question about Q factor

[liquidfeet]

Some skiers' knees track inward when they flex their legs. This is really pronounced in my knees. I can see it very clearly when in the gym doing squats while facing a mirrored wall. I believe there is a measure of some part of the body, called the Q factor or Q angle;it is most pronounced in women and has something to do with this inward tracking of the knees.

When I am in a tuck position, during a race, this means my knees touch each other.

Should I fight this? Is it dangerous to be going so fast with the knees propped against each other? Actually if I hold the tuck for a long time, this propping helps me stay in it longer. There's a rest-factor to my Q-factor.

Hope someone has some information on this one.

 

[Pequenita]

Can the Q angle be corrected through boot fitting? I wonder only because I've had an orthopedic surgeon pretty alarmed at mine...

I'm not sure if the Q angle or the knees together is really your "problem." But, the effect of having the Q angle allows you to rest, which means that your quads are not fully engaged (I'm assuming this is the primary muscle group). Studies concerning women athletes have demonstrated that women do not fire their hamstrings simultaneously with quads; this muscle imbalance is at the heart of many ACL tears (granted, during jumping, etc. actions). I think I'd make sure that the leg muscles are all fully engaged rather than rely on the perceived advantage of the Q angle; of course, I defer to those who have first-hand knowledge in this area!

 

[Quiver Queen]

Impress your friends: the knock-kneed trait is also called "genu valgus." I fight mine with partial success thru boot canting, but effects on racing??? Haven't a clue. I just try to tell myself that, even tho' it doesn't look good in pictures, the condition helps me load an inside edge.

 

[liquidfeet]

By the way, the boots are canted. But get down into a tuck and boot canting just isn't up to the job. It's way down there in the boot, far away from the completely folded up body.

 

[treebunny]

all i've ever heard is that a-framing is very bad, and the main reason women have more sport related injuries. in skiing it is impossible to have parallel edges if you ski knock-kneed. if you are doing squats train yourself to direct your knees straight ahead over your toes to increase their stability.

 

[eng_ch]

Interesting - I have this a bit too, combined with slight over-pronation. Yes, it can be compensated for by boot-fitting, but my boot-fitter suggested (a suggestion I'm taking up) that before he, to all intents and purposes, treats the symptoms I should tackle the cause and take a therapy course - which may only be available in Switzerland - of something called "Spiraldynamik". It has nothing to do with "spiral dynamics" the business theory thing, but is more like physiotherapy exercises.

My problems seem to stem from my late teenage years when I badly tore the ligaments in each ankle, which weakened the outside of my foot and hence the over-pronation. In my case these exercises involve strengthening those muscles again, as well as the muscles on the sole of the foot to tauten them up so they get back the arch over the metatarsals and indeed the arch of the foot. Also hip mobility, turning out from the hip, turning out the knee a bit, then rolling the ankle out a bit while planting the big toe on the floor. This counter-rotation (hence the spiral in teh name of the therapy) brings the leg into alignment, which feels much more stable and "ready for anything". I've only had one session so far but these are exercises I can do sitting at my desk, standing waiting for the kettle to boil etc. It's a case of retraining the brain to consider the new position normal - modifying the proprioception I guess. Once it's dialled in while stationary, the trick is then to maintain the new position while moving - walking, skiing, running, whatever. ANd even after just one session, simply the consciousness of what I'm supposed to be doing seems to be helping - I think and hope I could see significant results fairly soon.

They reckon they can resolve all sorts of foot problems with this method that would otherwise require surgery (e.g. badly misaligned big to etc.

This is what it's all about - only in German I'm afraid:

www.spiraldynamik.com

 

[volklgirl]

By the way, the boots are canted. But get down into a tuck and boot canting just isn't up to the job. It's way down there in the boot, far away from the completely folded up body.

Canted, as in "cuff canted", or as in boot soles ground down?

Most of the time the Q-Angle can be accounted for in the following ways:
1) correctly made and supportive custom foot beds.
2) cant wedges under the boot liner or foot bed.
3) cant wedges under the binding if you're not using a "system" ski & binding.
4) grinding the boot sole

Add cuff alignment and possibly heel lifts (weight lifters who's knees track in on squats use heel lifts), and a good portion of women with Q-Angle issues can be corrected. Those with serious issues need to see an orthopod and orthotics specialist.

ps..for anyone who thinks cuff "canting" really is canting, it's not. It's merely cuff alignment that allows the cuff to follow the natural angle of the shin. Very minor stance adjustments can be made with the cuff but that tends to change the flex characteristics of the boot. Alignment issues should be dealt with beginning at the feet!

 

[sleddog]

To add to what volklgirl said - if one needs canting it shouldn't be done unless the boot has an alignable cuff and skier has custom footbeds to eliminate as much pronation as possible.

 

[liquidfeet]

if you are doing squats train yourself to direct your knees straight ahead over your toes to increase their stability.

Can't be done. It's a bone thing.

 

[liquidfeet]

Canted, as in "cuff canted", or as in boot soles ground down?

Boot soles not ground down. I'm not in race boots. Will they even do this? Little shims have been glued into bottom of boot, left side here, right side there, below the custom footbed, to adjust the left-right angle of the footbed.
Also my skis have system rail-type bindings. Can't mess with them, evidently.
Yep, got the heel lifts too.
He did something with the cuff, but it doesn't seem to be very important. It's what's underfoot that counts.
By the way, I'm a supinator.
So, do knees together during a tuck constitute a dangerous situation?

 

[volklgirl]

Boot soles not ground down. I'm not in race boots. Will they even do this?

Yes, unless the boot has cantable plates (Lange).

So, do knees together during a tuck constitute a dangerous situation?

Most definitely yes....the chance of you catching an edge and crashing hard is highly likely, unless.....

It's possible when they canted you, they adjusted the boots and skis to sit flat in your normal stance (filling in the spaces), rather than adjusting your stance so you're aligned (true canting). If your stance is way, way, way off, sometimes they'll do that instead.

 

[liquidfeet]

It's possible when they canted you, they adjusted the boots and skis to sit flat in your normal stance (filling in the spaces), rather than adjusting your stance so you're aligned (true canting). If your stance is way, way, way off, sometimes they'll do that instead.

I stood on something and bent my knees. He said my feet went one way, and my knees went another, or something ... and that the fix for one problem was exactly the opposite of the fix for the other. I am a supinator, I do remember that. He thought a long time about which side to put the little shims on for my feet. Honestly, I can't remember, and it's such a big deal to take the liners out and get them back in to see which way he decided to go. (The tongues are breaking and I don't want to do this too many times). He also messed with the cuffs. I guess I have complicated feet/legs.

SOOOO, I'll force those knees apart while tucking, and see today if my outside edges catch when I do so. If yes, then ... guess I'll see a bootfitter and spend some money.

 

[volklgirl]

When you said you were a supinator and that you were knock-kneed, I thought that was kinda odd. That is quite the dilemma ;) .

If your boot tongues are breaking, sounds like it's time to get new boots anyway :D !

You do have custom foot beds, right???

 

[BatGirl]

liquidfeet, I had a post on this on another thread about my whole saga in getting my knee angles and overpronation sorted out. I've got an acute Q-angle, such that when I stand normally with my knees together, there's still a gap between my feet. Long story short, after consultations with three different reputable boot fitters, I've had to get custom footbeds made, canted my boot cuffs, AND had 2 degree cant plates put under my bindings. One of my projects this year is get my boots planed.

So don't just settle with forcing your knees apart in the tuck. This is only tiring your leg muscles because you are actively using them to cause this, as well as opening you up to injury as Pequenita said. I could also see where it might cause a problem with your technique. This problem is causing (for me, at least) an inability to get over on an edge (both outside and inside) properly. If you have the same issue, I could see how this could become a problem at higher speeds when you miss or can't engage an edge. In fact, it may even inhibit you from being able to go faster if it prevents you from getting your technique down properly (see the "Pretty vs. fast" thread).

Definitely spend the money on a bootfitter. It made a world of difference for me. Before I had this done, there was one day where I was crying from the pain of the improper fit and the frustration of not being able to get my skis to do what my instructor was telling me to do. Now that it's sorted out, skills are coming MUCH more easily, and my skiing is improving immensely.

 

[liquidfeet]

You do have custom foot beds, right???

Yes. I went the whole nine yards when I had my boots done, and went back, and back, and back until they were as good as I knew how to get them.

Got a gold and a gold+ tonight!!! Getting faster!!! (Oh Fun....)

The advice is so good on this forum. Thanks all.

 

[volklgirl]

Yaayy!! Congrats to you!!!!

 

[ski diva]

Great going, LF! Congratulations!

 

[liquidfeet]

Thank you Thank you Thank you.

 

[ISki]

Way to go, Liquidfeet!