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Parallels Between Skiing and Trail Running - Good Technique

yogiskier

Angel Diva
I have my first trail half marathon (at Harriman Bear Mountain in NY) in 2 weeks and I did a preview run of the area last Sunday. I'm not a very fast runner and knew that I'd be hiking some of the time, but was still surprised that it took me as long as it did (2hrs and 45min moving time) to finish 10 miles. I felt that my legs were really trashed by the end and I wondered whether I could improve something technique-wise to make running all of those hills (both up and down) relatively easier.

I did some internet research and was amazed to find advice about running technical (i.e., rocky) downhill trails that was similar to skiing :smile: In a Trail Runner article David Roche says "try to keep your shoulders, hips and ankles aligned at impact, using the hips and knees as key indicators of proper form. Run tall through the hips, and avoid “sitting down” in your stride. Because of forward momentum, maintaining upright posture through the hips may actually feel like leaning forward a few degrees." He then talks about "relax and flow": "The informal downhiller jumps over rocks, lets his/her arms go above his/her head when that seems to help and doesn’t worry about a misstep or bad line. The formal downhiller stiffly views each rock as an obstacle and each steep section as a competitor.

If you relax and flow, you’ll run downhills faster because you are not putting on the brakes unnecessarily, but instead letting gravity do the work. This practice can be learned over time, like anything in life."

This video by "The Run Experience" discusses some good downhill techniques. Minute 6:36 - looking ahead a few turns instead of straight down and then minute 8:28 - getting out of the backseat.

Woe is me - my skiing nemesis, the backseat, has followed me from skiing to trail running! :doh:

I went for a trail run yesterday and tried to adjust my technique - smaller steps, looking ahead, getting out of the backseat - and what do you know, I think I found some flow and it was more fun! :D
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
This thread topic is one that's been of interest to me for years. I wish I had been given good advice when I started running New England trails. For years I ran the downhills the wrong way, and my knees now bear the evidence.

The big trick to not braking with each footplant (yielding high impact on each knee with each stride) is to footplant as far back behind your CoM as possible. This takes guts on the downhills.

The trick to not face-planting on those downhills is to continuously look ahead to plan your line along the obstacle-filled trail (rocks and roots, for those unfamiliar with New England trails), and trust your unconscious co-pilot to place each foot on that line without looking down at your feet. Keeping your eyes on the line ahead, as far ahead as possible (trainable), slows down time and eliminates the whoops-surprise! effect of impact with a rock you only now just saw.

Trail-running around here, because of those two issues, is good training for bump skiing. Keep CoM in front of BoS, and keep your eyes moving ahead along your chosen line.

Since I'm old and my brain and body are getting iffy, I wear knee and wrist guards made for rollerblading. If I were young I might not feel the need to do this, but at my age I don't mind looking weird out there on the trails. I do worry about stumbling and landing on granite with my wrist or knee.

I look forward to seeing what people know about technical downhill trail running.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Deliberate practice planting feet back behind self instead of out front (the usual reality) was absolutely necessary for me to build this habit. Perhaps it comes naturally to some runners. I've had to work on it, but now can feel where my footplants are relative to my CoM and adjust accordingly.

Also, I've learned to land with the knee bent. I learned this the hard way too. I used to reach forward with straight leg and land with knee extended. Not good! I've learned to land soft with knee bent to reduce that impact. I think of my feet as wheels beneath my smoothly descending (hopefully) body, and my bendy legs as my suspension that produces that smooth ride. Run soft.

When I seek speed, I lengthen my stride by lengthening the back end of each stride, not the front end - which would put me in the back seat.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks for sharing the article; very helpful! I'm only an occasional trail runner but a frequent builder and maintainer of MTB trails and have always had trouble with balance and control when walking downhill. Not good when you're carrying a chain saw and a gas can :redface:. It's good to have some strategies.

The looking ahead down the trail advice is familiar from mountain biking; if you want to get fast, you have pick up your eyes. It's amazing what a difference it makes in your speed, control, and fun.
 

yogiskier

Angel Diva
@liquidfeet Yeah, Trail Runner is part of the Outside magazine empire and a few articles are free but others are behind a paywall. I just signed up for a year subscription because I was wanting to read more about trail running and kept getting frustrated, so I have access. I copied and pasted the article here - hope it's legible!

How To Run Steep Downhills​

October 8, 2021 David Roche




Learning how to run downhill is like learning how to dance. When you start, you are like a pimpled seventh grader hoping not to make a fool out of yourself. Over time, though, you can learn to bust a move with the best of them.
Just like dancing, downhill running requires you to commit, relax and get your mind out of the way. Any trail runner can learn what to do, if you let yourself.
Downhills are not that complicated, but they take practice. Good downhill running starts with three general rules, which you can use to gain comfort on any terrain.
RELATED: Dial In Your Trail Running Technique

1. Take short strides​

On downhills, runners tend to use gravity and open up their stride, bounding over the trail with heavy footfalls. That is a bad approach for two reasons.
First, a longer stride gives you fewer opportunities to course-correct as you go. Each footfall that lands in front of your body is a risk, because a larger percentage of your weight is supported by that footfall. Step wrong with a loping stride, and you’ll probably taste dirt before you have a chance to say, “Oh fudge.”
With short strides, each step involves less impact force and thus gives you a chance to adjust on the fly. Step badly, and you might already be on to the next step. Sometimes, the best downhillers are really just the best controlled stumblers, able to misstep and recover constantly without any issues.
Second, long downhill strides increase eccentric muscle contractions, which can lead to soreness later. Eccentric contractions are the controlled lengthening of muscle under tension. Imagine your leg extended in front of you. As you land, your knee will bend, causing eccentric contractions and associated muscle damage.
Shorter strides will still cause some eccentric contractions, but since the muscles aren’t under as much load with each stride, the next-day soreness will be less pronounced.
RELATED: Strength Train For Better Downhill Running

2. Practice appropriate posture​

Essentially, you want to keep your feet under your center of gravity, rather than leaning too far forward or backward. Lean forward excessively and your momentum will increase, limiting your ability to adjust to the terrain as it comes. Lean back, and your leg will land in front of your mass, causing eccentric muscle contractions and problems from over-striding.
Instead, try to keep your shoulders, hips and ankles aligned at impact, using the hips and knees as key indicators of proper form. Run tall through the hips, and avoid “sitting down” in your stride. Because of forward momentum, maintaining upright posture through the hips may actually feel like leaning forward a few degrees.
At the same time, focus on a relaxed knee drive, lifting your feet from the knee, rather than kicking back. That will help you avoid kicking rocks and will contribute to a quick, soft stride.
RELATED: Training To Be A Strong Downhill Runner

3. Relax and let it flow​

People sometimes describe good downhill running as making love to the trail. Others treat downhill running like a job interview.
The informal downhiller jumps over rocks, lets his/her arms go above his/her head when that seems to help and doesn’t worry about a misstep or bad line. The formal downhiller stiffly views each rock as an obstacle and each steep section as a competitor.
If you relax and flow, you’ll run downhills faster because you are not putting on the brakes unnecessarily, but instead letting gravity do the work. This practice can be learned over time, like anything in life.
If you consider yourself a bad downhill runner, let that thought slip away. Anyone can become an expert downhill runner if you work at it and avoid self-judgment. After all, gravity is a constant for all of us. Make it a constant companion, rather than a constant enemy.
David Roche partners with runners of all abilities through his coaching service, Some Work, All Play. With Megan Roche, M.D., he hosts the Some Work, All Play podcast on running (and other things), and they wrote a book called The Happy Runner.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks, @yogiskier. Interesting article.

Everyone running rocky/rooty/twisty/hilly New England trails needs to figure out what works for them. I had two issues to figure out. One was stance, and the other was how to avoid stumbling on obstacles and falling forward. I have stance issues independent of running, so there's that. And I look down, so there's that too. Most people don't have to deal with those two issues. Both required solutions not found in my readings about trail running.

I don't know if my personal experience is of use to others; just letting people who read this thread know what I have gone through in case it can help.

My knees suffered over time from the repeated high impact because of my forward footplants. I'm living with this. Attempting to place my footplants "behind me" has been the best solution. Of course I don't succeed in getting my footplants that far back, but the attempt works to keep me from "overstriding," aka planting foot forward, and has stopped the damaging impacts on the soft tissues inside my knees.

What trail-running challenges that are like skiing are you encountering? What are your trails like? Here are a few images of the trails I run.

Big rocks when it's steep
IMG_2214.jpeg
Little rocks
rocks.jpeg
Intermittent rocks and roots
IMG_9621.jpeg
No rocks when it's flat
beech and fallen leaves.jpeg
 
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RJ*

Angel Diva
I love trail running, but I’ve struggled with injuries as well. Chi Running gave me a good framework to work on my technique. I’m constantly trying to “stack” my body as well as possible, land as softly as I can, and use gravity to my advantage, even on the flats. I found many parallels with good skiing technique (and I find myself sometimes pretending I’m skiing on the downhills lol).

I had a few sessions with a coach but what really helps is the audiobook. It has chapters that are meant to be used while running, and I really enjoy going for some runs on the flat where I just focus on my form.
 

yogiskier

Angel Diva
I think I read Chi Running years ago...listening to the audiobook in real time sounds like an interesting experiment!
 
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RJ*

Angel Diva
I think the technique requires a ton of repetition and awareness of body position in the moment. Danny Dreyer (creator of the method and author of the book) takes the listener through what I think is 12 focuses that last a few minutes each where you only pay attention to one aspect of the technique at a time - hinging from the ankles, letting gravity pull your body forward as a whole, focusing your eyes down the road and not immediately in front of you, proper position of arms, pelvis/neck position (what he calls the C shape) etc.

It was not until I started going out for runs on the flat with the audiobook that I started to feel like I was making some progress in the technique. So yes, if you are into Chi Running I highly recommend the audiobook!
 

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