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Sidecut radius vs. width underfoot

B

B.E.G.

Guest
Oh Divas, please weigh in with your infinite wisdom. I've been trying to recapture that snappy turn feeling I had when I demoed the Free Luvs way back, and I've always thought that feeling was due to how narrow it was underfoot (76 vs. 86 on the Kenja, which I had at the time). Recent conversations have introduced a factor I hadn't even considered (ugh, feel like a noob again), which is turn radius.

So how much of that feeling (whee! short turns! edges!) was width underfoot, making it easier to get my skis on edge, and how much of it was the shorter turn radius (something like 10-11 m on the Free Luv vs. the 16-17 m on the Kenja)?

In other words, I guess I know what each is technically speaking, but how does that difference translate to skiing?
 

volklgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Width underfoot determines how easy it is to get up on edge and how much it floats in crappy snow. Turn radius determines the size of the turn the ski will willingly make without real rider input. Construction methods/materials and flex pattern determines the "snappiness", or rebound, of the ski.

I can't tell you specific percentages or ratios as all four characteristics blend together to determine the overall feel of the ski. If you are lighter, the combination of narrower, tighter turn radius, and softer flex of the Luv probably works better for you....the Kenjas require either weight or speed to really excel (as do most Volkls).

Does that help at all?
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The rebound is the ski unbending ... the ski has camber, and when you turn, you exert a force that bends the ski the other way and reverses that camber, sort of, and then when you release, the ski pops back into that camber and propels you to the next turn. (That was totally layman's language, someone ping Katy P et al.)

If you can't bend the ski in the turn, you won't get the rebound when it unbends. The Kenja sounds to be a bit stiffer than the Free Luv, thus it will take more force to bend. You are small, so go faster. :-)

And some skis are just more reboundy than others. I skied one of Head's skis with KERS last season, which is some technology that stiffens the tail, stores the energy, then releases it in the turn. It was literally launching me in the air between turns. Really fun, but a little scary. Word is that Bode asked for it because he loads his tails so much (as many racers do) and wanted a little more to get that energy out of doing that.

(Just make sure your bindings work right. I skied yesterday, and was making very fast turns like that, and as I rebounded, my outside ski popped off, and I flew. No chance to recover on the other ski, as it was unweighted at the time. Landed on my head, bloodied my temple -- yes, I was wearing a helmet. Very lucky that I wasn't injured, now that I think about it.)
 

mustski

Angel Diva
(Just make sure your bindings work right. I skied yesterday, and was making very fast turns like that, and as I rebounded, my outside ski popped off, and I flew. No chance to recover on the other ski, as it was unweighted at the time. Landed on my head, bloodied my temple -- yes, I was wearing a helmet. Very lucky that I wasn't injured, now that I think about it.)

Ouch! Very lucky.

Oh Divas, please weigh in with your infinite wisdom. I've been trying to recapture that snappy turn feeling I had when I demoed the Free Luvs way back, and I've always thought that feeling was due to how narrow it was underfoot (76 vs. 86 on the Kenja, which I had at the time). Recent conversations have introduced a factor I hadn't even considered (ugh, feel like a noob again), which is turn radius.

So how much of that feeling (whee! short turns! edges!) was width underfoot, making it easier to get my skis on edge, and how much of it was the shorter turn radius (something like 10-11 m on the Free Luv vs. the 16-17 m on the Kenja)?

In other words, I guess I know what each is technically speaking, but how does that difference translate to skiing?

I am a little confused about what you liked and disliked about the Black Pearls and the Kenja. It may be you are looking for a carver as opposed to an all mountain ski. When we ask a ski to do more, we give up something. There's always a trade off. I love my Auras but there are groomer days where I pull out my carvers and fly. If you ski mostly groomed hard pack and like fast, short turns then that sounds like a carver to me. In that case a narrower ski would be more to your liking.
 

Ellen

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Two other factor that I've found comes into play with the launch off the tails that Pinto accurately described are: the length of the tail (some slalom skis in a 155 have much shorter tails than other SL skis of the same length which fits some people's style (but not mine)) and your 2 skis could be different. Most important, I am guessing is where you have your weight at the point of the turn where the tail is loading rebounding. This is where the turn radius comes into play. When I want to get the most kick out of my SL tails with something like a 12 m radius, I need to be moving my body through the turn to completion where I load the tails just a bit faster than I do on a longer turning ski and then very quickly committing to the new turn with an aggressive move to take advantage of the kick. And on a GS skis with a 23 m radius, if I move my body through the turn as fast as I do on the SL, I don't get the kick out of the tails because the skis would not have fully bent by the time I finish the turn. At least this is the sense I have. So to go back to your question, my guess is that your timing was more perfectly matched to the ski on the shorter turning skis (and the width might come into play there). You might want to experiment with the wider, less turny skis with slowing down just a half or a quarter beat to find the tempo that best matches the skis. Maybe try doing an easy green with the Kenjas and trying making the same turn shape a little quicker or slower than you typically do to try to find the feel you are looking for. If it is a stiffness issue, you can try the same drill on the green just putting more force into different turns. It could also be that you are just a bit more forward on the bigger skis in the later point of the turn and are not loading the tails. But I am not a coach or instructor so who knows if this is going to be helpful and I am talking about very subtle differences that change the way I get the most propulsion from my tails when I race.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
B.E.G. - how long ago was your Free Luv demo? I seem to recall that you have been progressing quite rapidly - if so, then your tastes may have changed along with your abilities, and if you were to demo the Free Luv again, you might not feel the same way about them. The ski that rocked my world a couple of years ago had become an annoyance to me by the end of the season.

The turn radius is, to my understanding, the key stat when looking for tight carved turns - the turn radius by definition is the carved arc (what volklgirl said). But carving isn't the only type of turn - in non-groomer conditions, I tend to do a lot of smearing, which uses rotation of the skis (not the body), not just tipping on edge. So, depending on what type of turns you're doing, other factors may be more relevant to the size turn you're actually making. Also, there are a lot of bad habits that many of us have to varying degrees, like pushing the tails, Z-turns (rushing the turn), and using hip movement to turn (butt wiggle), all of which compromise the turn radius.

There's also the sheer weight of the ski (including binding and boots) - I'm not sure how much that matters in pure carving, but it definitely matters for other types of turns.

The stiffness and materials of the ski make a huge difference, as do the tip and tail dimensions and rocker characteristics - I have (don't ask) the Icelantic Nomad (105 underfoot, 156 length), Volkl Kikus (107 / 163?), and Line Celebrity 100s (105 / 165). The Nomads and Celebrities feel almost identical to me, even though they're pretty different underfoot and in length - the Kikus ski totally differently than the Celebrities even though they are very close in waist and length. (I'm not suggesting that you look at any of these particular skis - obviously they're all fairly wide underfoot, and we belong to opposite ends of the weight spectrum - just saying that there are a lot of stats other than waist to look at.)
 

snow addict

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Skis with smaller turn radius will be easier to turn on groomers. But I am with Mustski here and confused what you are looking for in a ski and where you ski most of the time. You progressed fast but maybe little bit too fast and largely skipped the time that is usually beneficial to spend on carvers with modest radius. Also, you moved to a longer ski probably sooner than you could properly work the whole length of it and are not loading the tails as Ellen said above - which can also happen with going long as you might end up in this case with riding tails and not controlling the tips properly. I think these Idylls that you mentioned in the other thread can be a good solution for you.
 

MaineSkiLady

Angel Diva
I’m going to agree with - and applaud - all of the advice and input given above - and make one notable distinction: the Idyll, while it does clearly have a shorter turning radius at 14 than what she has been skiing, is still a ski that can deliver some serious performance. It is not a “learning” (relative term) ski. That, in terms of the line, would be either the Active or Trendy, for stiffness. The Idyll will do the lower-speed stuff with minimal complaint, but it does have performance characteristics, per the rebound noted above by pinto – and has attempted to “buck me off” at least a couple of times this season!

So I guess this should serve as something as a “caveat” to OP. I frankly would not put the K2 Free Luv in the same ball park as the Idyll, in terms of its ultimate performance and output.

For what it’s worth, I would definitely never recommend either a Kenja or Black Pearl to a first or second year advancing skier, and the Idyll would be borderline - it would be more tolerant and slightly more forgiving (and less tiring!) - but is certainly capable of stepping up the pace, performance-wise. So if it’s “work the whole ski” and “tail-loading” that she is looking to master, that ski is going to RESPOND.
 

mustski

Angel Diva
I agree with MSL that finding the right ski for ability level is critical to enjoying your season. I wasn't recommending the Kenjas or the BPs, I just thought that knowing what you didn't enjoy might help to narrow down your choices. This is one of those situations where demoing would be really helpful. Hang in there, BEG, you will find the ski that makes you "woot" all the way down the mountain.
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
The stiffness and materials of the ski make a huge difference, as do the tip and tail dimensions and rocker characteristics - I have (don't ask) the Icelantic Nomad (105 underfoot, 156 length), Volkl Kikus (107 / 163?), and Line Celebrity 100s (105 / 165). The Nomads and Celebrities feel almost identical to me, even though they're pretty different underfoot and in length - the Kikus ski totally differently than the Celebrities even though they are very close in waist and length. (I'm not suggesting that you look at any of these particular skis - obviously they're all fairly wide underfoot, and we belong to opposite ends of the weight spectrum - just saying that there are a lot of stats other than waist to look at.)

Err. Dunno what I was thinking when I typed that. The Celebrity 100s are, unsurprisingly, *100* underfoot, not 105, which kind of undermines my specific example above. But the general truth still holds - there are a lot of factors beyond ski width and even radius to consider.
 

Celestron2000

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Well, I say demo the Superfree (againish). I think it may be exactly what your looking for. I sure find them tons of fun, and other skiers (more advanced than I) have agreed. Like others have said, go with what feels right, you'll know.
 
B

B.E.G.

Guest
This thread has definitely been helpful - thanks for everyone taking the time to respond! For a while now, I think I've just been equating turn radius with sidecut - i.e. narrow skis will have tighter turns. I was looking at the new line of all-mountain skis, thinking of what I want to demo in a couple of weeks, and got confused when I saw that the Temptation 88 has a radius of 11m at 154 (versus the BP at 16 m at 159, both 88 underfoot). Now I'm realizing that it's not just the waist (duh), but a combination of tip and tail dimensions as well. I'm clearly not a physics person!

Pequenita - I definitely think the Free Luv being an easier ski has something to do with it, especially when I was comparing it to the Kenja. It's been a couple of years, but I remember the main feeling I had was that I wasn't trying as hard to turn and it just happened!

Volklgirl - yes it does! And it helps clarify what I'm looking for in a ski - I like the easiness of getting a ski on edge that I get from a narrower ski (and not surprising, as I only started skiing a couple of years ago and I'm definitely still in the process of improving my skills), but skiing on the Kenja and BP also made me realize that I favor shorter radius turns (watch a video of me skiing helped me realize that too).

Pinto - oof! Glad you're ok! I see what you mean about not having rebound if you can't flex the ski properly. I feel like I'm starting to get a more technical sense (through this) of what I'm feeling as I ski different skis.

Mustski - I think that's what I'm looking for. Primarily a carver or all-mountain that's more suited for carving, for skiing short fast turns on hardpack. But I want it to be wide enough that several inches of fresh snow/powder won't be a problem either (since who knows what I'll get up here in Tahoe). So it sounds like I'm looking for something narrower than the Kenja or BP, but probably somewhere in the 78-82 width range, with a tighter turn radius. It's not that I didn't like the Kenja or BP, and they're both great on groomers, but that's not really the conditions they're meant for and I'll be on groomed runs more often than not.
 
B

B.E.G.

Guest
Ellen - you've given me a lot to think about! I sadly no longer have those Kenjas, but I will remember what you said about playing with the timing. I know that on the skis I had, I was struggling with making the quicker turns, though of course, that could be from a variety of factors as well as my timing issue!

Bounceswoosh - I definitely have a tendency to rush the turn. Just noticed that in watching myself. The demo was 2 years ago, towards the end of my first season? So things may definitely have changed in that time - I'd be interested to find the Super Free and see what I think. [I kind of want to ask how that quiver happened...! :P]

Snowaddict - I think there's some truth to what you're saying. I was taking lessons on the Kenjas too and was doing ok, but I think I would have benefited even more from waiting before going wider and longer. I feel like I kind of made it harder on myself! Impossible, no, but added challenges I didn't need? Yep.

MaineSkiLady - Yes, I definitely need to demo. What I wouldn't give for a demo day event or whatnot. Demoing will be more cost effective in the long run, but at a certain point, with $40-50 per demo, I need to make a solid shortlist of what I really really want to try!

Celestron - I think I will! For one thing, unlike some of the other skis I want to demo, it will be a lot easier to find. And also, the many great things I've heard about it (and liking the Free Luv back then) make me curious to see what I think now.

It sounds like I need to be looking at skis that are relatively softer (so probably stay away from Volkls) that will let me really flex the ski, in a narrower range (for the conditions and runs I generally ski), and with a smaller turn radius than the 16 m or so I've been skiing with the Kenja and BP (for my own personal preference).

Depending on what I can find and where, the Idyll and Super Free could be on that list. Perhaps the Rossis (Temptation 78 and 82), maybe the Belle to Belle. I have a really hard time finding Blizzards in general (I can usually find K2s, Rossis and Volkls the most). Anything else?
 

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Bounceswoosh - I definitely have a tendency to rush the turn. Just noticed that in watching myself. The demo was 2 years ago, towards the end of my first season? So things may definitely have changed in that time - I'd be interested to find the Super Free and see what I think. [I kind of want to ask how that quiver happened...! :P]
...
MaineSkiLady - Yes, I definitely need to demo. What I wouldn't give for a demo day event or whatnot. Demoing will be more cost effective in the long run, but at a certain point, with $40-50 per demo, I need to make a solid shortlist of what I really really want to try!

Err. You know, here and there ... they find me, they do! Also, the Kikus tricked me, I'm pretty sure. They were going to be my A/T skis, but now they're a second set of everyday skis.

Speaking of which, I have always been skeptical of demos. But I went to a demo day on a lark last season - the demo ticket included a lift ticket and lunch and ended up being cheaper than just a lift ticket would have been. Inevitably, the specific skis I might have wanted to try were unavailable, so I ended up just trying a little bit of everything. I learned a lot about which brands and styles I liked, and which I didn't (Kastle and I do *not* mix). And I just randomly tried those Line Celebrity 100s, which I loved so much that at the end of the season, I found a new pair in the right length at 60% and snapped them up. So don't get too hung up on exactly which skis to try, is my advice. Just keep an open mind and ski some brands you might never have tried before.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
but a combination of tip and tail dimensions as well

Exactly and add the construction materials inside the ski. The 88's 135 in the tip. My Attraxion 8's are 126 with the 75 underfoot. 135-88=47, 126-75=51. So, the difference between the tip and waist radio is similar. Probably why I like this ski!
 

Celestron2000

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Even if you can't find a demo day event, maybe you can demo from a place on the hill that will let you switch them out...
when you do, we want reviews! :thumbsup:

I would think the Blizzard Viva line should be on the short list, but I wasn't able to find any Blizzards to demo either.
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
It sounds like I need to be looking at skis that are relatively softer (so probably stay away from Volkls) that will let me really flex the ski, in a narrower range (for the conditions and runs I generally ski), and with a smaller turn radius than the 16 m or so I've been skiing with the Kenja and BP (for my own personal preference).

I wouldn't completely write-off Volkl, especially since you say they're easy to find out there, just look at their more mid-range/Int-Adv skis. My Lunas were ranked as an Intermediate ski, and I had no issues flexing them. I'm not sure what the new equivalents to the Luna and Sol would be, maybe the Viola and Chiara respectively?
 

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