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Pulling inside ski back... something is wrong
- Thread starter tinymoose
- Start date
Skisailor
Angel Diva
Bingo on the Mikaela Shiffrin pics.
Despite the fact that the pictures are not always from the perfect angle for viewing tip lead, it's clear that her uphill boot is in front of her downhill boot in parts of the turn. So yes! She does exhibit tip lead!!.
And yes, your observations are excellent. It seems her ski tips are often even when she is in the fall line. Then she allows the appropriate amount of tip lead to develop in the bottom part of the turn when she is rounding the gate.
Despite the fact that the pictures are not always from the perfect angle for viewing tip lead, it's clear that her uphill boot is in front of her downhill boot in parts of the turn. So yes! She does exhibit tip lead!!.
And yes, your observations are excellent. It seems her ski tips are often even when she is in the fall line. Then she allows the appropriate amount of tip lead to develop in the bottom part of the turn when she is rounding the gate.
Skisailor
Angel Diva
I don't always agree 100% with the Josh Foster stuff, but this video has some pretty good visuals showing appropriate tip lead vs. excessive tip lead. Keep in mind that his "appropriate" tip lead is appropriate for the medium radius turns that he makes in the video. But his tip lead would increase in shorter radius turns and decrease in longer radius turns.
liquidfeet
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Pulling the inside foot back is not just a solution to a problem.
--It helps solve being backseat at the start of a new turn from having too much tip lead at the end of the old turn.
--It's also a way to use the inside ski's shovel to strengthen and tighten the turn. Pulling it back presses the big toe edge of the shovel into the snow without you having to move your body over it, which is very good.
--Pulling that inside foot back is also, when used with flat skis, a way to initiate a turn. For instance, it works with pivot slips and flat 360 spins. It also works to get you off the lift with a non-wedge turn, so your tails won't trip up your chair buddies.
I disagree strongly with Skisailer about new movements needing to feel right or be abandoned under suspicion that they aren't a good idea. Whenever one tries a new movement pattern, before it gets integrated into everything else one is doing, it feels awkward. One's balance goes to pot because what used to work has been replaced with something new and unfamiliar. It takes a while to get the new movement integrated with the rest of one's body movements. It is quite rare (rare, not impossible mind you) to try a new movement and have it immediately produce astounding results that feel good.
I agree with Skisailer that maintaining tension between the two feet by "holding" the inside foot back is good. But really, "pulling" it back manually might need to happen if it keeps wanting to slide forward.
Also, think about this. When the right foot is the outside foot you won't be"holding" it back with that "wall" stopping it. The wall isn't there for the outside foot, should you pull or hold it back. Try it; no wall. But back to my point.... As a new turn starts, that right foot is going to become the inside foot. You need to do something different with it now; you need to "hold" or "pull" it back against that wall. Enacting this movement, since you weren't doing it just a second ago, feels like "pulling" it back.
For that reason I stand by the mental concept of "pulling" it back.
--It helps solve being backseat at the start of a new turn from having too much tip lead at the end of the old turn.
--It's also a way to use the inside ski's shovel to strengthen and tighten the turn. Pulling it back presses the big toe edge of the shovel into the snow without you having to move your body over it, which is very good.
--Pulling that inside foot back is also, when used with flat skis, a way to initiate a turn. For instance, it works with pivot slips and flat 360 spins. It also works to get you off the lift with a non-wedge turn, so your tails won't trip up your chair buddies.
I disagree strongly with Skisailer about new movements needing to feel right or be abandoned under suspicion that they aren't a good idea. Whenever one tries a new movement pattern, before it gets integrated into everything else one is doing, it feels awkward. One's balance goes to pot because what used to work has been replaced with something new and unfamiliar. It takes a while to get the new movement integrated with the rest of one's body movements. It is quite rare (rare, not impossible mind you) to try a new movement and have it immediately produce astounding results that feel good.
I agree with Skisailer that maintaining tension between the two feet by "holding" the inside foot back is good. But really, "pulling" it back manually might need to happen if it keeps wanting to slide forward.
Also, think about this. When the right foot is the outside foot you won't be"holding" it back with that "wall" stopping it. The wall isn't there for the outside foot, should you pull or hold it back. Try it; no wall. But back to my point.... As a new turn starts, that right foot is going to become the inside foot. You need to do something different with it now; you need to "hold" or "pull" it back against that wall. Enacting this movement, since you weren't doing it just a second ago, feels like "pulling" it back.
For that reason I stand by the mental concept of "pulling" it back.
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liquidfeet
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
When I first stumbled upon the inside foot pull-back's "wall" of resistance, I was lucky enough to be skiing with a pro, a seasoned bump skier, ski school director, and two-time PSIA National Team member. That's all one person. I asked him about the "wall," can't remember what I called it but I did describe the two magnets being pressed together and refusing to go. He said yep, that's it.
I haven't doubted the validity of doing this, not even once, since then.
I haven't doubted the validity of doing this, not even once, since then.
Skisailor
Angel Diva
Just a last thought for Tinymoose:
The most important part of the Josh Foster video IMHO is the little section where he is out of skis - boots only.
Tip lead is simply a natural consequence of turning our legs - turning the femurs in the hip socket. When you are figuring out how much tip lead is "appropriate" for a given turn, I hope you can visualize that little demonstration Josh Foster does in his boots.
Whenever you are in a position where it is necessary to actually pull your uphill foot/ski back to achieve appropriate tip lead, something has already gone wrong higher up in the turn. To know what that might be, we probably need to see some video.
I think this is part of what you were wondering about in your original post - what the underlying issue might be that pulling your foot back is supposed to correct.
The most important part of the Josh Foster video IMHO is the little section where he is out of skis - boots only.
Tip lead is simply a natural consequence of turning our legs - turning the femurs in the hip socket. When you are figuring out how much tip lead is "appropriate" for a given turn, I hope you can visualize that little demonstration Josh Foster does in his boots.
Whenever you are in a position where it is necessary to actually pull your uphill foot/ski back to achieve appropriate tip lead, something has already gone wrong higher up in the turn. To know what that might be, we probably need to see some video.
I think this is part of what you were wondering about in your original post - what the underlying issue might be that pulling your foot back is supposed to correct.
Gloria
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
This. To me tip lead comes from a progression of other technical aspects coming together and is more of a natural denominator that falls into place rather than is taught directly. I feel it’s more of a transition that happens when angulation, inside knee flexion and timing are all on point. It’s more fluid and rhythmic than forced. There are definately a couple drills that can help achieve it though.
tinymoose
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
This is correct! It's something he had me working on, as well as countering less... squaring up more.
snoWYmonkey
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Tiny Moose,
I am curious if your coach wants your inside leg pulled in all your turns, or if there is a different reason for the suggestion. The only reason I ask is that there will be tip lead in super short radius turns when they are done correctly or most efficiently. These PSIA demo videos show a lot of it in pivot slips, which is the shortest radius possible. Less or almost no tip lead is visible in Super G and DH race turns, where skier is indeed more square over skis. Meaning, less upper lower body separation, but as a result of a very different radius, and less direction change.
I wonder if what the coach is seeing is a lack of pressure on the inside ski? Or is there aft pressure overall? Or are you leaning to far to the inside on the second half when you should be moving towards the new turn? It is so hard to know.
The suitcase thing I do not understand. Unless the idea is that there is a suitcase on the valley side and you need to bend knees and body to be able to reach it down there?
Pulling inside leg back has never worked for me either. Nor does long leg short leg, even though both concepts make visual sense to me. My point being that some movements when we try them don't accomplish the goal that we visually understand needs to happen, and only end up making us move in very strange ways that make no sense.
How do railroad track turns, aka perfect carved turns where you leave no skid mark at all work out for you? Do you play around with angulation from the knees versus the hips some in your training?
Personally, when a suggestion does not work for me, I put it on the back burner...sometimes for years. If I try it again, and it still holds no value, I leave it be, and look for another approach to correcting the same issue.
Bonne chance, and keep having fun skiing!
I am curious if your coach wants your inside leg pulled in all your turns, or if there is a different reason for the suggestion. The only reason I ask is that there will be tip lead in super short radius turns when they are done correctly or most efficiently. These PSIA demo videos show a lot of it in pivot slips, which is the shortest radius possible. Less or almost no tip lead is visible in Super G and DH race turns, where skier is indeed more square over skis. Meaning, less upper lower body separation, but as a result of a very different radius, and less direction change.
I wonder if what the coach is seeing is a lack of pressure on the inside ski? Or is there aft pressure overall? Or are you leaning to far to the inside on the second half when you should be moving towards the new turn? It is so hard to know.
The suitcase thing I do not understand. Unless the idea is that there is a suitcase on the valley side and you need to bend knees and body to be able to reach it down there?
Pulling inside leg back has never worked for me either. Nor does long leg short leg, even though both concepts make visual sense to me. My point being that some movements when we try them don't accomplish the goal that we visually understand needs to happen, and only end up making us move in very strange ways that make no sense.
How do railroad track turns, aka perfect carved turns where you leave no skid mark at all work out for you? Do you play around with angulation from the knees versus the hips some in your training?
Personally, when a suggestion does not work for me, I put it on the back burner...sometimes for years. If I try it again, and it still holds no value, I leave it be, and look for another approach to correcting the same issue.
Bonne chance, and keep having fun skiing!
marzNC
Angel Diva
In the second video in Post #30, there is a subtitle that says "pivot point is under the center of the foot." That reminds me of the pivot slips @snoWYmonkey had me and my ski buddies, Bill, and Jason do at JH a few years ago. We were on a long, relatively steep, empty groomer because we did an early start semi-private lesson (4 hours) with her. Might have been the first drill after some warm up turns.
First she talked about pivot slips very briefly, then she demonstrated. I went first since I'd done them before. Not necessarily the best, but I'd at least had experience trying. Jason went next. He'd never seen or done pivot slips. Then it was Bill's turn. He pivoted easily, then threw in a 360 turn, stopping right next to her. We repeated the drill. For Bill, she drew a line down the fall line with her pole. Then asked him to do pivot slips while keeping his boots over that line. That took a bit more concentration on his part.
Pivot slips were part of the Diva NASTC clinic I did in 2010, which was the first lessons I had with an instructor who was PSIA Level 3 and had 20+ years of experience teaching. Also part of my Taos Ski Week (women only) in Feb 2018. Both groups were advanced skiers. Most of the women had in those lessons been skiing challenging terrain (bumps, trees, chutes) for decades.
First she talked about pivot slips very briefly, then she demonstrated. I went first since I'd done them before. Not necessarily the best, but I'd at least had experience trying. Jason went next. He'd never seen or done pivot slips. Then it was Bill's turn. He pivoted easily, then threw in a 360 turn, stopping right next to her. We repeated the drill. For Bill, she drew a line down the fall line with her pole. Then asked him to do pivot slips while keeping his boots over that line. That took a bit more concentration on his part.
Pivot slips were part of the Diva NASTC clinic I did in 2010, which was the first lessons I had with an instructor who was PSIA Level 3 and had 20+ years of experience teaching. Also part of my Taos Ski Week (women only) in Feb 2018. Both groups were advanced skiers. Most of the women had in those lessons been skiing challenging terrain (bumps, trees, chutes) for decades.
liquidfeet
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Pivot slips - done right - are difficult. Draw a line in the snow straight down the fall line, do pivot slips down that line, neither foot can cross the line. One foot stays on the right side of it, the other stays on the left side of it. Tip lead is a natural result of this rule. Tip lead is quite large in pivot slips.
volklgirl
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Rather tha pulling the inside foot back, I think about using a telemark stance for each turn. This requires bending both knees quite a bit and pulling the inside foot back and outside foot forward while pressuring both skis, but it happens during a single visualization of "telemark turn". When I do this correctly, I can really feel the engagement of the inside ski and the power in the turn.
liquidfeet
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
That move is called "force-couple" in another world. Or "tank turn." And yes, "tele turn."
Moving the two bases of support in different directions in this way, one forward and the other backwards, is what enables tanks to make a 360º turn on a dime. Same thing for snowcats.
There was an instructor who works at Aspen talking about this a lot on the PSIA instructor forum. He told great stories of teaching beginner and lower intermediate adults to control their turns with this move, and encouraged other instructors to give it a try. What he said was unfamiliar to most of the instructors posting on the forum. He got so much flak and ridicule that he stopped posting. Such a shame. People would not go out and try it just to see how effective the movement was.
How came people have such closed minds?
So if SkiDiva members reading here go out and try this, find it helpful, and start talking about it to instructors, you might just hit some resistance. So try it, but be careful when people who should know better (instructors) tell you you're imagining things.
@volklgirl, in your circles of coaching and instructing, did anyone talk about it? Or did you stumble upon it on your own?
Moving the two bases of support in different directions in this way, one forward and the other backwards, is what enables tanks to make a 360º turn on a dime. Same thing for snowcats.
There was an instructor who works at Aspen talking about this a lot on the PSIA instructor forum. He told great stories of teaching beginner and lower intermediate adults to control their turns with this move, and encouraged other instructors to give it a try. What he said was unfamiliar to most of the instructors posting on the forum. He got so much flak and ridicule that he stopped posting. Such a shame. People would not go out and try it just to see how effective the movement was.
How came people have such closed minds?
So if SkiDiva members reading here go out and try this, find it helpful, and start talking about it to instructors, you might just hit some resistance. So try it, but be careful when people who should know better (instructors) tell you you're imagining things.
@volklgirl, in your circles of coaching and instructing, did anyone talk about it? Or did you stumble upon it on your own?
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tinymoose
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Ack! Just saw this post. Ski season is over here now so this will all have to wait for another year, but the suitcase drill was to improve my angulation. It was the first thing he had me work on when I showed up to race clinic the first year. The idea was to imagine a suitcase on the outside of my downhill boot and to reach for it. Other drills such as dragging polls hadn't clicked for me as far as me understanding how to angulate.
But yes, the tip lead is an issue in all my turns, even longer radius turns. He told me I needed to square up more and counter less as well.
volklgirl
Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@liquidfeet - we actually did the telemark turn in an instructors clinic years and years ago. This, "skiing in a box", and the Schlopy drill were the drills that really, really clicked with me. I still do them and the sideslip drills early every season, and anytime my skiing feels "off".
