Pulling inside ski back... something is wrong

[tinymoose]

So one of the things our race coach had me working on this year was pulling my inside ski back b/c I'm shuttling my inside ski forward. Along these lines, he's also trying to get me to square up with my skis more (less counter). The thing is, I can pull the inside ski back BUT... I don't feel like I'm accomplishing anything by doing so. I also feel like I can only pull it back so far before I hit a wall of sorts. Is it b/c by pulling the inside ski back he's trying to get me to move my hips in a certain way and I'm pulling the ski back but not moving my hips so I can only pull it back so far? Thoughts? I'm sure I can get some video this weekend if I need to. I just feel like I'm missing something...maybe the entire point of this movement/drill.

 

[Skier31]

If your inside ski is too far forward, your ankle opens which inhibits your ability to tip your legs.

 

[contesstant]

Add in shortening that leg??

 

[echo_VT]

your hips should be forward, but more important the feet should be together. there's a school of thinking in that skiing is all in your feet. my instructor likes to say ten toes across. if your inside leg / uphill ski is forward and ahead of you, you can't drive the hips forward and the feet are not together to tip the skis down the fall line together as @Skier31 says.

sometimes while skiing your feet do not stay together at all times (this is fine and happens to many of us), which is why pulling the ski under you is such an important thing to master - and to pull the ski back *quickly* - that is, you want to pull it back into position ASAP. we often spoke about another way to correct is to move your body forward but you're much more likely to come out of alignment by moving your entire body - so don't do it b/c it's more likely to mess you up than help.

hope that helps...!

 

[marzNC]

square up with my skis

the feet should be together

Are you two talking about tip lead?

Fair to say that "pull back the inside ski" is something I've heard from more than one instructor in the last 5-6 years. For me, it was directly related to the reason my right and left turns were significantly different. There are other approaches to solving the problem though. Can't explain it, but what the Examiner on staff at Massanutten suggested during a semi-private lesson in Jan that had nothing to do with feet position worked a lot better. During that lesson, we did 3-4 runs on a green working on a few fundamentals. At some point I was finally able to do what he asked, and could feel the difference in my glutes on the side that wasn't usually doing things correctly. Once I could feel the proper movement, then I could actually do it on a blue half the time. Had a chance to practice on groomers at small mountains before heading out west in Feb. Now I can tell when I'm doing it wrong on steep terrain and fix it immediately with a little thought.

When I went back and told the Examiner the results a couple weeks after the lesson, he smiled and said he knew he was suggesting something different to address something I'd been working on for a while with my regular L3 instructor.

 

[echo_VT]

i don't know what tip lead is.

i do know that turns can't be executed well if one ski is in front of the skier - and i understand the thought behind pulling the inside ski back when it gets ahead of you. the idea is to keep both feet directly underneath you at all times, and to really stand over the feet (have your center of mass over the feet), which is especially needed in powder.

 

[marzNC]

i don't know what tip lead is.

Then what do you mean by "feet together"?

What I mean is the distance between the tips of the skis shortly before a turn. Can also be thought of as how split ski boots are at that point. When traversing (not trying to turn), the tips are more or less together (front to back) and the same is true for the boots. There was a time when I was making some turns with one boot almost completely in front of the other. That's way too much "tip lead."

One tricky thing to fixing the issue is that if you are looking at your tips to check tip lead, that's not good.

i do know that turns can't be executed well if one ski is in front of the skier - and i understand the thought behind pulling the inside ski back when it gets ahead of you. the idea is to keep both feet directly underneath you at all times, and to really stand over the feet (have your center of mass over the feet), which is especially needed in powder.

That description matches what I've heard an instructors say. It's really important all the time, not just for powder skiing. But it's easier to get away with less than optimal technique on groomers, or slopes that aren't as steep, or ungroomed snow that's not that deep. Practice on groomers does make a difference eventually. Even short Mid-A blue groomers that take <4 minutes to finish. Takes a lot less effort to link a bunch of turns with good rhythm when finally starting to get better technique ingrained so that no thought is needed. At least on less challenging terrain. Making it happen on steeps out west or in powder >6 inches takes mileage in that sort of situation, although practice on groomers helps eventually.

 

[echo_VT]

then yes i was talking about tip lead. when i say feet together - i don't necessarily mean they are close together, just that if you lay your pole across your feet, there are 10 toes across, not 5 under you and 5 elsewhere (behind you or in front of you). where the skis are is just a function of what is happening with your feet, hence the emphasis on the feet.

and yes i agree that it is important to keep both feet underneath you at all times, not just for powder skiing. in powder skiing, not doing so will cause failure. like big time failure - whereas on groomers, it wouldn't. and i agree with you that practicing it on groomers does make a difference eventually. spring skiing is great practice for it as well!

 

[tinymoose]

That's the issue though... I understand I need to pull it back.... but when I pull it back it feels as if I'm hitting a wall of sorts, as in I can only pull it back so far physically, which is why I was wondering if something is still off with my hips that is causing this sensation. As in maybe I'm still too countered and that's making it more difficult to pull that ski back? I can pull the ski back to the point he's somewhat pleased, but it doesn't feel better. If anything, it just feels very awkward and unnatural and I don't feel like I'm getting any extra edge grip b/c of it.

@marzNC yes, my inside ski leads significantly ahead of my outside ski on turns. Sometimes I get some diverging ski action going on too, which is a whole other issue. My race coach said these issues are more common in women from his coaching experience, interestingly enough.

I feel like there's a point I'm missing or I'm not understanding some piece of this that it's not clicking for me mentally. Like angulation... until he told me to pick up a suitcase by my boot, I didn't understand that movement either.

 

[echo_VT]

in my ski group there were quite a few people with this problem (inside ski ahead), including men. so i don't think it's an uncommon thing.

i don't know, but yes if you put up a video of yourself maybe divas here could tell you what they see?

what @contessant said makes sense as well - the inside leg will be shorter simply b/c it is uphill of the downhill ski. working on shortening the short leg seems like another good drill if this one isn't working. it sounds like you want to keep the legs long so the inside leg just goes forward to stay long. try the shortening of the inside leg on a green / blue before trying it on a black i would say? we did this drill a lot last year and i think it's part of the reason it's not a big problem for me, it only occasionally happens if i get off balance for whatever reason - then i pull the inside ski behind me. it's mainly a last resort thing, not something that is part of the turn.

 

[marzNC]

That's the issue though... I understand I need to pull it back.... but when I pull it back it feels as if I'm hitting a wall of sorts, as in I can only pull it back so far physically, which is why I was wondering if something is still off with my hips that is causing this sensation. As in maybe I'm still too countered and that's making it more difficult to pull that ski back? I can pull the ski back to the point he's somewhat pleased, but it doesn't feel better. If anything, it just feels very awkward and unnatural and I don't feel like I'm getting any extra edge grip b/c of it.

Remember, I'm not an instructor. So can only ask questions and share my experience. It's only in the last year or two that I can articulate any of what I've been working on with instructors.

When you sideslip, what does your tip lead look like? Do you naturally have more tip lead on one side vs another?

This season was the first time I did side slipping "chasing my shadow" when the sun was in the right position. In Taos, the instructor made it clear how to look for the shadows of hands/arms when doing the drill. Turns out to be really, really helpful. Another case of when a different approach to a drill made a big difference for me to understand easily how to do it correctly. I've known how to side slip since middle school. It's a natural survival skill for me. But I was still missing some of the elements.

Any change to what you've been doing is going to feel completely off for quite a while. Have read recently that it can require three times more repetition to undo a bad habit than to ingrain the more optimal movement for someone who hasn't skied before. Especially hard to get a new habit ingrained enough to work on more challenging terrain. Took me 2-3 seasons to learn how to do RR tracks. Even now, 3 years later, I have to concentrate to avoid "park and ride" during RR tracks. I figured out eventually that "park and ride" was how I skied pretty much all the time when I was an intermediate staying on groomers (ages 25-50).

 

[tinymoose]

Remember, I'm not an instructor. So can only ask questions and share my experience. It's only in the last year or two that I can articulate any of what I've been working on with instructors.

When you sideslip, what does your tip lead look like? Do you naturally have more tip lead on one side vs another?

I don't think I have tip lead when I side slip? But I'll try to pay attention this weekend.

 

[marzNC]

I don't think I have tip lead when I side slip? But I'll try to pay attention this weekend.

You must have a little. Try creating excess tip lead when side slipping and see what that feels like. Then pay attention to your hips when you pull the inside ski back. Also pay attention to your shoulders in relation to your ski tips and hips.

Have you been introduced to the idea of using a pole to see the line between ski tips, then compare to hips, and finally shoulders?

Are you going to Montage? Looks like they are getting plenty of snow out of this storm.

 

[liquidfeet]

My responses are in red below.

tinymoose said:
"That's the issue though... I understand I need to pull it back.... but when I pull it back it feels as if I'm hitting a wall of sorts, as in I can only pull it back so far physically, which is why I was wondering if something is still off with my hips that is causing this sensation. The feeling of hitting a "wall" is natural. It's supposed to be there. You're good. The tension you feel between the two feet, which will refuse to line up, has to do with the boots restricting your ankles. That tension is good. As in maybe I'm still too countered and that's making it more difficult to pull that ski back? It's good that you can pull that foot back without losing your counter; that means you are doing it right. Some people rotate their hips, pulling the hip above the foot back, both of them together. It sounds like you are NOT doing that - good! I can pull the ski back to the point he's somewhat pleased, but it doesn't feel better. If anything, it just feels very awkward and unnatural and I don't feel like I'm getting any extra edge grip b/c of it."
The extra edge grip on that inside ski's shovel is "extra credit." That's not the major reason it's good to pull the inside foot back. See below....

tinymoose also said:
"I don't think I have tip lead when I side slip? But I'll try to pay attention this weekend." If you don't have any tip lead when you are sideslipping, you probably are facing the side of the trail with your hips and shoulders. If you turn hips/shoulders to face somewhat downhill as you sideslip straight down the hill, you'll naturally get some tip lead. That's fine. Go ahead and learn to face somewhat downhill as you sideslip, with some tip lead. It's important to be able to do that.

The reason instructors try to get skiers to reduce tip lead is straight-forward. When you finish a turn, that old inside foot/uphill foot is going to become your new outside foot. If it's waay out in front of you at the end of the old turn, you'll start the next turn with your weight behind it, aft. Which is not good.

 

[tinymoose]

My responses are in red below.

tinymoose said:
"That's the issue though... I understand I need to pull it back.... but when I pull it back it feels as if I'm hitting a wall of sorts, as in I can only pull it back so far physically, which is why I was wondering if something is still off with my hips that is causing this sensation. The feeling of hitting a "wall" is natural. It's supposed to be there. You're good. The tension you feel between the two feet, which will refuse to line up, has to do with the boots restricting your ankles. That tension is good. As in maybe I'm still too countered and that's making it more difficult to pull that ski back? It's good that you can pull that foot back without losing your counter; that means you are doing it right. Some people rotate their hips, pulling the hip above the foot back, both of them together. It sounds like you are NOT doing that - good! I can pull the ski back to the point he's somewhat pleased, but it doesn't feel better. If anything, it just feels very awkward and unnatural and I don't feel like I'm getting any extra edge grip b/c of it."
The extra edge grip on that inside ski's shovel is "extra credit." That's not the major reason it's good to pull the inside foot back. See below....

tinymoose also said:
"I don't think I have tip lead when I side slip? But I'll try to pay attention this weekend." If you don't have any tip lead when you are sideslipping, you probably are facing the side of the trail with your hips and shoulders. If you turn hips/shoulders to face somewhat downhill as you sideslip straight down the hill, you'll naturally get some tip lead. That's fine. Go ahead and learn to face somewhat downhill as you sideslip, with some tip lead. It's important to be able to do that.

The reason instructors try to get skiers to reduce tip lead is straight-forward. When you finish a turn, that old inside foot/uphill foot is going to become your new outside foot. If it's waay out in front of you at the end of the old turn, you'll start the next turn with your weight behind it, aft. Which is not good.

Thanks! This is really helpful.

 

[Skisailor]

Google "Mikaela Shiffrin skiing images" and see if/when during a turn she develops tip lead.

 

[liquidfeet]

One more thing about pulling that inside foot back.

]....I understand I need to pull it back.... but when I pull it back it feels as if I'm hitting a wall of sorts, as in I can only pull it back so far physically, which is why I was wondering if something is still off with my hips that is causing this sensation. As in maybe I'm still too countered and that's making it more difficult to pull that ski back? ....

The resistance, the "wall," that @tinymoose mentions above, feels similar to when you try to push two magnets together with the wrong ends facing each other. When you do that with the magnets, there's an invisible force in between the two magnets keeping them from coming together. It's the same feeling with the two feet, with the outside foot back and the inside foot forward. When one pulls the inside back, it hits that invisible force which won't let it come in side-by-side with the outside foot. Worth repeating: holding onto the counter is good.

"Shuffling" on beginner terrain is different.

 

[tinymoose]

Google "Mikaela Shiffrin skiing images" and see if/when during a turn she develops tip lead.

What am I looking for? Like I'm 5... lol.

Some photos look like she has tip lead, some not... but some may just be the angle the photo was taken from??

If I had to make a guess... I'd say the tip lead generally looks more exaggerated towards the bottom of the turns? Less so at the beginning, but I think she doesn't have much of one... especially at the beginning/midpoint in the turn?

 

[tinymoose]

I am glad to know that feeling of only being able to pull it back so far is natural. I thought, because it felt so awkward, I was surely doing something wrong. So I'll just keep doing that until it feels more natural/becomes muscle memory.

 

[Skisailor]

Hi Tinymoose!

My two cents.

If it feels awkward and unnatural, it's probably not effective skiing. I'm always concerned about the common "pull the foot back" advice because I think it's trying to address a symptom without fixing the underlying problem.

As you suspected, there is an underlying issue - probably related to the amount of counter you are using in your turns. But be wary of the one size fits all prescriptions - that we should always have our feet even or our hips square to the skis, etc. The amount of counter you need in any turn will vary based on the turn radius, the degree of steepness of the terrain and the amount of angulation you need to ensure lateral balance.

Some tip lead is absolutely appropriate and natural - especially as turn radius decreases. The problem is excessive tip lead - indicating too much counter for that particular turn.

If you are going to focus on the inside ski, think more about having some functional tension to just hold it back - not an active movement to actually pull it back. It's a subtle but important difference.

And be aware that the amount of tip lead and counter needed is not a static thing. There isn't one "perfect turn". It will vary constantly based on the factors I identified above.