Question on Etiquette and Resort Personality

[Slow Sarah]

A couple of my own thoughts. I am often the only person, with a student, stopped to the side of a wide run, and still people come dangerously close when passing us. I have come to believe that it is the old adage of we go where we look. In other words, if I am skiing downhill and visually focused on the object I need to avoid, I will actually be drawn to it. This may sound familiar from bicycling. If I look at the post in the bike path I wish to avoid, I will likely hit it, while I need to actually look at the wide empty space where I hope to end up. The problem for us skiers and snowboarders is that the object is not stationary, so we have to keep looking at it to react to an unexpected move. Unlike cars on the interstates where we assume they will use a turn signal before pulling out in front of us when we pass.

Also, I suspect that big city people ski like they drive. Tight and cozy with those around them. Not their fault, but when space is shared, we learn to be comfortable with less personal space. Just a theory, but I see it on other aspects of daily living.

Finally, in terms of where to ski on the slopes, you are spot on about picking a lane and staying in it while skiing. As to which side or middle, I find that it depends really. I always coach my students to leave a wide enough slot on the sides for other to pass, as fast skiers often like to ski the sides and have nowhere to go when passing on the edge. The middle is often good for my slower students as it gives passers two options on each side. When I switch lanes or pass someone, I always look uphill as I do not want to get hit from behind. Who cares if I have the right of way, I do not want to get hurt in the first place.

It is also worth noting that in some resorts, the edges are the most dangerous, especially early season. Kids and adults that like to jump, often jump back onto the run from the sides, without looking first. Granted, they are 100 per cent at fault, but why even risk it.

I have also noticed that faster skiers tend to come in batches, even if they are not skiing together. It is worth it to pull over if at all in doubt about their skills, or lack of skills. This is where being good at movement analysis is a bonus and worth pursuing even for non instructors. I can quickly spot likely out of control people.

In 22 seasons I have only had two collisions of note. Both with my own students and I was hit from behind both times. They were the ones I was not watching out for as much. We can't avoid all risk, but constant reassessment of the people, and snow conditions, can minimize those risks.

This is validating and helps me keep some perspective. I like to have the point of view of others. I also know I won’t always be able to stay perfectly out of the way at all times but keeping in mind other factors such as evident popularity of certain areas helps. I have noticed some places do have pretty deep tracks through the trees and people do indeed come out through the trees. One day . Thanks so much!

 

[Slow Sarah]

It sounds like for a variety of reasons, you and the other skiers are competing for the same lane - you because it’s out of the way/not the middle, them because it’s where the best snow on a groomed run often is. I don’t think the fast passing is an intentional attempt to haze other skiers. If someone in front of me is skiing predictably (or predictably unpredictably), I often move past them as quickly as I can so as not to linger and potentially get hit. I’ve been on both ends of this equation (been buzzed in a crazy narrow lane between myself and trees), and like @snoWYmonkey been hit from behind while in a clinic (I was a student, another student slid into me. Moral of the story: if you hear someone cussing while skiing, stop at the edge and see what is going on because it could be that they’re in an uncontrolled slide headed towards you).

“Predictably unpredictable” is a great term and true.
I once was skiing with someone where every time we started out they would let me make about ten turns and then slice in front of me on the right and slow down and struggle. I wasn’t able to let them just go first so ended up sliding way over to the left but seemed only able to do this after I heard them start behind me. That was a weird situation though where someone else was direction who went first.
I also try to get past other skiiers and base how far away I should go to get around on their rhythm or how many drastic changes there are. On my end I don’t want my rhythm to signal that I am consistent when I am really not. There is an art to all of this sometimes, depending on multiple factors.
Good reminder about the clinics too!
Thank you!

 

[Slow Sarah]

I sometimes teach days of back to back wedge only skiers...great motivation for me to get them out of that stance. Another option is occasional side slips, but most of my students, even advanced ones, do not have the skills to side slip in a straight line on almost flat terrain, let alone steep terrain.

My knees are hurting for the first time in 22 full time seasons. Not sure if it is the extra pounds, a recent middle of the body traumatic injury and referred pain, or just years of wear and tear.

I will look up side slips and see where I go with that. I love love all of this feedback from an instructor perspective.
Good to know I am not the only one with the knees though in my case I can blame, pounds and lack of technique!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

@liquidfeet at our home hill we have to teach all our lower level students how to side slip. They have to be able to do so in both directions before we can take them up a blue run as they are so steep that sometimes the students freeze and are unable to make a turn.

I recall my dearest friend who was new to skiing in her late 40s, commenting after a watching an extreme ski film, that the pros side slipped, whereas she thought it was only a survival move for newbies. For certain, the most important skill on so many levels. A key component of a hockey stop too!

I love your trainer who did not tell everyone what the solution was or expected answer.

 

[AJM]

In Toas specifically our instructor had us playing up on the uphill sides of most cat tracks. So skiing up the side bank of snow and back down. Lots of the cat tracks there seem to have a one sided almost half pipe like quality that was useful in practicing some drills she wanted us to do with being patient and unweighting at the top while allowing the new inside ski to follow along in the turn etc.. I'm probably not explaining it well, but it was really fun! Wish we had more cat tracks like that where I normally ski. It ended up being super useful when we got in some trees that had a natural half pipe/drainage shaped quality to them as well later in the week.

We have 2 rather sketchy cat tracks out to our more technical terrain and I seldom actually ski on the track itself as they tend to get icy, I either ski above or bellow them depending on which has the better snow.

 

[AJM]

If someone in front of me is skiing predictably (or predictably unpredictably), I often move past them as quickly as I can so as not to linger and potentially get hit.

Me too !!

 

[AJM]

Quick aside:

A couple of years ago I was in an instructor's clinic being taught by an examiner who was a national team hopeful. She had us doing sideslips towards her, on a low-pitch narrow trail. Our goal was to head straight down to her, not allowing any left or right travel. She gave us no guidance on how to keep our travel straight, and the snow surface was definitely not flat. It was soft and would pile up in front of us. There was a bit of half-pipe shape to the trail, and a bit of lumpiness, so there was the real challenge for this bunch of ski instructors. Success was not easy for our group.

After each attempt, we explained to her and the group, one at a time, what we did to keep ourselves on a straight track. Everyone seemed to try something different. She did not tell us which approach she found most effective. That was interesting. I did not watch the group because I was too intensely watching the snow surface and my line along it. But people did not report a lot of success.

For whatever reason, what I did delivered good results and they improved as we did repeats. I felt like I became a side-slip expert that afternoon. What I learned doing that slow task on a cat-track was quite helpful for my skiing for the rest of the week. That's not because I sideslipped, but because I transferred my sideslipping stuff to all kinds of turns on all kinds of terrain.

After that exercise, I decided that side-slipping was an overlooked core skill, and that it would be very helpful if it were taught more deliberately to beginners and all intermediates.

Happy to say I am a QUEEN at side slipping and often use that skill to get me through less than desirable conditions. Hubby and I were skiing a very steep face late last season and the top few metres were icy death cookies (off a cat track so the groomer debris had frozen solid with it being Spring) before it smoothed out into corn, I side slipped through the icy bit and viola !!

 

[Slow Sarah]

Happy to say I am a QUEEN at side slipping and often use that skill to get me through less than desirable conditions. Hubby and I were skiing a very steep face late last season and the top few metres were icy death cookies (off a cat track so the groomer debris had frozen solid with it being Spring) before it smoothed out into corn, I side slipped through the icy bit and viola !!

Gonna get on this then. Those ice sheets are terrifying. Luckily I have always been able to get off pretty quickly, but if I couldn’t I’d be like Gus Gorman in Superman III!

 

[SkiBam]

Happy to say I am a QUEEN at side slipping and often use that skill to get me through less than desirable conditions. Hubby and I were skiing a very steep face late last season and the top few metres were icy death cookies (off a cat track so the groomer debris had frozen solid with it being Spring) before it smoothed out into corn, I side slipped through the icy bit and viola !!

I've heard sideslipping described as "losing altitude gracefully." It's a key skill in my opinion.

 

[echo_VT]

We also don’t take students to go to blues without learning side slipping and getting really comfortable executing! It doesn’t have to be perfect, it has to just be something the students can go to easily which means both sides.

I really like snowymonkey’s take.

in the original post OP said 12 ski lengths is the turn width. At most New England resorts this would be the entire trail. Not sure where you’re skiing that it’s wide enough for that but that’s kind of cool bc one can take their time during the turn to execute what comes next. I understand due to level it might not be feasible or possible to make the turn tighter. Like others have said, look up to see if anyone’s coming. If so, feel free to pull over to the side like others have stated.

that said it isn’t easy to look over the shoulder for every single turn, so if you can tighten up your radius, it’s worth it to learn. On shallow terrain this should be manageable. Then can take it to

just as snowymonkey said, even though you have right of way as the downhill skier it’s not worth the risk of being hit by an out of control skier going too fast for their ability. Also if they are looking at you, chances are they will go toward you. Even when I wait at the side I’m looking up. I’ll often ski or move away further if I think their trajectory is heading toward me. If I’m skiing in a group I will shout warnings in the group unaware. It’s just not worth it to not ski defensively to me. I like skiing too much and want to protect my body and take all the necessary measures to ensure it to the best of my ability.

 

[Slow Sarah]

I've heard sideslipping described as "losing altitude gracefully." It's a key skill in my opinion.

I have seen one video so far. Seems somewhat familiar. I think I more slide, scrape and traverse if I have to but this looks way more graceful.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

I have seen one video so far. Seems somewhat familiar. I think I more slide, scrape and traverse if I have to but this looks way more graceful.

Think of side slipping as the opposite of traversing. High edge for traverse, flat ski for side slipping. Side slipping os the key skill to mastering short radius slow turns.

 

[Jilly]

SnowCat width or 2 is a normal east coast turn.

 

[TiffAlt]

Man I really need to work on my side slipping

 

[marzNC]

I have seen one video so far. Seems somewhat familiar. I think I more slide, scrape and traverse if I have to but this looks way more graceful.

Here's a look at extended side slipping on a groomer.

We had a discussion about side slipping a while back. I knew from my own experience learning to ski on straight skis long ago that side slipping is a fundamental skill. As a beginner, it was a survival skill. I was an adventurous intermediate for a few decades when I wasn't skiing that much. Knowing how to side slip and do Falling Leaf meant that exploring terrain I was unfamiliar with was possible without much worry. Meaning blues at big mountains, but if a section was as steep as a black I knew I could always get down by side slipping until I reached a point where I could start making turns again.

After taking lessons as an advanced skier in recent years (after age 50), I have a much better appreciation of the skills that can be practiced while side slipping on groomers that apply on more complex terrain. Most skiers have a good side and a bad side for side slipping. As a survival skill, that's not as big a deal. As a fundamental skill that leads to improving technique, it's worthwhile to practice side slipping on the weak side deliberately.

 

[Slow Sarah]

Think of side slipping as the opposite of traversing. High edge for traverse, flat ski for side slipping. Side slipping os the key skill to mastering short radius slow turns.

Excellent. Thanks for the visual. This will definitely require practice!

 

[Slow Sarah]

SnowCat width or 2 is a normal east coast turn.

Am I picturing that correctly…like 1/2 the run?

 

[Jilly]

Depends on how wide your snowcats are and the slope you're skiing on. I quite often will only use about 12 feet of the hill to ski. That's not short turns, more medium. If I do longer, then I'll open up the speed demon and go!

 

[Slow Sarah]

Depends on how wide your snowcats are and the slope you're skiing on. I quite often will only use about 12 feet of the hill to ski. That's not short turns, more medium. If I do longer, then I'll open up the speed demon and go!

That sounds about right but is it possible that in some instances that I am shooting for only 6 feet and in reality only taking up 12 max, unless of course I hit an icy patch, then maybe 12 or 18 ft at the outside. I may be giving myself too much credit but your saying 12 feet somehow makes me feel much much better.

Yes and yes! Once the hill is open I am a completely different person.

 

[santacruz skier]

That sounds about right but is it possible that in some instances that I am shooting for only 6 feet and in reality only taking up 12 max, unless of course I hit an icy patch, then maybe 12 or 18 ft at the outside.

Oh my, I wouldn't worry about that at all..... Just be aware of your surroundings at all times. That goes for any level of skier. I'm always watching what's going on around me and I've been skiing decades.