a lot of research on that before I went there. Some of the ones out west get bad reviews, with people saying that they just put people into too-big boots and then foam the crap out of them. That wasn't my experience at all at Killington. They are used to working with professional snowboarders and skiers there, so they were really great about listening to me and finding a solution.

I tried ZipFit liners, and even with extra Omfit, it didn't control my ankles enough. I had BootDoc foam liners before (with extra foam injected into them during the foaming process) in a twice downsized (I measure 24.5, went to a 22.5) Technica Mach 1 95 LV, but it still didn't quite do it, and I needed a lot of punches to get my forefoot comfortable. It was better than the old Lange RX I had been in, but still not quite right. I never tried intuitions.

I can honestly say that the ZJ is the best shell I have ever felt. The flex is so smooth and progressive, and it doesn't turn into a brick. I'm in a 23.5 and I have enough room to be comfortable without any slop.

 

[MissySki]

All Surefoot places are not equal quality, it seems. The Killington location is one of the best. I did a lot of research on that before I went there. Some of the ones out west get bad reviews, with people saying that they just put people into too-big boots and then foam the crap out of them. That wasn't my experience at all at Killington. They are used to working with professional snowboarders and skiers there, so they were really great about listening to me and finding a solution.

I tried ZipFit liners, and even with extra Omfit, it didn't control my ankles enough. I had BootDoc foam liners before (with extra foam injected into them during the foaming process) in a twice downsized (I measure 24.5, went to a 22.5) Technica Mach 1 95 LV, but it still didn't quite do it, and I needed a lot of punches to get my forefoot comfortable. It was better than the old Lange RX I had been in, but still not quite right. I never tried intuitions.

I can honestly say that the ZJ is the best shell I have ever felt. The flex is so smooth and progressive, and it doesn't turn into a brick. I'm in a 23.5 and I have enough room to be comfortable without any slop.

Thanks for describing your experience with all of this, it's really valuable to hear the progression that got you to your current awesome setup! I'm also really wowed that you were able to get into a 22.5 from a 24.5 as that's my measured size as well that's way too big in most dimensions outside of length. I've never tried on a 22.5, but this is my second 23.5 and I have a hard time imagining being able to go smaller.

 

[contesstant]

@contesstant @liquidfeet here is what I was thinking of.. Is this overkill and better to stick with the adhesive foam?

https://www.tognar.com/the-eliminator-custom-tongue-shims/

No, those IME will create a bigger gap at your ankle AND be way too bulky at the upper cuff. Get the thinner foam and cut it to match the tongue of your boot down past the ankle and onto the instep. It'll add just enough (a few mm) to push the ankle back into the heel pocket.

Wow. Our feet sound so similar. Hypermobile, very low volume, flat instep, super narrow at the heel and somewhat wide at the ball-of-foot.

The reason the cuffs on women's boots are shorter than on men's has to do with male vs female anatomy.

Below is the calf anatomy you'll find in all anatomical illustrations. The red bulge of the gastrocnemius is massive and high on the lower leg. There's plenty of room for a tall boot cuff to snug itself up against the narrow part of this leg.

This is male anatomy.

Unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, it's almost impossible to find a similar illustration of a female calf. Half of human beings are female, but the illustrations of "normal" anatomy are almost always of male anatomy. Go figure.

The gastrocnemius on a woman's lower leg extends downward more that of a man. Well, normally, since there are always exceptions. So on women the narrow part of the lower leg is normally shorter than on men. That narrow part is where the boot cuff needs to snug up against the lower leg. So boot manufacturers make women's boots with shorter cuffs.

If you purchase a boot with the cuff too high for your personal anatomy, the cuff will clinch tightly at the top where your bulging gastrocs are, but leave air space below closer to your ankle. You'll need to fill it with something. Tightening the buckles won't work to fill that much space. Zipfit and Intuition liners can do that - but they are expensive.

In uni-sex race boots I don't know what is done to deal with this issue. Maybe someone here knows.

Check the height of your calf muscles in a mirror. Stand on your toes to get the muscles to contract so you can see them. Then you'll see how high the narrow part of your lower leg extends. You'll know how high a cuff you can wear without added fill for the lowest part. This is especially critical in people with low volume feet, since that lower leg area is usually very tiny in diameter.

So, I don't have calf issues, in fact, I might have more "man calves" than most women in that my gastroc is up higher, but I'm in the ZJ junior race boot, which does have a slightly lower cuff. (The J stands for junior.) Lange and Rossi make them, as they are the same company.

I'm so happy to hear that you are having such a good experience, I can definitely relate to putting way too much time and money into ski boots in the past. I'm pretty willing to spend almost anything on a boot setup that will get rid of these issues! Only problem is that you never know if it will or not until you commit. I've had some other friends who did Surefoot in the past, and at the time I think flew to another part of the country for it, they were very happy with the outcome.

It's really interesting to me that both you and @contesstant are in the ZJ and singing its praises, with a lot of similarities in our feet/issues it sounds like.. Though you're in Surefoot and she's not. The shell sounds like it needs to be on my radar. @contesstant you said you're in an intuition liner, but you've tried other customizable solutions in the past as well. What made you go with Intuition this time versus the others?

I've never really looked into Surefoot for myself, I had thought about Zipfit and Bootdoc liners since they come up a lot but I don't think there are a lot of options near where I ski for all of these things. Perhaps I need to do more research though as I haven't done a ton of looking into it in recent times.

The beauty of the ZJ (and any other race boot) is you can create space to your heart's content. But you need a fitter who can work on that type of boot, because they can screw things up in a hurry. How wide is your forefoot? At 92mm in a 26.5, the ZJ would have an approximately 86mm last in a 23.5? Something below 90mm. BUT it can be ground to create space, and ground a LOT. ETA my husband's feet measure well over 100mm wide, and he fits into a 98mm last boot in a 27.5 with some heat molding and bunion punches, oh and his styloid needs punching, too. He has some messed up feet from squishing into 26.5 race bricks over the years.

I went with Intuitions this time because that's what Matt Schiller at Park City Boot Room told me to do. He told me to get an Intuition race liner, didn't matter which one. I actually molded them at home with my husband's help. At first, my foot felt like it was in a vice, and all my toes were squished, but I skied them and the liners relaxed and now I'm glad I didn't grind anything around my toes. Even the first few days this season, I was thinking I needed room for my toes, but nope, I just needed to get used to wearing ski boots again.

Boot Doc liners are amazing, but they are one-and-done and my second set I had made were WAY too snug, and unfortunately, once you've finished injecting the foam and it's set, you're done. That being said, they do NOT pack out although truthfully, what I used to consider packing out was probably more likely my feet shrinking through the day. Zipfits are too wide in the forefoot for me and I always felt like because they were constantly remolding, that they were changing throughout the day. Of the three brands, I am happiest with the Intuitions, but I will say, that first day I was kind of freaked out at how tight they were. It's nice because you can mold them, ski them, then if they don't relax enough, reheat and remold them. Each subsequent heating will take away some of the volume. Another bonus to that is you can heat specific zones in the liner. Need more toe room? Heat just the toes and put a toe cap on. (I should probably do this!)

I'll echo what @SquidWeaselYay says, the ZJ, even at a 120 flex, does not feel too stiff. They also never feel too soft. The Intuition liner I am in is a stiff liner which I think helps me flex the boot better. Prior to these, the stiffest boots I'd ever been in were a 105. The Tecnica Mach 1 105 felt like bricks compared to these.

I should line up all the boots I've been in since 2014 and take a picture. It's really sad! My Rossi Hero's really are my hero boots!

 

[contesstant]

I can honestly say that the ZJ is the best shell I have ever felt. The flex is so smooth and progressive, and it doesn't turn into a brick. I'm in a 23.5 and I have enough room to be comfortable without any slop.

This is exactly how I describe them. Even when they are cold and stiffer, they still aren't rock-hard.

 

[liquidfeet]

Hmm they DO sound very similar. Who do you use for a bootfitter, and are they close to where you normally ski at Bretton Woods? It sounds like you have good luck now with boots, or more that you are very knowledgeable about what you need now and have a good fitter you work with versus luck. That wouldn't be a horrible trip over from Sunday river sometime if I can't get this all worked out on my own soon.

I work with Adam Grenier at Sport Thoma in North Lincoln, exit 13 off I-93. He's the race kid bootfitter, a PSIA LIII instructor, and a good guy. He saved skiing for me by finally putting me in the right boots and tweaking them to fit me. I totally trust him. If you go, PM me and I'll give you my name so you can tell him I sent you.

There's also Lionel Hering at Happy Tunes in Carrabassett Valley, if you are up that way. http://wskitv.com/2017/01/05/happy-tunes-maine-kayak-expeditions/

 

[MissySki]

I work with Adam Grenier at Sport Thoma in North Lincoln, exit 13 off I-93. He also works at the Sport Thoma in Bethel, I think (!!). He's the race kid bootfitter, a PSIA LIII instructor, and a good guy. He saved skiing for me by finally putting me in the right boots and tweaking them to fit me. I totally trust him. If you go, PM me and I'll give you my name so you can tell him I sent you.

Ohhhhh well that'd be pretty amazing, if he also works at the one in Bethel that would be a definite contact I'd be willing to explore since that'd be extremely convenient. Even just to start the conversation of what's happening for me right now and to see what he thinks about my alignment as well.

 

[liquidfeet]

I just called the Bethel shop to check if he still works there. He doesn't work there any more. Sorry!

 

[MissySki]

No, those IME will create a bigger gap at your ankle AND be way too bulky at the upper cuff. Get the thinner foam and cut it to match the tongue of your boot down past the ankle and onto the instep. It'll add just enough (a few mm) to push the ankle back into the heel pocket.

Okay, that's what I was wondering, I'll stick to the thinner foam then. Will order a couple of pieces today.

The beauty of the ZJ (and any other race boot) is you can create space to your heart's content. But you need a fitter who can work on that type of boot, because they can screw things up in a hurry. How wide is your forefoot? At 92mm in a 26.5, the ZJ would have an approximately 86mm last in a 23.5? Something below 90mm. BUT it can be ground to create space, and ground a LOT. ETA my husband's feet measure well over 100mm wide, and he fits into a 98mm last boot in a 27.5 with some heat molding and bunion punches, oh and his styloid needs punching, too. He has some messed up feet from squishing into 26.5 race bricks over the years.

Oh wow those are exceptionally narrow!! I'm not 100% sure what my measurements are anymore, I wonder if I had them in my old boot saga thread.. I do think I'm at or a little over 100mm My Langes right now are a 97 or 98 (not sure if they change with sizing as well??) and I needed a good amount of stretching to make room. Most bootfitters have tried to grind down the shell on the big toe side bone where I'll feel horrible pain, but my bootfitter takes a different approach of using this ball press to stretch the little toe bone side only. Giving that side of my forefoot a place to sit takes all of the pressure off of the big toe side and is the only thing that's relieved my forefoot pain in multiple pairs of boots. Under 90mm to start seems like a longshot for me haha! I'd be interested in seeing what my bootfitter had to say about it if it were a good option for me in other ways though. Curious if it'd be oh yeah that's doable, or heck no you're insane if you think that foot is ever fitting into such a skinny boot! lol Interestingly my Atomic hybrid boots for AT are a 24.5 mondo and also shown as 98 last, I didn't need any room made in them for my forefoot. We just baked the liners and things eased up enough that they are fine in that area where I thought I'd need a little work originally.

Very interesting to hear the final assessments on each of the aftermarket liners, I appreciate reading everyone else's experiences on those because I feel like each shop that sells a particular variety tote them as the best solution out there whereas there's always more to the story and potential downfalls.

 

[MissySki]

I just called the Bethel shop to check if he still works there. He doesn't work there any more. Sorry!

Darn, of course that would have been too good to be true. Thanks for checking though, I appreciate it. Perhaps I can get to Lincoln sometime if needed as it's still much easier to travel to NH than VT right now. Bethel would have just been icing on the cake!

 

[SquidWeaselYay]

Thanks for describing your experience with all of this, it's really valuable to hear the progression that got you to your current awesome setup! I'm also really wowed that you were able to get into a 22.5 from a 24.5 as that's my measured size as well that's way too big in most dimensions outside of length. I've never tried on a 22.5, but this is my second 23.5 and I have a hard time imagining being able to go smaller.

I think the only reason I was able to go to that 22.5 is because the Tecnica Mach 1 22.5 is "big," with a BSL of 270. The 23.5 ZJ I am in is only a tad longer at 273, so nearly the same.

 

[MissySki]

I think the only reason I was able to go to that 22.5 is because the Tecnica Mach 1 22.5 is "big," with a BSL of 270. The 23.5 ZJ I am in is only a tad longer at 273, so nearly the same.

Interesting, my Lange 23.5 is 276 (I’m pretty sure). Darn it for leaving my boots in ME when they are heavily on the brain right now! Lol

 

[elemmac]

They have a more forward lean and I was wondering if that and the taller cuff were helping me feel more balanced in them when I've skied them. They are also a 95 flex though so much softer than my downhill boot. I've only skied them a handful of times since I haven't skinned much yet, and perhaps isn't comparing apples to apples given the difference in size, flex, and fit.

Ever consider skiing your AT boots? If they’re comfortable, and you feel balanced....pretty sure those Atomics would be a solid option for 50-50 boot.

 

[MissySki]

Ever consider skiing your AT boots? If they’re comfortable, and you feel balanced....pretty sure those Atomics would be a solid option for 50-50 boot.

I'm not sure they're fit snugly enough for me to want to ski them all the time inbounds since I didn't size down in them, but I haven't really put them through their paces to say that for sure I suppose. Have only skied them in the frame binding so far. I do have my Shifts mounted now to the Sheevas and finally got my skins cut this past weekend. I was planning on taking them out for a bit on Monday since I won't be in my classes like the weekend and can see what it feels like when skiing in a regular downhill binding. I had never intended to be skiing at any real speed with a boot bought for using in the backcountry, so I wasn't as concerned with a high performance fit versus additional comfort for the uphill piece. I do really like how my downhill boots fit for the most part, so I'm thinking I won't like the substitution completely for resort skiing but you never know.

 

[MissySki]

I ordered the foam this afternoon and it already shipped out! Fingers crossed it comes before Friday so I can play with it over the long weekend..

 

[MissySki]

It doesn't need to go to the top of the tongue, but ideally it will reach to the top buckle. I can take pictures of it later if you'd like.

If you are able, I'd love to see pictures for when my foam arrives. Still hoping it'll be ahead of this weekend, but it's USPS so we'll see. Currently the tracking is saying Friday..

 

[contesstant]

If you are able, I'd love to see pictures for when my foam arrives. Still hoping it'll be ahead of this weekend, but it's USPS so we'll see. Currently the tracking is saying Friday..

I’ll see if I can get some. The foam is very much stuck to the liners in my Nordica boots. @SnowHot is who clued me in on this trick. I might have pics that she sent me. I’ll dig around.

 

[MissySki]

I’ll see if I can get some. The foam is very much stuck to the liners in my Nordica boots. @SnowHot is who clued me in on this trick. I might have pics that she sent me. I’ll dig around.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

 

[MissySki]

Would you ladies suggest taking a screw out of the back of my boots as well as the padding, or start with the just padding to see if that helps first?

My scientist brain says to obviously only change one thing at a time.. but I’m also doing a class Saturday, so assuming I can get the padding done for that morning I won’t have time to switch things up again until the next day.

 

[MissySki]

Ugh.. my tracking for the tongue padding now says it will arrive "later than expected", so looking like I won't have it for this weekend. Doesn't say when it will arrive now. Boooo USPS.. Not sure what to try now, I guess maybe just removing one screw from the back. Funnily enough (or maybe not..) when I was looking for my old Booster straps I started looking at those old boots that were 2 pairs ago and guess what? I also had the top screw removed, the Booster Straps, and padding in various places in front of and around my ankles. However, that boot was a 24.5 versus my now 23.5 so when it packed out (HORRIBLE liner) I needed a ton of padding because my ankle flopped all over the place in it. It was also a 110 flex, but totally different brand so not actually comparable..

 

[MissySki]

Mail came, no padding.. Soooooooo I pulled the padding off of the tongues of my old boots that had it. I fully expect that it's too dense and thick for what I need now, but at least I can try it and see.. Not sure I'll do so in the morning tomorrow though, it's supposed to be snowing and I don't really want to be messing with my boots then anyway.