Please Help

[liquidfeet]

4. On the steeps -Try 'socks' - Socks is a technique where you slowly lean down and touch the top of your downhill boot with your downhill hand as you go into the turn , keep it there until you complete the turn and then do it again with your new downhill hand as you go into the next turn . This has the effect of getting your body weight over your downhill ski where it needs to be

Great advice, @ElizaK.

But whoops! The downhill boot at the start of a turn is the new inside boot. As the turn progresses to its second half, that downhill boot becomes the uphill boot but it's still the inside boot. I think your advice is to be leaning over the outside boot.

I'm assuming the previous turn was completed, with skis pointing more-or-less across the hill at the start of the exercise. Just to repeat, I think you mean the outside boot, and at the start of the turn that boot is the uphill boot. The outside boot/ski is what you need your weight on.

The "socks" drill sounds like the one I know as "pat the dog." Lean sideways over the uphill boot at the start of the turn as if reaching down to pat a small dog, and as the turn progresses that boot comes around and becomes the downhill boot.

Through the whole turn, this means you will be touching the sock of the outside boot. Your weight will be hovering over that outside ski through the whole turn, where it belongs. This is confusing, and why ski instructors sometimes take the time to teach students to use "new inside ski/boot/whatever" and "new outside" instead of "uphill" and "downhill" when talking about the transition between turns.

Another drill that does this is the "airplane" drill. On beginner terrain, hold both hands out like a scarecrow, no poles. Those are your wings; you are an airplane. Tilt your wings together so the hand that goes down is the uphill hand. Same as pat the dog, same as socks. Keep it that way through the whole turn, then switch when skis are pointing across the hill. Wheee!

All three of these exercises can do something in addition to getting weight on the new outside ski. They can effectively tilt the legs in the opposite direction the torso tilts. When this happens, it tips the skis onto their downhill edges without the skier having to think of the skis or feet. Sometimes it's scary to consciously tip the skis onto their downhill edges, so these can bypass the skier having to tip the skis. The airplane drill is especially good at this, but be sure to do it on beginner terrain as you'll usually get a carved turn.

 

[Maggis]

Maggis,
Have you tried "Making a Molehill into a Mountain"? Go to a slope where you know you can turn. Make a turn. Then ski straight down hill until you feel you are going fast and turn to a stop. At first it might be going straight for just a count of 1-2. Then lengthen it out to going straight for a count of three before you turn. Eventually you will be going very fast on your molehill then turning to a stop. This should help develop your confidence in your ability to turn, without putting you over your head.
Only then do you move onto something slightly steeper, and do a turn to a stop, and a turn stop until you are comfortable again.
The great thing about skiing is you can proceed at your own pace.

Thank you I will add this to my list of things to try out. It sounds like it might help to build up the nerves.

 

[Maggis]

@Maggis - I started skiing 3 years ago, at 62. Not very fit and never athletic. I’ve been very scared on the mountain, too. If you think about it, it only makes sense to be frightened!

I have 2 suggestions. One, google “fight, flight or freeze.” You will discover that your legs turning to lead is a completely natural, common response to fear, in humans and all over the animal kingdom. It’s not a conscious choice, but it mediated by the “old brain,” sometimes called the “lizard brain,” that controls things like heartbeat and breathing.

Second, do more visualizing of skiing down a hill (not a steep mountain). Imagine yourself stopping and enjoying the scenery. Imagine that happy scene you described, when you were really enjoying the imagery. Imagine slowing down with your wedge, and stopping mid-hill.

If you get really good st that, you could try feeling a tiny bit scared (in your imagination) but slowing and enjoying it anyway. And maybe add in that downhill feeling, and see if you can do that without panic.

Good for you for being so persistent! Stick to non-terrifying hills, until your confidence builds. Being scared over and over won’t improve things.

Best of luck!

@liquidfeet - I think I need a lesson with you!

Thank you for your thoughts, it is definitely fear, the frustration at being fearful, catch 22, thanks for the tips.

 

[Maggis]

Hi Maggie ,
You may want to read my post above about my on hill panic attacks . You are not alone and if you take one thing from my story , please let it be the fact that despite my overwhelming episodes of fear , I have progressed and I still love skiing .
I dont have all the answers but here is what I have learned about ski fear
1. Fear is natural and essential to survival , don t try and supress it but train past it ie keep training and your fear will only emerge on increasingly difficult terrain
2. Dont ski with male family members ALL the time , men are generally less fearful than women and tend to push women beyond their comfort level too soon . Sometimes thats a good thing as it pushes the less confident skier to be their best and sometimes it backfires and makes the less confident skier even more fearful
3. If a steep slope scares you , its usually because the turn you just did , did not feel right and your legs sensed it and your brain then over reacted
4. On the steeps -Try 'socks' - Socks is a technique where you slowly lean down and touch the top of your downhill boot with your downhill hand as you go into the turn , keep it there until you complete the turn and then do it again with your new downhill hand as you go into the next turn . This has the effect of getting your body weight over your downhill ski where it needs to be
5 . If you love skiing you WILL advance , you may need more lessons than your husband and son but 'what the hell' , if you need more lessons - take more lessons . Dont worry about the husband and son - who knows what they actually ski like on those red runs - could be great or could be all bravado, poor technique and untold stories of falls and blunders !!!
6 . Private lessons can sometimes be less helpful than group lessons . Having a better technique level than confidence level can result in one to one instruction taking you into territory that is fitting to your level of technical skill but above your level of confidence. Instructors generally dont understand fear well and so when they see you skiing well they head off to adventurous terrain and cant understand why you freeze up . I recall a situation when I skied a black run in Whistler with some style and then refused point blank to jump into a back bowl and left my instructor totally bewildered while I skied home early down a gentle green . If I had been in a group he probably wont have headed for the back bowls !!

Thank you for your reply. The advice here has been amazing and knowing I am not alone with this issue gives me more determination to keep going. Thank you.

 

[Maggis]

Great advice, @ElizaK.

But whoops! The downhill boot at the start of a turn is the new inside boot. As the turn progresses to its second half, that downhill boot becomes the uphill boot but it's still the inside boot. I think your advice is to be leaning over the outside boot.

I'm assuming the previous turn was completed, with skis pointing more-or-less across the hill at the start of the exercise. Just to repeat, I think you mean the outside boot, and at the start of the turn that boot is the uphill boot. The outside boot/ski is what you need your weight on.

The "socks" drill sounds like the one I know as "pat the dog." Lean sideways over the uphill boot at the start of the turn as if reaching down to pat a small dog, and as the turn progresses that boot comes around and becomes the downhill boot.

Through the whole turn, this means you will be touching the sock of the outside boot. Your weight will be hovering over that outside ski through the whole turn, where it belongs. This is confusing, and why ski instructors sometimes take the time to teach students to use "new inside ski/boot/whatever" and "new outside" instead of "uphill" and "downhill" when talking about the transition between turns.

Another drill that does this is the "airplane" drill. On beginner terrain, hold both hands out like a scarecrow, no poles. Those are your wings; you are an airplane. Tilt your wings together so the hand that goes down is the uphill hand. Same as pat the dog, same as socks. Keep it that way through the whole turn, then switch when skis are pointing across the hill. Wheee!

All three of these exercises can do something in addition to getting weight on the new outside ski. They can effectively tilt the legs in the opposite direction the torso tilts. When this happens, it tips the skis onto their downhill edges without the skier having to think of the skis or feet. Sometimes it's scary to consciously tip the skis onto their downhill edges, so these can bypass the skier having to tip the skis. The airplane drill is especially good at this, but be sure to do it on beginner terrain as you'll usually get a carved turn.

One ski instructor told me to have one hand higher than the other which is similar. This helped. I found I can ski well even getting parallel, nice up and down on the tiny slopes but take it a wee bit higher then freeze. The tiny slopes are tiny so I spend most time on the tow rope or button lift and long to manage a longer run but the minute that longer run has a challenge, like a dip or becomes a bit steeper then boom led legs. I did eventually make it last time but it meant the instructor having to come back and actually heaving a huge sigh of impatience and the group waiting and waiting :( There were moments however that it felt wonderful.

 

[liquidfeet]

Maggie,
I'm going to ramble for a while here while waiting for lunch to cook.

How far ahead are you looking? Can you see your skis as you ski? You should be looking fare enough ahead so that the tips of your skis are not visible. But many people look closer than that, and sometimes people look right down at the skis. Something is telling them this is safer, but it isn't. It means they can't see where they are going and they can't plan ahead. So it's unsafe.

Here's why I ask. It sounds like your inner copilot, the one whose job is to keep you upright on two legs and balanced, is telling you it's unsafe to proceed. So your legs freeze. I'm not sure, but I think this is probably the case.

We all have that inner copilot. It learns what "balanced" means on dryland, beginning when we are toddlers starting to walk. It keeps adding information about what will keep us from falling as we grow and encounter new balancing challenges. But almost all that learning the inner copilot does is on dryland, where our feet are stuck to the surface beneath them. It's management of our balance works fine on dryland.

But when we learn to ski, that copilot needs to be retrained. The old dryland tactics don't work on snow. They make the skier fall down.

So how do we allow the copilot to learn new tactics that will make us safely upright while sliding? There are a few simple and important things we can do to help it.

1. We need to look ahead, not at the skis. This will allow our minds to focus on the sensations coming from our feet. If we look down at the skis, the brain turns off its connections to those sensations and relies on visual information. That visual information is connected to our copilot's old methods of balancing us. Looking down keeps the old balancing tactics in force, and prohibits the copilot from learning the new ones. When a toddler takes those first steps, and all the steps afterwards, those eyes are on the target ahead. Toddlers train their copilots by looking ahead and allowing their minds to feel their balancing efforts at work.

2. Once our eyes are ahead (I'm using we and our because looking ahead was a major challenge for me as a late-life beginner), we can feel what the feet are doing. "Ski by Braille" is the phrase you'll sometimes hear. It works very well. Feel the pressure under both feet. Feel the way the toes are pointed. Feel the distance between your feet. Don't look! Just feel. Your copilot will adjust your balance using trial and error and discover what keeps you upright, and these balancing tactics will be specific to skiing, not the old stuff that works with walking and running.

3. Keep elbows in front of side-seams of the jacket, and hands in front of elbows. Do not swing arms or hands, as in walking. Swinging arms and hands is what the copilot has learned will help us walk and run. It throws us out of balance when we are sliding, so we need to stop that. Once those hands and arms are pretty stable out in front of us, the copilot will figure out how to keep us upright without the aid of their swinging. Removing poles helps the hands and arms stop swinging.

4. We need to feel how the torso is situated relative to our feet.
--We need to feel the way the torso, from pelvis up to shoulders, is pointing. Is it pointing the way the skis are pointing, or not? Is it turning first, before the feet/skis turn, or at the same time, keeping up with them... or does it turn a little less than the feet/skis (best answer)?
--Feel how upright or tilted it is. Is it leaning like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, or more upright (best answer)?
--Feel where the torso is relative to each foot leftie-rightie-wise. Is it between the feet, or moving over one then the other, or in advanced skiing, over both feet to the inside of the turn (there are different best answers depending on skiing level)?
--Feel where the torso is relative to the feet front-back-wise. Is it behind the feet? Over the feet? In front of the feet? (Both of these last two can be the best answer.) Keeping the arms and hands relatively stable (and the eyes ahead) helps all skiers feel these things, and helps the copilot train itself how to keep us upright while sliding by controlling the torso/upper body's changing position relative to the feet.

@Maggis, when your copilot learns enough new balancing tactics to feel it can keep you safely upright while you are sliding, it should stop filling your legs with lead and telling you to freeze. It's just trying to protect you. Look ahead, ditch the poles, allow your copilot to learn new balancing tactics specific to skiing. Practice with more speed on terrain you can keep yourself moving on. Progress onto challenging terrain when your copilot lets you.

That's my copilot talk.

 

[Maggis]

Maggie,
I'm going to ramble for a while here while waiting for lunch to cook.

How far ahead are you looking? Can you see your skis as you ski? You should be looking fare enough ahead so that the tips of your skis are not visible. But many people look closer than that, and sometimes people look right down at the skis. Something is telling them this is safer, but it isn't. It means they can't see where they are going and they can't plan ahead. So it's unsafe.

Here's why I ask. It sounds like your inner copilot, the one whose job is to keep you upright on two legs and balanced, is telling you it's unsafe to proceed. So your legs freeze. I'm not sure, but I think this is probably the case.

We all have that inner copilot. It learns what "balanced" means on dryland, beginning when we are toddlers starting to walk. It keeps adding information about what will keep us from falling as we grow and encounter new balancing challenges. But almost all that learning the inner copilot does is on dryland, where our feet are stuck to the surface beneath them. It's management of our balance works fine on dryland.

But when we learn to ski, that copilot needs to be retrained. The old dryland tactics don't work on snow. They make the skier fall down.

So how do we allow the copilot to learn new tactics that will make us safely upright while sliding? There are a few simple and important things we can do to help it.

1. We need to look ahead, not at the skis. This will allow our minds to focus on the sensations coming from our feet. If we look down at the skis, the brain turns off its connections to those sensations and relies on visual information. That visual information is connected to our copilot's old methods of balancing us. Looking down keeps the old balancing tactics in force, and prohibits the copilot from learning the new ones. When a toddler takes those first steps, and all the steps afterwards, those eyes are on the target ahead. Toddlers train their copilots by looking ahead and allowing their minds to feel their balancing efforts at work.

2. Once our eyes are ahead (I'm using we and our because looking ahead was a major challenge for me as a late-life beginner), we can feel what the feet are doing. "Ski by Braille" is the phrase you'll sometimes hear. It works very well. Feel the pressure under both feet. Feel the way the toes are pointed. Feel the distance between your feet. Don't look! Just feel. Your copilot will adjust your balance using trial and error and discover what keeps you upright, and these balancing tactics will be specific to skiing, not the old stuff that works with walking and running.

3. Keep elbows in front of side-seams of the jacket, and hands in front of elbows. Do not swing arms or hands, as in walking. Swinging arms and hands is what the copilot has learned will help us walk and run. It throws us out of balance when we are sliding, so we need to stop that. Once those hands and arms are pretty stable out in front of us, the copilot will figure out how to keep us upright without the aid of their swinging. Removing poles helps the hands and arms stop swinging.

4. We need to feel how the torso is situated relative to our feet.
--We need to feel the way the torso, from pelvis up to shoulders, is pointing. Is it pointing the way the skis are pointing, or not? Is it turning first, before the feet/skis turn, or at the same time, keeping up with them... or does it turn a little less than the feet/skis (best answer)?
--Feel how upright or tilted it is. Is it leaning like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, or more upright (best answer)?
--Feel where the torso is relative to each foot leftie-rightie-wise. Is it between the feet, or moving over one then the other, or in advanced skiing, over both feet to the inside of the turn (there are different best answers depending on skiing level)?
--Feel where the torso is relative to the feet front-back-wise. Is it behind the feet? Over the feet? In front of the feet? (Both of these last two can be the best answer.) Keeping the arms and hands relatively stable (and the eyes ahead) helps all skiers feel these things, and helps the copilot train itself how to keep us upright while sliding by controlling the torso/upper body's changing position relative to the feet.

@Maggis, when your copilot learns enough new balancing tactics to feel it can keep you safely upright while you are sliding, it should stop filling your legs with lead and telling you to freeze. It's just trying to protect you. Look ahead, ditch the poles, allow your copilot to learn new balancing tactics specific to skiing. Practice with more speed on terrain you can keep yourself moving on. Progress onto challenging terrain when your copilot lets you.

That's my copilot talk.

This was brilliant advice thank you for taking the time to write this up for me. I must admit when I got rid of the poles and had my hands in like a driving position I found I was much more balanced. Even at one time when going down the hill that freaked me, I stuck my poles in front and held them because they were just making things worse. When I get stuck and have the poles I end up just sticking them everywhere. There is one hill that I call hell hill. It is scary but short enough I think for me to practice letting the copilot take control. I feel if I can get down that hill then others should be fairly easy as it is short but fairly steep. I have tried three times but made a right mess of it but still on this trip I got down it without falling or ranting. I think I will use this to practice over and over and over on my next trip combined with practising speeding up on the bunny hills to make mountains out of molehills so to speak.

When I start getting a bit of speed my brain starts to forget the learning and I panic. It is inevitable to go faster on slightly steeper slopes and if there is a drop well forget it.

I will take all your hints and tips on my mobile and practice, practice, practice. The guy from Elite Media Ski School (Darren Turner) always says practice makes permanent. Thanks so much for all the advice.

 

[AltaEgo]

Thank you I will add this to my list of things to try out. It sounds like it might help to build up the nerves.

Remember you are not alone. I have had to hike uphill to back out of a situation that froze me up. Then everyone tried to advise me ("just move your foot","lean more downhill", Etc.). My problem is strictly from the neck up!

 

[Maggis]

Remember you are not alone. I have had to hike uphill to back out of a situation that froze me up. Then everyone tried to advise me ("just move your foot","lean more downhill", Etc.). My problem is strictly from the neck up!

One of the things that has been amazing is the encouragement from everyone here. I was beginning to worry whether failure was my middle name. Other people on the slopes seem to hide their fear really well and just do it. For example, everyone else in the groups got down those hills without the antics I produced. It is weird. I guess we also end up with a kind of shame too. Like you said no matter what people say it is in the head and the head just won't let the body do its thing.

 

[Ice Kitten]

@Maggis....it is not just you! I was actually on the verge of posting a very similar thread the other day as I had a very rough group lesson experience last week. I know the burden of feeling like everyone else is 'getting it' when you feel like you're stuck or, worse, feel like you're just taking steps backwards. That's why I keep coming back to this website. I get so much technical knowledge, even just lurking, and everyone is so wonderful and encouraging. This forum is the best.

 

[Obrules15]

@liquidfeet - I think I need a lesson with you!

Dude, LF is 'Da Bomb Diggity. I think everyone could use a lesson with her.

 

[Maggis]

Brief update here. I went skiing again twice since and both times the same outcome. Slight slope, then panic and freeze. Will I ever leave the bunny slope and glide down something marginally steeper and feel the wind on my face and the sheer pleasure at having done it! My legs just freeze at a slight dip in the slope and I am so awkward once we get passed a few snow ploughs and runs on the bunny slopes. What is wrong with me. It is so frustrating. It has gone beyond embarrassing. COVID permitting we are supposed to be going again at Christmas! Will this be the time I succeed? Please let it be so! Any help gratefully received!

 

[Jilly]

The night before you ski again re-read Liquidfeet's post.

 

[Maggis]

The night before you ski again re-read Liquidfeet's post.

Absolutely I have pasted them into a document and will go over and over the posts again. In fact I have enough time to memorise them.

 

[Jilly]

If you can go, where is the plan to go?

 

[sibhusky]

I feel like you are putting so much pressure on yourself to move to the next level, like it's something you MUST do. I think what you need to do is learn to enjoy where you are. Because unless you find joy at your current level, you'll never be at the point of taking on more challenge.

It's hard to know what is available where you are skiing, is it always the same ski area? Do you go down the hill you are on and ever feel like you're bored? I really feel like if you could do the same slope until you are bored to tears, yet happy with your performance on that slope, the next thing would be to try another slope that is considered to be the same difficulty and see how you do there. Are there other slopes of the same pitch available? If so and if you've been on them, how do you do on those? Is it the sheer change of venue that's the issue? Or is it only an increase in pitch?

Do you have similar fears in non-skiing activities? I had a friend who was absolutely terrified of escalators. She was a hard-headed business woman decades ago when every meeting you had to prove your abilities again, but escalators undid her. She climbed stairs for 3-4 stories making us all wait rather than get on them. She was fine with elevators and climbing mountains. Sometimes fears are just totally inexplicable.

 

[badger]

Brief update here. I went skiing again twice since and both times the same outcome. Slight slope, then panic and freeze. Will I ever leave the bunny slope and glide down something marginally steeper and feel the wind on my face and the sheer pleasure at having done it! My legs just freeze at a slight dip in the slope and I am so awkward once we get passed a few snow ploughs and runs on the bunny slopes. What is wrong with me. It is so frustrating. It has gone beyond embarrassing. COVID permitting we are supposed to be going again at Christmas! Will this be the time I succeed? Please let it be so! Any help gratefully received!

You WILL get there. I know that most of us have had the same feeling that the Bunny Hill was our only skiing destiny. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you!! You will evolve as a skier when you ski without concern for your Bunny Hill residence. It honestly takes time on the mountain, and I don't mean 20 days, or 50. Every day out will present a hurdle when you're starting. And then one day you noticed that you skied terrain that used to "freeze you legs". Then another new hurdle presents itself. Skiing where you are most comfortable is where you will likely gain the most confidence. Your new confidence will take you to bluer real estate and you'll be surprised at your progress... it just happens.

The advice shared with you above is priceless. Try to just ski for a bit without thinking of that very well-stated instruction and just look ahead at where you want to go downslope. You may find that after several runs that your technique is coming together! Then take that confidence to another run doing the same skiing without thinking, but simply feeling the snow and the joy of moving down the hill. Then after feeling what you have accomplished, concentrate on one of the instructions the wise divas have shared. Work on one thing at a time.

I had a pickleball coach that told me this: Don't try to win a point with every shot, just keep the ball in play. It takes the pressure off, and allows a more relaxed progression mentally and physically.

 

[bsskier]

A private lesson might help. Ask for a very experienced teacher who works well with timid adults. "Timid" is the word we often use to mean people having trouble with being overly cautious.

Oh, I added some more questions to that post up there.

Thank you for that code word! This is me.

 

[newboots]

I agree with everything @sibhusky said, except the reference to fears [sometimes] being inexplicable. That's true enough, but I don't apply that to skiing. We are used to walking and running, but suddenly we are sliding? We are used to being cautious about the ice and snow, but now we are hurtling down a hill on it! Skiing is scary to a beginner.

For me, a big step was making consistent turns. After enough time (a couple of years. Well, three years) I somehow realized that I could get down almost anything as long as I could ski across the trail. "Use the whole trail" rang in my head, and once I got it (and once my body believed it), I was suddenly less frightened, even on steeper terrain.

Take heart! Stop beating yourself up! Many of us have been through this, yes, with the tears, some tantrums even, frustration, and terror. Practice making nice wide turns, and keep adding more time on snow. And we are here! We believe in you!

 

[sibhusky]

I agree with everything @sibhusky said, except the reference to fears [sometimes] being inexplicable. That's true enough, but I don't apply that to skiing.

Well, I was thinking more of fear of heights . A skiing friend of mine from Minnesota cannot ski certain runs here due to his fear of heights. It's not on all trails and is not due to steepness per se but the visuals on certain trails make him physically queasy. If the trail feels more "closed-in" it's okay. No vistas allowed.