Help Needed: Quads burning - causes?

[CindiSue]

I was piggybacking on another thread but really need my own. I'm hoping for some advice.

Ever since I got new boots 3 years ago I've barely skied because I burn out my quads in a run or too. I thought there was something wrong with me physically, but I've been lifting weights and strengthening my legs and quads for 18 months. They are much stronger but I still blow them out fast skiing

I never was a great skier with great form, but was decent and could ski most of the mountain. Now I can't handle anything beyond super easy because of this quad issue. I just started weekly lessons and the instructor said I never let off (all flex, not relax) and that's why they're burning out. But I am having to do that to avoid picking up too much speed. Unless I simply criss-cross the entire hill all the time like when I was a beginner, do I need to go back to that? Now what I'm doing is constantly turning to scrub speed. I've been wondering what happened, how I got so crappy all of a sudden?

Now it has occurred to me, could it be the boots? I remember having trouble with my previous (first set) of boots until I got a lift put in. That made a world of difference and I felt control and really skied better. But reading here, people are talking about lifts putting you more in the backseat and makes the quads to more work, not less... I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around that, since before it finally allowed me to be forward enough to control the skis.

Should I just keep trying things in my lessons, or could it really be the boots?

Thanks!

 

[Jenny]

Lifts are very personal - they happen to work for me, so I have them. If it helped before, there's no harm in trying them in these boots, just to see if they help again.

I will add that I had a pair of Langes that were awful, awful for me and my quads burned no matter what I did.

 

[Jilly]

Ask your instructor about turn shape. That is the best way to control your speed. If you're always scrubbing speed, then you are not using the shape of the turn to control it. C's not Z's !

 

[CindiSue]

Lifts are very personal - they happen to work for me, so I have them. If it helped before, there's no harm in trying them in these boots, just to see if they help again.

Are you talking about the kind you put inside your boot? I'm getting the feeling that's what people are talking about with lifts, because they can try them and then remove them. What I had was something attached to the outside of my boot on the heel. Do these work the same way? Putting it in the boot would be a great way to try it, but I am concerned putting it in the boot would make my high instep problem even worse.

 

[Christy]

Didn't we talk about this in another thread? Maybe that was someone else. If you were fine with your old boots and have immediate quad burn with your newer boots, it's not you. It's your boots. Too much forward lean in boots is a disaster for a lot of us. I have to have a very upright boot, with no spoiler and generally adjusted to be as upright as possible. I cannot tolerate forward lean. My quads will be burning on my first run. Go to a fitter to see if your boots can be made more upright. They may not be able to be made as upright as possible and you may have to get new boots.

I actually do well with heel lifts. Like Jenny said heel lifts work for some and not for others. When you hear people talk negatively about them it's more in response to the fact that for a while it was thought that all women needed them. And of course there isn't one thing that all women need. They can put some women in the backseat, but they are a godsend for others. It depends in part on how you were built. Never heard of lifts on the outside of your boot. When we talk about heel lifts they are inside under the liner. You can take them in and out and experiment.

A lot of people will still try to talk about your stance and form, and it may be that you have areas to improve there. But when you switch from one piece of equipment to another and there is a drastic, bad change in your skiing, you need to deal with that equipment.

 

[liquidfeet]

....I got new boots 3 years ago I've barely skied because I burn out my quads in a run or too.
....I just started weekly lessons and the instructor said I never let off (all flex, not relax) and that's why they're burning out.
....But I am having to do that to avoid picking up too much speed.

....If you were fine with your old boots and have immediate quad burn with your newer boots, it's not you. It's your boots.

It makes sense that if you are in new boots and now your have burning quads all the time, that it's your boots. But your second statement in red above says that there's a conceptual
misunderstanding that you also need to deal with.

It sounds like you think you need to "never let off the flexing" or you'll go too fast. I interpret that to mean that you are "sitting" low as you ski. This means you are doing the equivalent of wall-sits as you ski, or continuous squats. Have I got that right?

As an instructor I've encountered skiers who believe this. They think that if they allow their bodies to hover over the fronts of their skis, or if they allow their upper bodies to get ahead of their feet in any way, they will go faster and probably fall on their faces. Their experience walking and running on dry land, where the feet stick to the surface beneath them and the shoes match the shape of the feet, tells them that they will safely stay upright and be able to control their speed if they don't allow their bodies to precede their feet when going downhill. This is true, in shoes, on the ground. But it doesn't involves the continual "flexing"/squatting/sitting.

It is definitely not true when sliding downhill.

You will probably need an understanding instructor to work with you to retrain yourself to depend on this new truth about balance and staying upright and safe. But I suspect something about the boots is exaggerating your propensity to stay aft as you ski, and your quads are screaming at you to stop! Get the boots fixed first, then take another lesson to address the probable cause of screaming quads and skiing aft.

 

[CindiSue]

It sounds like you think you need to "never let off the flexing" or you'll go too fast. I interpret that to mean that you are "sitting" low as you ski. This means you are doing the equivalent of wall-sits as you ski, or continuous squats. Have I got that right?

Hi, I wouldn't say I believe that at all, because that's not the way I used to ski. I used to flex and relax on every turn, the up/down motion which is correct. But now I am unable to do that, and find the only way to carve enough to slow down is to be in continuous squat as you are saying. That started at the same time as the new boots. Is it possible I forgot how to ski over a summer, after several years of doing fine? I suppose it is. Until I realized the change lined up with when I got the new boots, I assumed either that was the case or I was having some problem with my muscles. But also, my instructor pointed out I am very rigid and not-relaxed, and it is possible that technique problems started at the same time unrelated to the boots. Although I'm not sure why they would... Is it common for an intermediate skier to suddenly forget everything and have to start over?

 

[liquidfeet]

It is not common for a skier to forget everything. It comes back.

Check the boots out. They are doing something.

Here's an idea. Set one of the old boots next to one of the new boots. Push their heels back against the wall so they are lined up next to each other.

Hold your camera down at the level of the boots and take a photo of them from the side. What you are trying to capture in the photo is the triangular space between the back of each boot and the wall, to see if one of the boots leans forward at a more severe tilt than the other.

Forward lean can have a big effect on your stance. If the forward leans are different, that may be the issue. Post the photo here.

 

[mustski]

Now it has occurred to me, could it be the boots? I remember having trouble with my previous (first set) of boots until I got a lift put in. That made a world of difference and I felt control and really skied better. But reading here, people are talking about lifts putting you more in the backseat and makes the quads to more work, not less... I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around that, since before it finally allowed me to be forward enough to control ....

Thanks!

If you had the same problem before and lifts solved it, then get thee to a bootfitter and try lifts again. There was a problem for a period of years when Jeannie Thornen declared that ALL women benefit from heel lifts. As a result, filters were prescribing them for anyone female. If you don’t need them, they can toss you back but for others, they help us get forward. If you have poor dorsiflexion (ankles) as I do, you may compensate by flexing too much at the knees.

 

[elemmac]

Are you talking about the kind you put inside your boot? I'm getting the feeling that's what people are talking about with lifts, because they can try them and then remove them. What I had was something attached to the outside of my boot on the heel. Do these work the same way? Putting it in the boot would be a great way to try it, but I am concerned putting it in the boot would make my high instep problem even worse.

A lift on the inside of the boot is different than putting a lift on the sole (I'm not sure if there is a different "technical" term for adding the lift to the sole.

Both will change the ramp angle of the boot (the angle created by the height difference between your heel and your forefoot). Adding the lift inside the boot will change the angle without changing the forward lean of the boot. Adding a lift under the sole will change the ramp angle while giving you more forward lean as well. I'm not sure how common it is to add the heel lift to the heel of your boot, I believe this is normally accomplished by adding a shim under your binding.

 

[Jenny]

Are you talking about the kind you put inside your boot? I'm getting the feeling that's what people are talking about with lifts, because they can try them and then remove them. What I had was something attached to the outside of my boot on the heel. Do these work the same way? Putting it in the boot would be a great way to try it, but I am concerned putting it in the boot would make my high instep problem even worse.

Yes, I was talking about the ones inside the boot. I’ve never tried anything else. And it could very well be the boots, too. I just wanted you to know that the lifts DO work for some people, since you mentioned that you had them before. And maybe you needed them in those boots and don't in these. That’s one of the frustrating things about this sport!

But you should listen to people like liquidfeet - she knows a heck of a lot more than I do!

 

[Serafina]

I use lifts, and they absolutely do not put me into the back seat, and if I ski without lifts in my boots, I get quad burn. If you've got a good boot fitter, go with their suggestion over the suggestions of people who aren't looking at your feet and your boots and your stance. If your boots work better for you with lifts, use lifts.

 

[mustski]

A lift on the inside of the boot is different than putting a lift on the sole (I'm not sure if there is a different "technical" term for adding the lift to the sole.

Usually material added to the sole is related to canting. That could definitely throw off your stance if you need your boots canted.

 

[CindiSue]

It is not common for a skier to forget everything. It comes back.

Check the boots out. They are doing something.

Here's an idea. Set one of the old boots next to one of the new boots. Push their heels back against the wall so they are lined up next to each other.

Hold your camera down at the level of the boots and take a photo of them from the side. What you are trying to capture in the photo is the triangular space between the back of each boot and the wall, to see if one of the boots leans forward at a more severe tilt than the other.

Forward lean can have a big effect on your stance. If the forward leans are different, that may be the issue. Post the photo here.

Is this what you mean by the photos? You can't really see one boot behind the other, so I tried one from the top. The red boot with red liner is the new boot, the white boot with black liner is the old boot. It looks like the new boot has more forward lean but not sure if that's enough to make a difference. I also took a photo from the back where there appear to be adjustment screws? Is that what those are?

Now I have taken 4 classes since I wrote this post, and skied 7 times total. I have "re-learned" how to ski at this point and my quads aren't burning anymore. (Well, they did get tired yesterday but I was skiing in a foot of new snow so that is to be expected...) I am staying forward most of the time. What helped me the most was a) remembering to complete my turns, then b) keeping my uphill ski closer to my downhill ski as the turn completes and I go into the new turn, c) getting back into the rhythm of upright position to start the turns, d) almost all my weight on the outside ski, and e) side bend into "c or banana shape" especially on steeper stuff. All these slowed me down, gave me control, allowed me to mostly stay forward, without having to really flex and trash those quads.

But I find it weird that I'm still skiing more slowly and still having a lot more trouble on steep slopes than I did with my old boots. Does it appear to you the boots might have something to do with it, or do you think I could have really just forgotten, and need to keep skiing a lot to get back to where I was?

I will add that although I could ski much steeper stuff before, I never really looked right skiing before, and I got sore a lot in weird places. So is it possible that I just had gotten more functional with a crappy technique, and now I'm starting over with a better technique, so anything I did before isn't relevant now? For example I carved well on really shallow stuff which I don't even ski anymore because we don't have any at my new mountain, but I skidded a lot on steep stuff.

Thanks!

 

[Jilly]

The redster is a tuned down race boot. There must a reason why the shop put you in that one. I haven't gone back to re-read everything. What Salomon is that? I suspect that it is a lot softer than the redster. I can see in the pictures that the forward lean on the redster's is more than the Salomon. When you bought the boots, there should have been a little booklet that came with them and some other parts like allen keys. That book will tell you what those bolts adjust. You don't need any more forward lean, that's for sure.

 

[CindiSue]

They are both jr racing boots. Both boot fitters I went to said they were the only thing that would fit my feet, which are really hard to fit due to being size 8 but super low volume and super high instep. I guess racing boots are designed to be tighter, so they fit my low volume better. The Redster is only a 90 so it's not that stiff. The Solomon is an X3-Jr, also a 90, and has a cant on the bottom of the heel.

I didn't get a booklet and had no idea, so I'll see if I can find one online. It would be interesting if I could just adjust them slightly more upright. I am not really surprised you are saying they have a lot of forward lean because I find it hard just to stand up in them, like standing sideways on the hill.

 

[Jilly]

I'll pop into the Atomic shop at Tremblant tomorrow and ask Alex about the screws. Our local shop didn't have any.

 

[Littlesonique]

Do you have custom insoles?

 

[2ski2moro]

When I got new boots a few years ago, I had tremendous quad burn. Turns out that Salomon flex in their new line was much softer than my old boots. I found a different brand that was much stiffer and my quad burn is gone. (...except for the days when I get in the back seat and can't get forward. Mind games/fear gets the best of me.) A more upright boot seems to work better for me, too.

 

[CindiSue]

Do you have custom insoles?

Yes. The first boot fitter made them. Of course then the second boot fitter said he didn't think they were very good, so who knows.