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Rant on seemingly gender bias...

maggie198

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I've noticed that many ski shops tend to underestimate the length of ski that "the little lady" might enjoy. Several shops have told me they don't stock lengths longer than 160-162 because there isn't much demand for the longer skis from their female customers. Then they try to sell you the ski you're interested in in a shorter length (heaven forbid if it's rockered...) that they have because they don't carry the size you need, instead of sizing the ski properly for your height and weight. I've been told by one ski shop employee, a young man, that I must be "hardcore" because I told him that his 150 cm ski in a model I wanted to demo wasn't really appropriate for my size. I am not petite! I don't consider myself hardcore - I certainly know my ability limitations, but I also know that I should not be sized to a beginner length. This does an injustice to both the skier, and the ski, because you're not getting the true experience of how the ski is meant to feel. I guess what bugs me is that so many shop employees (usually male) downgrade the abilities of female skiers, assuming we are all novices. And have stomped it into our heads that we should be skiing short skis, that we can't "handle" a longer ski. I've seen many ladies in my ski clinics sized down to a fairly short ski when they've just bought new skis.
I was demoing some skis at an on-mountain shop, and was requesting to try a few longer length models. A woman was there getting her performance demos handed to her, and she asked the shop guy why one would want longer skis than she was being given (very short). The guy told her because longer lengths are generally more stable. She said, "well stable is a good thing, isn't it? Why wouldn't I want longer skis?" Exactly. Because she has been used to skiing some little ski that a shop guy hands her and says it will do.
Do they do this to the male skier? I don't think so. Partly because men usually overestimate their abilities when talking about equipment. They are all great, lol. I know several guys who have gone out and bought
xpert skis, both model-wise and lengthwise, when they're low intermediates at best. But they will never admit that to the salesperson. Women, on the other hand, tend to underestimate their abilities, and often our cautious natures prevent us from just going out there and charging down the mountain without knowing what we're doing, whereas many guys I've known, family members included, do just the opposite.

Obviously there's a market for the shorter length skis, for your truly petite and lightweight skiers, and beginners as well. But if a company makes a range of lengths in a female specific ski, they've made them because that's the typical size range of your average female skier. Shouldn't a shop carry those lengths to accomodate that range?

What has brought this rant on is the range of comments I've heard recently from ski shops while looking for a particular rockered ski in the next size up from 162. More than one shop has said they never brought in the longer length because women don't want a ski over 160 cm. Oh, and several shops don't carry the more advanced models because women don't want them either. But they had Volkl V-werks in a full range of sizes ($1500 ski). Really? I've left these shops shaking my head. I know it's a matter of them spending their money on stock that they think is going to sell, but I bless the knowledgable shops that take a risk and carry the higher end models for women, and in the full range of sizes.

Rant done.
 

lisamamot

Angel Diva
I am unfortunately experiencing this first hand. Hence my Yumi 161! I asked a couple different shops "shouldn't I be looking at this in a 168" and got "Whoa, a 168? No, no, the 161 is perfect. Lots of guys are only skiing 167 or 170's". I ended up thinking, ok, they're the experts and got the 161. I could have ordered the 168 online, and in hindsight I know I could have pulled it off.

As I have noted on a couple threads, the 161 isn't a total mistake...it's tons of fun in all the soft pile-ups and it inspires me out of my on-piste comfort zone, but the 168 may very well have alleviated my chatter issue and kept me a one ski girl for awhile. To be fair, perhaps the softness of the Yumi just lends itself to a bit of chatter at certain speeds on hardpack and the Wild Belle may have been a better choice. Still trying to decide why my heart said Yumi instead of Wild Belle..they were very similar, it just seemed like the Yumi edged better. Maybe it was sharper?! Anyway, they would have tried to sell the Wild Belle to me in the 162 as well, and I would have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. Just noticed they make the Wild Belle in both a 170 and a 178! In New England 170 would be my top size, but I suppose out West some gals rock the 178.

You are sooooo right...in New England they don't stock anything over a 162/163. Not at the mountains, not in the shops.

I am going to be very skeptical, and frankly pushy, moving forward when it comes to the "right" size for me. Of course, I'll stop here for advice too and next time desperately wait for an answer before buying :wink:
 

vanhoskier

Angel Diva
I haven't had an issue with shop personnel trying to put me on short skis. In fact, a few encouraged me to try longer lengths. Granted, longer lengths are harder to find, because they don't sell as many, so they don't stock as many. But I've had my shop guy say he could order what I was interested in. It's been in demos where I've sometimes had difficulty finding long enough women's skis. However, no rep has ever put me on something too short. They'll just tell me that they don't have the right length.
 

mustski

Angel Diva
I am only 5'2", 145lbs, and I ski a mid 160 ish with rocker and I experienced that at Diva West! Almost all the women's demos were in the 150 range. I only wanted something in the low 160's and the guy just didn't have much!
 

snow cat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I completely agree with you @maggie198. I bought my skis in September in length that the shop employee recommended and I find it now to be too short (at 142). I can't believe I already "grew out of" my new skis!!

So I had demoed few skis in 152 cm out west and when I went back to another local ski shop to rent skis in a longer length, the employee/manager advised against getting the rental at 155 cm that I wanted to try and got me 150 cm ones instead. I even told them I was fine on 152s.

I don't know what's with local ski shops. I don't want to buy new skis every year (well, I would if money wasn't an issue...LOL) but maybe that's what they want me to do by having me on shorter skis.
 

Christy

Angel Diva
I've heard stories like this so I know it happens a lot. I'm fortunate that it hasn't happened to me and in fact I've had guys suggest that I try even longer skis that I've wanted, or even men's skis on one occasion. I used to feel like demos were all too long for me but now that I'm on longer skis I probably won't think that anymore.
 

litterbug

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think it depends on your shop and where, geographically you are. Out west.....longer no problem. Here in the east - you want what???

We had a thread..https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/i...en-say-the-darndest-things.15499/#post-218355. awhile back....
I'm not sure that's entirely true; maybe they do better with rockered skis because it's well known that they ski short, but I suspect they still don't give us the length we need. I haven't seen many women's demo skis in the 170s here, and sometimes they don't even mid-160s, which is what I ski, and both rental/demo and retail stores stock more men's models and inevitably leave out popular women's all-mountain and powder skis.

OTOH, I have an advantage in Salt Lake, which is rich in strong female skiers who expect good gear. I still think stores under-stock great women's ski models, and sometimes don't even have my length, which is only mid-160s, but lately I've run into salespeople and managers here in SLC who say they know it's a problem and try to make up for it. The regional buyer for Christie's told me that they've started paying more attention to women's gear needs, stocking more technical gear, and looking at the customer, not some image of what the customer 'should' be.

Many men do get poor treatment, especially if they're beginners or seem uncertain. I've seen more than a few guys on epic who wondered whether their 140 or 150 cm rentals were too short for their close-to-6', 180+ pound frame. But that's little consolation, because I suspect that male sales and rental workers see women as the same type of customer--weaker, unskilled, and peripheral. I'm sure management has a hand in this, but I also blame ski and snowboard culture, where woman athletes are scarce and those that do make it are objectified and sexualized.

I wish every woman who'd been conned into renting or buying toothpicks by dismissive shop staff would write a note to the manager saying she'd been badly served and that she was going to take any future business elsewhere and post her experience on a well-known woman's ski forum. That might start some change...
 

litterbug

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I don't know what's with local ski shops. I don't want to buy new skis every year (well, I would if money wasn't an issue...LOL) but maybe that's what they want me to do by having me on shorter skis.
I doubt they're smart enough to think of it. :wink: And whenever someone's trying to give me skis in the 150s I just ignore them. Who cares what they think I should ski? I don't remember your height, but it's just wrong to give you short skis. Longer skis, within reason, are more stable, which will give you more confidence and help you grow as a skier.

You know, this makes me think. All those women I see on the green slopes who have clearly skied for a while but are braking and stemming their way down, maybe I should pay attention to their ski length, and when I'm tired I should sneak onto the lift with them and whisper in their ear that they might try renting something longer just for giggles.

Would that be too creepy? :eyebrows:
 

pinto

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I completely agree with you @maggie198. I bought my skis in September in length that the shop employee recommended and I find it now to be too short (at 142). I can't believe I already "grew out of" my new skis!!

So I had demoed few skis in 152 cm out west and when I went back to another local ski shop to rent skis in a longer length, the employee/manager advised against getting the rental at 155 cm that I wanted to try and got me 150 cm ones instead. I even told them I was fine on 152s.

I don't know what's with local ski shops. I don't want to buy new skis every year (well, I would if money wasn't an issue...LOL) but maybe that's what they want me to do by having me on shorter skis.

142?? Unless you are 9 years old, really??
 

abc

Banned
Well, I don't go to demo a lot nor do I buy skis often. But I don't seem to get too badly treated. Perhaps because I'm light (though not exactly petite) for my height so the skis I'm interested in are indeed in the range shops stock.

I am only 5'2", 145lbs, and I ski a mid 160 ish with rocker and I experienced that at Diva West! Almost all the women's demos were in the 150 range. I only wanted something in the low 160's and the guy just didn't have much!
I was at Burke last weekend and the local shop was having a demo day. They had a 161 Vokl Charisma available for demo! As it turned out, I liked it on the open slope but didn't like it in the bumps. Unfortunately, the next size down (154) was out and I wasn't able to try it. So I left not knowing if I like the ski or not.

The guy at the tent was ready to give me a man's skis to try on too.
 

Pequenita

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
142?? Unless you are 9 years old, really??

I think 142-length women's skis are killing the industry and should not be manufactured as adult-line skis. There are like 5 healthy adult women who are the right size to ski a 142, and they probably don't all ski. So, instead, the 142s are being mis-sold to unsuspecting women for whom it is flat out the wrong length. But I already went on a rant about that in a different thread.
 

volklgirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
For sure. When I look at skis and walk away saying they don't have anything long enough for me, they chase me down and say "We have a 161!". Really? Then I tell them I ski on 168 carvers and 177 twin/pow boards and get "Whoa, you're pushing some BIG skis!!" Again, really? Did you even LOOK at me????? I weigh as much as most men, DUDE. Seriously! Grrrrrrrrrr.

SO pissed that Volkl decided to downsize the Aura years ago and hope they haven't made that mistake on the new Aura or The One.
 

SkiBam

Angel Diva
I suppose as a shortie I'm glad there are options in shorter lengths. But even I (at under 5 ft) have learned 142 is too short. So, as someone said, I can't imagine what adult women they would be for.
 

artistinsuburbia

Angel Diva
Manufacturers are totally guilty. Did you see what they are naming skis?...the armada "VJJ" (va-jay-jay), the t-9 for title nine series from k2', and someone has a "beaver" slated for 2015. Tell me that isn't gender bias and completely offensive, not to mention an insult to our intelligence?? As if we wouldn't catch on! Talk about an industry inside joke! Not nice! Shops I don't blame as much because a lot of impulse beginners buy skis there and they just can't sell the longer lengths and better quality skis. Demand determines supply. So then they have to sell inventory so of course they are going to push a shorter ski that they have in stock. It's no different than the car dealer pushing the red car they have versus the graphite one you want. Divas rise up and use your brains and spines!
 

MaineSkiLady

Angel Diva
But why limit yourself to women's skis? Men's skis are the baseline for all manufacturers, and there's a lot more variety there.
Yes. Bottom line.
There WAS a time when women-specific skis didn't exist. Then came "shrink it & pink it." :rolleyes:

I do agree with above about some of the model names and graphics. VJJ. Really.
Pass.
 

altagirl

Moderator
Staff member
Could someone tell me what's offensive about a reference to Title 9, the legislation that's resulted in big progress in women's athletics? Did I miss a memo? :dunno:

I was thinking the same thing. Title 9 is a good thing.

In fact, there's a women's athletic clothing store named Title 9 and I've never heard anyone complain about it before.

There is a whole thread on the VJJ. I agree that it's pretty juvenile humor, but honestly, it doesn't bother me much. I thought the original VJJ graphics were kind of out of the question for me, but the current graphics are pretty, and the name is just... silly. But if it offends you, don't buy them!
 

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