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Riding vs. Driving

SarahXC

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks for the detailed analysis @liquidfeet!

How I was understanding these terms from use I have heard was different than how you explained it also! I guess just another example of the confusion around them. I was considering this difference of driving v. riding to do more with stance and center of mass. (Carving is not part of my skill set.)

I was (am still?) trying to explain what I experienced so I can understand how it might influence my ski choices in the future. I tried to ask this last year but don’t think I titled my post well so there wasn’t commenting on it. And maybe my vocabulary and understanding is better after another year too.

Basically the heavier (and I presume stiffer ski) when I had put strong pressure from the shins into the front of my boots (doing skidded turns) the ski’s performance shined, it felt solid and predictable and so I enjoyed making this control input when skiing it.

The other ski (which was lighter, shorter and perhaps also softer) when I made these control inputs the ski wasn’t unmanageable per se but it was less predictable and this lots of forward pressure input left me feeling less sure about... well about what I can’t really find words to say... balance or comfort... less confidence. When I stopped putting so much forward pressure and skied this ski balanced more to the mid foot it was lovely in its response and fun.

So I guess I am trying to figure out why? Is this what overpowering a softer ski feels like? Is the design intention of the second ski to be for a skier to balance more toward the mid foot? Is flex difference (longways, crossways, the flex pattern along the ski) the primary difference in the part of the design of the ski at play here? Is this a difference of design philosophy from different manufacturers? Maybe this is too analytical and I know “demo” is better but demos aren’t often readily available where I live so I am trying to understand as much as I can on the technical side.

Hope that makes more sense than my first attempt!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks for the detailed analysis @liquidfeet!

How I was understanding these terms from use I have heard was different than how you explained it also! I guess just another example of the confusion around them. I was considering this difference of driving v. riding to do more with stance and center of mass. (Carving is not part of my skill set.)

I was (am still?) trying to explain what I experienced so I can understand how it might influence my ski choices in the future. I tried to ask this last year but don’t think I titled my post well so there wasn’t commenting on it. And maybe my vocabulary and understanding is better after another year too.

Basically the heavier (and I presume stiffer ski) when I had put strong pressure from the shins into the front of my boots (doing skidded turns) the ski’s performance shined, it felt solid and predictable and so I enjoyed making this control input when skiing it.

The other ski (which was lighter, shorter and perhaps also softer) when I made these control inputs the ski wasn’t unmanageable per se but it was less predictable and this lots of forward pressure input left me feeling less sure about... well about what I can’t really find words to say... balance or comfort... less confidence. When I stopped putting so much forward pressure and skied this ski balanced more to the mid foot it was lovely in its response and fun.

So I guess I am trying to figure out why? Is this what overpowering a softer ski feels like? Is the design intention of the second ski to be for a skier to balance more toward the mid foot? Is flex difference (longways, crossways, the flex pattern along the ski) the primary difference in the part of the design of the ski at play here? Is this a difference of design philosophy from different manufacturers? Maybe this is too analytical and I know “demo” is better but demos aren’t often readily available where I live so I am trying to understand as much as I can on the technical side.

Hope that makes more sense than my first attempt!
Excellent description!

@SarahXC, if you are able to move your CoM fore and aft at will on these two different skis so that you can get each, with its mysterious differences, to behave the way you want, then you can ski either ski with confidence - on the terrain and on the conditions that were present when you did your demo. Congratulate yourself! So the question then becomes, which one did you like more?

Your specific questions aren't "too analytical." I've been asking such questions since I started skiing. But the answers are almost impossible to find. Identifying a ski by where if falls on a line with power on one end and finesse on the other just doesn't do much.

Binding placement on the ski and how much heel lift the binding gives your boots both have an enormous impact on how far forward of boot middle you will need to focus the pressures in order to get good behavior from your skis.

I've found that the best way to deal with this uncertainty, and with the difficulty of demoing before buying, is to keep increasing your skills so you can buy something you haven't been on but that you think you might like, then use your own trail-and-error experimenting to get the ski under you to do what you want. That's what I do.

I envy skiers who have far more time on skis and who have owned tons of different skis. Their experience will tell them what to buy and it will be reliable, mostly because they've bought so many in the past, some which they liked and others which they didn't. The rest of us fumble around in the dark. Unless, that is, we demo, fall in love, and buy that ski on the spot.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I both ride and drive my skis depending on the speed and sensations I am seeking. No doubt that a stiff ski, when "driven" can accelerate in a matter of split seconds and that feeling is pretty exhilarating. A softer ski can to a point, but then gets a bit overwhelmed by the speed factor. Just my experience, and not the techy answer you were seeking. It's been a long off season, so getting my head back in the game will take a little longer. So excited for this winter!
 

SarahXC

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@liquidfeet — you have given me great food for thought! The idea that there is an optimal steering pressure place in the front of ski where when you input the force leads to the desired skiing characteristics. I have always thought so much of not being too far aft — that you could put the pressure too far forward of that place and also have less performance (the other side of the bell curve as it were) that is an eye opener!

And that that angle between the shin and the ski will be the ankle flexion angle combined with any set up angle introduced between the toe and heel binding plates. Well now I’ll have to go see what I can find on the details between the Solomon Warden demo binding and the Marker Squire TCX demo bindings. I wonder if the demo bindings even use the same toe v heel difference as the commercially available version of these bindings. Hmmm... They might not.

The overall idea of increasing skills to be able to enjoy a variety of skiing styles based upon the conditions and equipment makes lots of sense to me.

@snoWYmonkey — don’t feel like your answer wasn’t technical enough to have value. I like the idea here of choosing how you want to interact with your ski. Not everyday are we in the same place mentally or physically.

I like the idea of preference versus right or wrong!
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Binding placement on the ski and how much heel lift the binding gives your boots both have an enormous impact on how far forward of boot middle you will need to focus the pressures in order to get good behavior from your skis.
I've had a chance twice to demo skis before and after a slight change in the binding placement. Once was on a name brand model at a MidA free demo day. The other time was with wood indie skis that were a very unusual design. Both times it was very clear that the placement made a noticeable difference. I was skiing very short trails, perhaps 3 min max after unloading the chair.

Mad Russian skis at Wachusett, long but very easy to turn
Mad Russian Wachusett 31Jan2018 - 3.jpg
 

finsterlee

Certified Ski Diva
Thanks for the detailed analysis @liquidfeet!

How I was understanding these terms from use I have heard was different than how you explained it also! I guess just another example of the confusion around them. I was considering this difference of driving v. riding to do more with stance and center of mass. (Carving is not part of my skill set.)

I was (am still?) trying to explain what I experienced so I can understand how it might influence my ski choices in the future. I tried to ask this last year but don’t think I titled my post well so there wasn’t commenting on it. And maybe my vocabulary and understanding is better after another year too.

Basically the heavier (and I presume stiffer ski) when I had put strong pressure from the shins into the front of my boots (doing skidded turns) the ski’s performance shined, it felt solid and predictable and so I enjoyed making this control input when skiing it.

The other ski (which was lighter, shorter and perhaps also softer) when I made these control inputs the ski wasn’t unmanageable per se but it was less predictable and this lots of forward pressure input left me feeling less sure about... well about what I can’t really find words to say... balance or comfort... less confidence. When I stopped putting so much forward pressure and skied this ski balanced more to the mid foot it was lovely in its response and fun.

So I guess I am trying to figure out why? Is this what overpowering a softer ski feels like? Is the design intention of the second ski to be for a skier to balance more toward the mid foot? Is flex difference (longways, crossways, the flex pattern along the ski) the primary difference in the part of the design of the ski at play here? Is this a difference of design philosophy from different manufacturers? Maybe this is too analytical and I know “demo” is better but demos aren’t often readily available where I live so I am trying to understand as much as I can on the technical side.

Hope that makes more sense than my first attempt!
I know what you mean :smile: I do think when you are progressing up the skill levels, you definitely are in control (driving), or get taken for a ride (riding). I hear ski reps describe skis this way all the time.
 

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