racing question

[liquidfeet]

I am a relatively new racer, and have trouble keeping an edge on the skied off slick surface. I know what I have to do technically and am working on it.

However, I am wondering if a different pair of skis might help. So here's my question, and it's just about gear this time.

If I'm currently skiing on a pair of short, stiff skis that people tell me are rather unforgiving, would I be able to keep that edge on that "ice" in the gates better if I were on skis that were more "forgiving?"

This weekend someone who has skied for many years told me that this is true. He said that longer skis with more longitudinal flex, (thus with a longer sweet spot and a more forgiving nature), would allow me to keep my edge grip and carve better than my short (154 cm) stiff skis.

Is this true?

 

[Elangirl]

This is an interesting question. I know that a more forgiving flex would allow you to arc better and in that way, make it easier to edge on hard ice. I am not sure of the extra length---that does not make sense to me.

I am really happy on the new Elan wave technology--which has torsional stiffness, but easier flex. I am using the Speed Magic which I think you would love--but I use them in a 152 and don't think extra length would help me arc better. The Speed Magic is the woman's version of the Speedwave 14, it has an aluminum frame all around it which increases the torsional rigidity. I would love to hear from you after you demo some Speed Magics to see if you would arc better. I find that I have so much more angulation with my new skis--and that would help in the edge hold category as well. Good luch--I have never raced---it looks like fun but around here the races happen at night and I am too cold by then.

 

[liquidfeet]

I'd love to demo them. So far most of the demo days around here, at least the ones that I could have attended, have been cancelled due to rotten conditions. I'm keeping my eyes open, however. It snowed today in New Hampshire - a whopping two-three inches!!! Everyone is happier than before. This is so pathetic.

The skis have to hold on ice for racing, that's the determining factor. (We do have plenty of ice.) I don't know enough about skis to know if rigid skis are needed for ice or not, but I think they are. There are two kinds of rigidity/flex, torsional and longitudinal, I think. Maybe only torsional rigidity is necessary for ice grip.

Anyone know?

 

[Lynn]

I would suggest you post this question at Realskiers.com, under the gear forum. There are a smaller group of gear-a-holics who seem to know the characteristics of almost all recent skis. The guru of gear is BarrettSvc. who also posts on Epic. A real gentleman and the guy knows his skis.

 

[ski diva]

I've always heard that longitudinal stiffness is key to stability, while torsional stiffness is more important for edge hold. Also, the more torsionally stiff a ski is, the less forgiving.

Then again, I'm no gearheard.

 

[volklgirl]

The short answer is 'yes' a slightly longer, softer ski will help you on ice. The racers that can hold a serious edge on stiff skis are usually very strong and with great technique. The stiffer skis will magnify any minor technique mistakes, causing them to bounce around, break loose, and skid out rather than continue to hold the line. But you have to be careful not to go the other way.... a too soft ski will vibrate and 'flap', also causing it to break loose and skid.

However, understand that 90% of skidding on ice is technique, not equipment. Often, it's because the turn was started too late and too close to the gate so instead of a clean line and fairly even pressure throughout the turn, there's tons of pressure on the skis at the end of the turn causing them to break loose.

Your best bet to see if different skis will help is to try to demo, preferably in the race course (like at a training camp or while a Nastar course is set up). Try bunches of skis and check your times on each. Look for the skis that allow you to ski the righ, round line without skidding out.

Oh, and on your current skis....make sure you keep them super sharp and well polished. If you spend much time on icy courses, you may want to make sure your side edge bevel is 3deg, not 2deg - it will cut into the ice much better.

 

[liquidfeet]

The short answer is 'yes' a slightly longer, softer ski will help you on ice. The stiffer skis will magnify any minor technique mistakes, causing them to bounce around, break loose, and skid out rather than continue to hold the line. But you have to be careful.... a too soft ski will vibrate and 'flap', also causing it to break loose and skid.

I weigh 130, and am 5'5" tall. I'm skiing on 2 year old Volkl Supersports (with pink stars, no less) for women, the "highest" recreational ski Volkl made for women two years ago. They were never rated as a particular number of stars, I presume because they only made one "starred" ski for women and there would have been nothing comparable to compare them to.

Given my weight and height, are these stiff skis? Are they torsionally stiff, or longitudinally stiff?

VolklGirl, I'm depending on you to know this one! I will also take the advice of asking this question elsewhere. Thanks ahead of time.

 

[volklgirl]

time to add to the quiver!

Liquidfeet;

You are on the Gamma 4 Star. It is a recreational ski, and while fairly stiff longitudinally, it was designed to be forgiving for intermediate to advanced skiers, so it's not super stiff torsionally.

If you're taking your racing seriously, it's time for you to get a quiver :D . A junior race GS ski in 160-170ish would probably be appropriate for your weight. I know my "cheater" skis at 173 tended to break loose and chatter, but my new Racetigers at 180 are rock-solid. IMHO and personal experience, the cap construction of the cheater ski makes a difference as well - while the main construction of the ski may be softer, I think the cap distributes the forces differently and makes them act stiffer. I'm much happier with the sandwich sidewall construction of the racestock skis.

 

[volklgirl]

ps.

I'm curious to hear the comments of the gear-a-holics at Realskier to see if I'm close to having a clue or waaaay off base. :o

 

[liquidfeet]

It seems I have to pay 19.95 to register. I am at realskiers.com. Is that the right place?
Or, alternatively, they have to have my password and I just can't figure out how to do that then post. Me stupid?

 

[ski diva]

No, you have to subscribe to post there or to have access to their complete gear reviews.

 

[volklgirl]

Hey Liquidfeet;

I posed your question on the Nastar forum to see what all the race/equipment geeks over there think. There's some seriously knowledgable guys that site. I'll let you know what their responses are.

 

[liquidfeet]

Hey Liquidfeet;I posed your question on the Nastar forum to see what all the race/equipment geeks over there think. There's some seriously knowledgable guys that site. I'll let you know what their responses are.

Thanks! (I am spending way too much time on this forum.....)

 

[volklgirl]

Thanks! (I am spending way too much time on this forum.....)

Aren't we all??? As long as you're not blowing off ski time to sit here.... :D

 

[Lynn]

Liquidfeet
Like you, I am spending too much time on the ski forums. If I could actually ski, I would probably be too tired to be hanging out so much!!!
I join annually at Realskiers and will see if I can post your question. I don't know how to transfer this stuff so I will paraphrase.
Volkgirl seems to have a real grasp of ski characteristics, but not that many women who are experienced racers have joined (yet), so a little more info might be helpful.
Let's see what the boys say. I always get a kick out of reading their stuff.
Lynn

 

[Lynn]

P.S.
Liquidfeet, what are your stats?
Ht.
Wt.
current skis
Boots

They tend to want to know these things. Ooh, just saw that your question is posted on a racing site.
L.

 

[liquidfeet]

5'5" high.
130 lbs heavy.
fit. strong enough.
Volkl Gamma SuperSports, 2 years old, women's version with pink stars. 12.5 turn radius; 154 cm; sharp and waxed.
Atomic T-9 boots, women's, 2 years old, canted, foot-bedded, ground and punched till he doesn't wanna see me walk in the door.
Fast and confident on the slopes, even with pretty hard snow. Working on arc-to-arc turns on hard snow outside the gates.
Not able to do it inside the gates at all yet. Skidding. Technique needs improvement, needless to say.
2nd year racing.

 

[volklgirl]

1st response from Nastar gang...

Okay I'll throw my hat at this one. Here's what I think. If they are not able to flex the ski they have now then yes a softer ski may help. However, a to soft ski will chatter at speed and give the same results as a ski that is to stiff. I guess the trick is to find the right ski for their weight and strength to flex the ski correctly. I know many of skiers that have the same problem but are on the correct skis. Sometimes it's just the nature of the course/ice.

Another thing to consider is tuning. If your edges are not tuned you could have problems.
Just what I think.

Hmmmm..sounds almost exactly like what I said. Maybe I'm not a poser after all???;) By the way, I've raced against this guy. No, wait. Maybe I should say I raced in the same course as him....he blew away everyone on the course that day.

 

[liquidfeet]

Let's see what the boys say.

Lynn, I agree, I like reading on Epic when the "boys" start talking tech. VolklGirl is big into tech talk here. SnowHot talks tech about gear. There are others here too who like the details. I love it, and am waiting for the techhhy women to flow into this webspace and fill it up! Won't that be fun. I wonder how it will sound - different than the boyz, or the same?

 

[Lynn]

Liquidfeet
Michael Barrett responded briefly ( I think he's actually in china on business) that he would recommend a Junior GS race ski in 165. He noted that www.ski-depot.com has skis on sale there.
I will let you know if any other pertinent info flows.