Help Needed: Quad Burn and Pelvis/Hip position?

[IceCoastPatrol]

Hello all!

I notoriously have issues with quad pain. I definitely try to lean forward from my ankles and feel my shin in the tongue of the boot. I think maybe some of my issues with getting into proper position is around some hip hypermobility. I have an anterior pelvic tilt and some hip instability that I have been working on in PT. I believe this ends up making my quads and calf's do more work and my hamstrings and glutes do very little. It also makes "being stacked" quite challenging an probably messes up my fore-aft balance. I can posteriorly tilt my pelvis and maybe get into a better position - but not for sustained periods. I am still doing core, hamstring, and glute strength training to gain stability there. I tend to have a hard time activating my hamstrings and glutes, since my body is so used to being quad dominant.


So I am curious, has anyone else experienced this and do they have some suggestions? OR maybe I am over thinking it and it a more of a ski technique issue rather than a body/muscle instability issue? I'd really like to improve my ski form, and limit the quad and calf pain.

One thing I did find helpful is getting rid of the spoilers in my boots. I used to not be able to stand-up comfortably in my boots and even had quad pain on the flats/greens. Getting rid of some of the forward lean in my boots definitely helped there a tiny bit.

 

[scandium]

You might be like me in terms of the shin cue - I can push my shin right into my boot but have my weight ENTIRELY in the wrong place especially if I bend my knees and sit over the back of my skis! I am better with foot and whole-body cues (using the "tripod" of the foot, "perching on the edge of a bar stool") and find it more useful to actively think about where my hips and bellybutton are and what they are doing. I think it will likely be both muscular and technique - I have a pretty strong posterior chain but had a lot of quad pain before taking more lessons and realising that "shin to boot" wasn't as useful for me!

 

[Christy]

Have you tried eliminating as much forward lean as possible? More than just removing spoilers? That's what it took for me.

Some of us are built in such a way we have extra challenges in this department. My femurs are long and it makes getting into the proper stance difficult.

 

[Christy]

Upright stance boots for quad burn?

Thanks to this forum I discovered that my insane quad burn since switching out my ski boots is not crazy. So bad I almost cried after one run and I wasn’t able to ski at all during my mammoth vacation (due to shortages no one had any demos or rentals that weren’t too soft ). Does anybody have...

www.theskidiva.com

 

[Christy]

Here's my own story.

Quad fatigue and boots

I wanted to share this experience in the hopes it might help someone with the same problem. I've had horrible quad fatigue and pain for the last two seasons, and no amount of lessons could get me past it. I work out, am active outdoors year round, and yet would watch my Iowa in laws who ski...

www.theskidiva.com

 

[liquidfeet]

I notoriously have issues with quad pain. I definitely try to lean forward from my ankles and feel my shin in the tongue of the boot. ............ OR maybe I am over thinking it and it a more of a ski technique issue rather than a body/muscle instability issue? I'd really like to improve my ski form, and limit the quad and calf pain. .... my body is so used to being quad dominant.

One thing I did find helpful is getting rid of the spoilers in my boots. I used to not be able to stand-up comfortably in my boots and even had quad pain on the flats/greens. Getting rid of some of the forward lean in my boots definitely helped there a tiny bit.

If your quads are hurting despite working in the gym on quad strength, then you are probably doing the equivalent of wall sits when you ski. In other words, you probably are unknowingly skiing in the back seat.

Getting shin-tongue contact is only part of the formula for avoiding back seat skiing. You also need to have your torso (pelvis up to shoulders), in other words your center of mass, in the right place relative to your feet. If you succeed in that, then you will be able to ski "stacked" and not rely on your quads to hold your torso up, as they do when you do wall-sits. When you ski stacked, your quad pain should disappear.

The key to getting that torso properly placed relative to your feet is to raise your pelvis higher. Get taller on your skis. When your ankles are bent forward (dorsiflexed) and your pelvis is high enough, the weight of the torso hovers over the front of the binding and you will be no longer in the back seat.

So, keep those ankles bent forward to maintain shin-tongue contact, and ski with your pelvis high enough that your torso hovers over the front of your binding so your weight is in front of your boot. If you need to flex/extend, do it at the knees and hips, not at the ankles. Doing this keeps the shovels firmly planted on the snow as they should be. The more open your knees and hips, the more forward your weight will be and the more you'll be pressing the shovels down onto the snow. If your heel is well-seated in the boot, that keeps the tail of the ski pressing down onto the snow. You want both in firm contact with the snow so you can bend the ski.

Your calf pain will be coming from either a too-tight power strap which cuts off circulation at the top of the cuff, or from constant contraction of the calf muscle which stresses the muscle beyond its capacity. Contracting the calf muscle opens up the ankle, essentially pointing the toe, which moves the shin back from the tongue and make your lower leg rise 90º up from the ski instead of being tilted forward. Skiing with lower leg not tilted forward automatically positions one's weight back, creating back seat skiing. Try to figure out which of these is happening.

If you can get a friend to video you from the side as you ski down a blue groomer, you can check for lower leg tilt relative to the ski. It should stay tilted forward relative to the ski. That same video will show how low or high you are holding your pelvis. Stop the video, draw a straight line upward from your outside binding toe piece at 90º to the ski, and see how much of your torso is behind that line, and how much is in front of it. More than half of the torso behind it means you are weighting the rear of your ski, and you are in the back seat. Raise up the pelvis and the whole torso will move forward.

How to check for torso position this while skiing? Look down at your outside thigh - is it horizontal relative to the ski, or tilted upward? It needs to be tilted upward, with pelvis above knee.

Pelvic tilt may be playing a small role in your pain, but I suspect inadvertently skiing in the back seat is the major cause.

 

[Jenny]

Have you tried eliminating as much forward lean as possible? More than just removing spoilers? That's what it took for me.

Some of us are built in such a way we have extra challenges in this department. My femurs are long and it makes getting into the proper stance difficult.

This was key for me, too. Now if they hurt I at least know it’s not related to the forward lean of the boot and can work on other issues.

 

[IceCoastPatrol]

Have you tried eliminating as much forward lean as possible? More than just removing spoilers? That's what it took for me.

Some of us are built in such a way we have extra challenges in this department. My femurs are long and it makes getting into the proper stance difficult.

Yes I did also add a little bit of lift under the toes! I have been slowly adding a bit more to try to find the sweet spot of where the boot board would allow my foot to be more neutral, since I think most are angled down about 4 degrees or so.

My femurs are a tad long compared to my tibias.

 

[IceCoastPatrol]

If your quads are hurting despite working in the gym on quad strength, then you are probably doing the equivalent of wall sits when you ski. In other words, you probably are unknowingly skiing in the back seat.

Getting shin-tongue contact is only part of the formula for avoiding back seat skiing. You also need to have your torso (pelvis up to shoulders), in other words your center of mass, in the right place relative to your feet. If you succeed in that, then you will be able to ski "stacked" and not rely on your quads to hold your torso up, as they do when you do wall-sits. When you ski stacked, your quad pain should disappear.

The key to getting that torso properly placed relative to your feet is to raise your pelvis higher. Get taller on your skis. When your ankles are bent forward (dorsiflexed) and your pelvis is high enough, the weight of the torso hovers over the front of the binding and you will be no longer in the back seat.

So, keep those ankles bent forward to maintain shin-tongue contact, and ski with your pelvis high enough that your torso hovers over the front of your binding so your weight is in front of your boot. If you need to flex/extend, do it at the knees and hips, not at the ankles. Doing this keeps the shovels firmly planted on the snow as they should be. The more open your knees and hips, the more forward your weight will be and the more you'll be pressing the shovels down onto the snow. If your heel is well-seated in the boot, that keeps the tail of the ski pressing down onto the snow. You want both in firm contact with the snow so you can bend the ski.

Your calf pain will be coming from either a too-tight power strap which cuts off circulation at the top of the cuff, or from constant contraction of the calf muscle which stresses the muscle beyond its capacity. Contracting the calf muscle opens up the ankle, essentially pointing the toe, which moves the shin back from the tongue and make your lower leg rise 90º up from the ski instead of being tilted forward. Skiing with lower leg not tilted forward automatically positions one's weight back, creating back seat skiing. Try to figure out which of these is happening.

If you can get a friend to video you from the side as you ski down a blue groomer, you can check for lower leg tilt relative to the ski. It should stay tilted forward relative to the ski. That same video will show how low or high you are holding your pelvis. Stop the video, draw a straight line upward from your outside binding toe piece at 90º to the ski, and see how much of your torso is behind that line, and how much is in front of it. More than half of the torso behind it means you are weighting the rear of your ski, and you are in the back seat. Raise up the pelvis and the whole torso will move forward.

How to check for torso position this while skiing? Look down at your outside thigh - is it horizontal relative to the ski, or tilted upward? It needs to be tilted upward, with pelvis above knee.

Pelvic tilt may be playing a small role in your pain, but I suspect inadvertently skiing in the back seat is the major cause.

Yes the pelvis and upper body placement is definitely what is hard for me! I think I need someone to physically put my body in the right position lol - i am so bad at translating what people say to my own body. Keeping my pelvis high is incredibly difficult for me for sustained periods of time. I think I have such poor posture my body reverts to bad habits once I stop hyperfocusing on it. But the way you describe it is helpful!

For calfs - that makes sense! I learned i have stupid calves and they are always on! Even when they are not supposed to, they do these counter-contractions. It is part of the hypermobility, they are trying to stabilize me, even though I am quite stable in ski boots. It's something I am working on, but they don't always listen.

And I agree I'm in the backseat, more so was trying to gather of a pelvic tilt makes it harder to get into the proper position and out of the backseat.

 

[IceCoastPatrol]

Intersting - I also have awful posture (also work on it and part of my hypermobile/instability issues) so perching on the end of a barstool is usually me hunched over. How else could I visualize the hip and belly button position?? Assuming shoulder placement is probably important too.

You might be like me in terms of the shin cue - I can push my shin right into my boot but have my weight ENTIRELY in the wrong place especially if I bend my knees and sit over the back of my skis! I am better with foot and whole-body cues (using the "tripod" of the foot, "perching on the edge of a bar stool") and find it more useful to actively think about where my hips and bellybutton are and what they are doing. I think it will likely be both muscular and technique - I have a pretty strong posterior chain but had a lot of quad pain before taking more lessons and realising that "shin to boot" wasn't as useful for me!

 

[IceCoastPatrol]

This was key for me, too. Now if they hurt I at least know it’s not related to the forward lean of the boot and can work on other issues.

I think this is a part of it, as I do now have relief on the flats after removing my spoilers.

One boot fitter poot heal wedges in my boots and it was AWFUL. Ripped those things out instantly. I was constantly being flung into the backseat.

However, I do acknowledge I am probably not in the best positioned either. I think it is hard for me to get the pelvis and upper body properly positioned.

 

[Jilly]

If you're thinking of the bar stool....remember it's about the hip into the hill. aka Angulation. So keep your upper body straighter. Don't hunch the shoulders over or break at the waist.

I don't have any drawings, but I bet @liquidfeet does have some stick drawings of this.

 

[liquidfeet]

Jilly, I can't find anything relevant. Got stuff here somewhere but it's successfully hiding inside my computer.

 

[liquidfeet]

....
For calfs - that makes sense! I learned i have stupid calves and they are always on! Even when they are not supposed to, they do these counter-contractions. It is part of the hypermobility, they are trying to stabilize me, even though I am quite stable in ski boots. It's something I am working on, but they don't always listen.
....

If your calf muscles are contracting and relaxing and contracting and relaxing as you ski, that's a problem. The gastrocnemius is your calf muscle. It opens up the ankle and points the toes. When it does this as you are skiing, it moves brings the lower leg vertical, eliminating the forward tilt of the shin and lessening the contact between tongue and shin. The calf muscle should not be doing this.

The opposing muscle on the front of your lower leg is the anterior tibialis. This muscle, when contracted, closes up the ankle - bends it forward- dorsiflexes the ankle. THIS is the muscle you need to train to hold your ankle in its bent-forward position as you ski. You can, and should, train your tibialis anterior to contract and hold its contraction as you ski. Your gastrocnemius is out of control and needs to be disciplined. The anterior tib is the muscle to do this. It can be trained to hold the ankle in dorsiflexion but this takes determination and persistence over time.

Note: Your pelvic tilt is not necessarily a major player in holding onto dorsiflexion... but everyone is different and any certainty about this in my posts may be overstated.

Dorsiflexion:


Below shows what dorsiflexion looks like when standing.
Ankle dorsiflexion tilts the lower leg forward.
It does this without any help from the knee.
In other words, one doesn't have to bend the knee to dorsiflex the ankle.


Contract the tibialis anterior to dorsiflex the ankle.
Ski instructors will often say lift your toes, or lift the front of your foot,
in order to get skiers to dorsiflex.

This skier is skiing with ankles held in dorsiflexion due to
tibialis anterior contraction.

This skier has his gastrocnemius (calf muscle) contracted,
which is pulling the lower leg to vertical.
This skier is very back seat.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Just a few ideas that come to mind.

Do you get the burn just standing around in your boots?

How stiff are you boots? This would be the flex. Even if it is not a great gauge it is a generally informative piece of info.

As mentioned in the thread the amount of lean of the boot matters too.

I am super flexible and still use a tiny bit of heel rise as I am able to easily bring my knee ahead of my toes with forward flexion which is exhausting on the legs.

Not all quad burn is a result of improper positioning of our bodies. Having rented boots I can attest to that. The strength required to stay balanced if boots are constantly putting us out of balance is surprisingly intense and pain inducing.

Best of luck!

 

[tahoeaussie]

Hello all!

I notoriously have issues with quad pain. I definitely try to lean forward from my ankles and feel my shin in the tongue of the boot. I think maybe some of my issues with getting into proper position is around some hip hypermobility. I have an anterior pelvic tilt and some hip instability that I have been working on in PT. I believe this ends up making my quads and calf's do more work and my hamstrings and glutes do very little. It also makes "being stacked" quite challenging an probably messes up my fore-aft balance. I can posteriorly tilt my pelvis and maybe get into a better position - but not for sustained periods. I am still doing core, hamstring, and glute strength training to gain stability there. I tend to have a hard time activating my hamstrings and glutes, since my body is so used to being quad dominant.


So I am curious, has anyone else experienced this and do they have some suggestions? OR maybe I am over thinking it and it a more of a ski technique issue rather than a body/muscle instability issue? I'd really like to improve my ski form, and limit the quad and calf pain.

One thing I did find helpful is getting rid of the spoilers in my boots. I used to not be able to stand-up comfortably in my boots and even had quad pain on the flats/greens. Getting rid of some of the forward lean in my boots definitely helped there a tiny bit.

Do you have custom boots and insoles?

there’s many possibilities.
do you have good rotation of the femurs at the hip or are you turning with the hip mostly ( which would put you in the backseat and give you quad pain)

best is to get a video and post it here or get a lesson, make sure to ask for an experienced and at least level 2 instructor.

where do you ski at mostly?

 

[Jenny]

I think this is a part of it, as I do now have relief on the flats after removing my spoilers.

One boot fitter poot heal wedges in my boots and it was AWFUL. Ripped those things out instantly. I was constantly being flung into the backseat.

However, I do acknowledge I am probably not in the best positioned either. I think it is hard for me to get the pelvis and upper body properly positioned.

See, I DO need the heel lifts, but I am the opposite of hypermobile, so that makes sense.

 

[IceCoastPatrol]

Just a few ideas that come to mind.

Do you get the burn just standing around in your boots?

How stiff are you boots? This would be the flex. Even if it is not a great gauge it is a generally informative piece of info.

As mentioned in the thread the amount of lean of the boot matters too.

I am super flexible and still use a tiny bit of heel rise as I am able to easily bring my knee ahead of my toes with forward flexion which is exhausting on the legs.

Not all quad burn is a result of improper positioning of our bodies. Having rented boots I can attest to that. The strength required to stay balanced if boots are constantly putting us out of balance is surprisingly intense and pain inducing.

Best of luck!

For sure, I went from 85 flex to 105 amd that helped a lot.

I'm not really all that flexible, but some my joints are hypermobile in some areas, so for example, my actually pelvis bone moves in a weird way because the ligaments connecting them are "loose." So it messes up my entire stance, and makes it harder to stabilize.

If you already knew what hypermobile joints were - didn't mean to over explain!

I do notice when I get my pelvis in the right position, I feel more sensation in my anterior tib rather than my calf - but maintaining that position is very hard for me.

 

[tahoeaussie]

See, I DO need the heel lifts, but I am the opposite of hypermobile, so that makes sense.

Heel lifts depend on how your boot is constructed and if your ankle is mostly open (not flexed). If it’s often too closed, then heel drop.

womens boots and our bodies are so variable and it’s often a challenge

 

[diymom]

Contract the tibialis anterior to dorsiflex the ankle.

I've been getting PT things for tibialis raises in my feeds, and have started doing them for my knees. Should this also help with positioning?