Overcrowding at Ski Resorts

[ski diva]

My Facebook feed is full of pictures of unbelievable lift lines during the weekends at ski resorts all across the country, as well as people complaining about traffic and parking. Yes, these are primarily at Epic and IKON resorts. And yes, it's particularly bad over weekends and holidays. And yes, it's especially bad after there's been snow. But things seem even more awful this year.

So let's talk about it. Why has it gotten so bad, even at the smaller, non-corporate resorts? This isn't new. We've seen pictures of horrific lift lines and traffic for years. But it seems to have become worse and worse. Is it the low cost, mega-resort passes? Is it the closure of so many smaller resorts? Is it because there's so much hype for the big guys? Is it the increasing presence of air b&bs and VRBO rentals? Is it a combination. like a perfect storm?

In the ski town nearest me, it's a disaster -- and not just at the mountain (Okemo), where lift lines during peak days are totally out of control. The mountain's parking lots are full by 9:30/10AM, so people are parking all over town -- in lots for private businesses, on residential streets -- and taking the shuttle in. Traffic through town is a nightmare. It's spilled over from the main street to surrounding roads, making it impossible to get anywhere, even for emergency vehicles. Sure, the town loves the business the mountain brings in. They depend on it. But it's totally out of hand. Part of the problem, I think, is that Okemo has no reservation system. Sure, it says it limits day passes, but there are no such requirements for pass holders. And there are no accommodations for parking, once the resort lots are full. People drive up to go skiing and the lots are at capacity....where are they going to park? It's causing a lot of problems and ill will.

As far as I can see it, Okemo has two choices:
1) Start requiring reservations for EVERYONE, pass holders and day ticket buyers alike;
2) As part of this, SERIOUSLY limit capacity; not just give it lip service, like they're doing now;
And 3) Provide off-site parking with reliable, consistent shuttle service to the mountain. Or do something to increase parking at the mountain (perhaps a parking garage).

So what's it like at your mountain? And what's your feeling about what's going on? Let's talk about it.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Sure the lines were awful after 4 feet of snow in 48hrs, but most of it was because of delayed openings. Once lifts were spinning the lines quickly dissipated, and legs tired fast so the slopes and lines were not as bad as it first appeared.

Parking is a major issue but I firmly believe that better public transportation can solve much of it if the busses are plentiful enough and frequent enough to have a seat and useful time frame.

We are a more crowded planet, where more people have the time and money and ability to ski yet resorts have not expanded at the rate of new housing developments or the social media onslaught of amazing powder skiing footage. I guess that I am not surprised.

In my town people used to complain that only the top percenters could afford to ski. Now the narrative and complaints have turned the other direction. Change is hard at times, but I still prefer to see a wider and more diverse audience for the sport and the appreciation of the mountains and climate that it hopefully fosters.

This is of course only my personal take on one resort, which does happen to be on Ikon.

 

[Jilly]

I didn't notice too much over the Christmas holiday, but MLK weekend....wow! I purchased a "speed pass" many years ago and have kept it up. Now they are not selling it, unless you've had it before. And they raised the price. If you own a unit on the mountain that was part of the original Intrawest, you get it free still. If you purchase a unit now, you don't get it. It allows me to go through a gate and get on the lift.

But MLK. First it's not a holiday for us. But we had a dump of snow that week. I had someone ask me about the crowd. That's all I could think of....new snow, holidays done, lesson groups starting....totally forgot about it being a holiday in the states. And the Americans were there. 30% deal on everything with exchange. It was so crowded that I went home for lunch as you couldn't get into the lodge at the top.

But going back to Ski Diva's points.

Parking isn't an issue if you know where to go. Tremblant has 2 lots on the south side that get filled quickly and part of one lot is actually a pay lot - aka you can buy a season parking pass. There are 2 more on the way over to the casino. Then the casino parking, which gives you access to the Versant Soleil. And the huge lot on the north side. But people want quick access to the south side. And they don't want to park to just drop their kids off for snow school. So the main road gets clogged with these people for about 1 hour first thing in the morning. I can watch the whole thing from my kitchen table.

Costs. I think this is main part. I paid $649 US for my Ikon pass. If we didn't have Ikon, I suspect that this years pass would have been in the $1300 area or more. I was trying to remember what I last paid under Intrawest.

Air BnB/VRBO etc. Yeah...this is problem actually in the condo development that I have a seasonal rental. The building I'm in has 8 total units. 4 are STR. 3 are seasonal and 1 is lived in. We have issues with parking, garbage and noise. I actually have a person parking in my parking spot during the week, so I know I can get into my spot. It's crazy. Some people are good, but there seem to be a lot that don't care. I'm not sure, if I owned a unit, that I would want to put in on one of these site.
And because there are so many of these STR, there is no place for staff to stay. So everywhere is short staffed.

Since I stay on the mountain, I don't see the traffic in town, but I have heard that there are issues when the hill closes getting out. There really is only 1 way so it gets jammed.

Crowds....I don't know what to say. I'm hoping next season to only ski during the week. Seriously looking at selling the business and retiring. Tremblant didn't have the reservation system either during Covid. And it didn't seem as busy, probably because no one was getting into the country. This year so far is been busy with the holiday time. I'm heading up next weekend. It's not a holiday anywhere that I know of, so it should be just the weekend crowd. We'll see.

Ticket prices. I would say that during the MLK weekend, I saw a surprising lot of "day passes". During the holidays they up the price on day tickets and I heard $175 for the day. Wow, that's not cheap to stand in line for 1/2 hour to get up the gondola...At that price, my pass at 14 days is long paid.

This is the one of the main businesses in the area The resort brings in lots of money etc. But I know the locals are not happy about a lot of things. But they don't want to "bite the hands that feed them".

 

[ilovepugs]

This is why I converted to the Church of Mad River Glen and even went as far as buying a share there. They are serious about the capacity limits and the skier experience. Yesterday the lines were pretty busy because it was a sold-out Saturday with good snow (ski school adds to the lines big time) but the downhill experience is second to none when the snow is good. Even on a sold out Saturday I barely saw anyone else on the trail with me except at a handful of choke points and one little race team group I was trailing. Skied to lunch and there was no one else on the trail with me until I got within a few turns of the main base area.

(This is also why I’m happy I live in a town with very few amenities. My property taxes are almost equal to my starter home mortgage in my 20s but at least I don’t pay a similar amount of property taxes to live in the country while feeling like my personal space is being overrun by tourists. We don’t even have a full service restaurant.)

 

[snoWYmonkey]

As for STRs, at least where I live, those homes would likely sit empty as pure second homes for most of the year. This would help with resort crowding, but would not solve the housing challenge. We converted our basement to help pay for taxes that are doubling each year. It is illegal to rent it out short term so we do house essential local workers for quite a bit less than going monthly rental rates. It means that we can't have family visit us any more....

 

[Jilly]

That's what a friend of mine does in the summer. She doesn't use her condo, so she rents it to staff that need housing.

 

[Jilly]

I wanted to add that our local bump is still doing the reservations. They are doing 4 hour blocks. I know of a family that is just starting the kids skiing. He's decided that the family will travel the extra 3/4 hour to go to a different hill that does not have reservations. He wants the kids to ski all day and take their time at it. Also that place is in the middle of no where, so it's not busy. Cost for full day is the same as the 4 hour block at this other place.

Also in Ontario the snow conditions have not been great. The weather has been to warm to make snow. So people are travelling to the snow. Which happens to be Quebec.

 

[Mudgirl630]

My Facebook feed is full of pictures of unbelievable lift lines during the weekends at ski resorts all across the country, as well as people complaining about traffic and parking. Yes, these are primarily at Epic and IKON resorts. And yes, it's particularly bad over weekends and holidays. And yes, it's especially bad after there's been snow. But things seem even more awful this year.

So let's talk about it. Why has it gotten so bad, even at the smaller, non-corporate resorts? This isn't new. We've seen pictures of horrific lift lines and traffic for years. But it seems to have become worse and worse. Is it the low cost, mega-resort passes? Is it the closure of so many smaller resorts? Is it because there's so much hype for the big guys? Is it the increasing presence of air b&bs and VRBO rentals? Is it a combination. like a perfect storm?

In the ski town nearest me, it's a disaster -- and not just at the mountain (Okemo), where lift lines during peak days are totally out of control. The mountain's parking lots are full by 9:30/10AM, so people are parking all over town -- in lots for private businesses, on residential streets -- and taking the shuttle in. Traffic through town is a nightmare. It's spilled over from the main street to surrounding roads, making it impossible to get anywhere, even for emergency vehicles. Sure, the town loves the business the mountain brings in. They depend on it. But it's totally out of hand. Part of the problem, I think, is that Okemo has no reservation system. Sure, it says it limits day passes, but there are no such requirements for pass holders. And there are no accommodations for parking, once the resort lots are full. People drive up to go skiing and the lots are at capacity....where are they going to park? It's causing a lot of problems and ill will.

As far as I can see it, Okemo has two choices:
1) Start requiring reservations for EVERYONE, pass holders and day ticket buyers alike;
2) As part of this, SERIOUSLY limit capacity; not just give it lip service, like they're doing now;
And 3) Provide off-site parking with reliable, consistent shuttle service to the mountain. Or do something to increase parking at the mountain (perhaps a parking garage).

So what's it like at your mountain? And what's your feeling about what's going on? Let's talk about it.

My Facebook feed is full of pictures of unbelievable lift lines during the weekends at ski resorts all across the country, as well as people complaining about traffic and parking. Yes, these are primarily at Epic and IKON resorts. And yes, it's particularly bad over weekends and holidays. And yes, it's especially bad after there's been snow. But things seem even more awful this year.

So let's talk about it. Why has it gotten so bad, even at the smaller, non-corporate resorts? This isn't new. We've seen pictures of horrific lift lines and traffic for years. But it seems to have become worse and worse. Is it the low cost, mega-resort passes? Is it the closure of so many smaller resorts? Is it because there's so much hype for the big guys? Is it the increasing presence of air b&bs and VRBO rentals? Is it a combination. like a perfect storm?

In the ski town nearest me, it's a disaster -- and not just at the mountain (Okemo), where lift lines during peak days are totally out of control. The mountain's parking lots are full by 9:30/10AM, so people are parking all over town -- in lots for private businesses, on residential streets -- and taking the shuttle in. Traffic through town is a nightmare. It's spilled over from the main street to surrounding roads, making it impossible to get anywhere, even for emergency vehicles. Sure, the town loves the business the mountain brings in. They depend on it. But it's totally out of hand. Part of the problem, I think, is that Okemo has no reservation system. Sure, it says it limits day passes, but there are no such requirements for pass holders. And there are no accommodations for parking, once the resort lots are full. People drive up to go skiing and the lots are at capacity....where are they going to park? It's causing a lot of problems and ill will.

As far as I can see it, Okemo has two choices:
1) Start requiring reservations for EVERYONE, pass holders and day ticket buyers alike;
2) As part of this, SERIOUSLY limit capacity; not just give it lip service, like they're doing now;
And 3) Provide off-site parking with reliable, consistent shuttle service to the mountain. Or do something to increase parking at the mountain (perhaps a parking garage).

So what's it like at your mountain? And what's your feeling about what's going on? Let's talk about it.

Not here in Aspen!
Come this way!
we are known for not being busy

 

[RachelV]

Can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but does anyone know of any resorts struggling with overcrowding that are not on a megapass at all?

Are there any resorts struggling with this that are on a limited version of a megapass (for example, on the Ikon pass but only for 5 or 7 days vs unlimited days)? I think Snowbasin might be an example of this, but I'm not in the loop enough with Utah to know all the ways you can buy a pass to Snowbasin. I also think Jackson Hole is an example of this.

And it's a little odd to me that Jackson is struggling with this and Aspen isn't. Both are limited on the Ikon pass, both have relatively expensive season passes, neither is close enough to a major metro area to get day trippers.

I guess I am just trying to see if it's possible to pull out other contributing factors here beyond megapasses.

 

[Jilly]

And Aspen and JH are adds on to the base Ikon pass.

 

[Iwannaski]

One observation about the lift lines is that if you have people who don’t understand effective and responsible lift loading, you end up with lifts running below capacity and long lines. I’ve watched people load 2 to a 4 seat while a line was emerging … or people not loading mixed snowboarders/skiers because they’re scared of unloading with the snowboarder, etc. People not having their poop in a group and letting an empty chair go by - which is the worst.

Is it possible that the growth of skiing with gaps in skiing etiquette “intergenerational” training has led to some issues?

 

[ski diva]

I guess I am just trying to see if it's possible to pull out other contributing factors here beyond megapasses.

Yes, me, too.

 

[rhymeandreason]

I think the answer is “more people”

It’s Not Your Imagination: U.S. Ski Industry Hits Record 61 Million Skier Visits for 2021-22 Season

Now what?

www.stormskiing.com

 

[elemmac]

Are there any resorts struggling with this that are on a limited version of a megapass (for example, on the Ikon pass but only for 5 or 7 days vs unlimited days)?

Sunday River has become more and more crowded. It’s on the IKON with limited days. Like Jilly mentioned about Tremblant, it’s been very noticeable these past couple weekends (starting with MLK weekend).

I can’t say for sure how much of this is due to being on the IKON, but I have been on the lift with more than one person this year stating that they left the Epic pass and trying the IKON instead (due to rough experience with Vail owners mountains last year). Being in close proximity to two VR owned mountains that were severely mismanaged last year, I am guessing there was a rise in IKON passes in the area. I have multiple friends that had Epic passes that swapped to another mountain, IKON, or Indy this year.

I have noticed an influx of crowds on the mountain, and heard about the long traffic jams coming through town…multiple stories about hour+ long drives that should only take 10-15 minutes. Parking has filled up these past two Saturdays…stories of people being directed to park at the local golf course (owned by SR), a local brewery with a massive lot, and even at the local airport 5 miles away.

 

[Pequenita]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619388592396308480

At 9:30am yesterday, all parking at Palisades Tahoe was full. The main lots at Alpine were full by 8:30am. Sure the Mountaineer shuttle operates within the resorts, and TART is free from Tahoe City and Truckee, but for either of those to function efficiently, traffic needs to actually move. The Olympic Valley side had a lunchtime tweet about congestion on a main run on the mountain.

I don't know what lift lines were like - the only first person report that I have is that they seemed longer than last weekend. I was west of the highway exit for Palisades (closer to the cities), and when I got onto the freeway at 5:30pm to head home, it was surprisingly busy, which makes me think there were many day trippers yesterday. Possible reasons why: the 49ers are in the NFC championships today, so people skied yesterday; yesterday was a beautiful day; and daytrippers didn't want to deal with chain control today (no chain control yesterday).

The multi-resort pass isn't what's affecting the influx of day trippers to this resort because it's the *only* pass (unless you want to buy a resort-specific pass for the same price). I think the factor here is that there are a lot of people with spending money and marketing of the resort as *the* place to be on the weekends. What I am curious about is whether and to what extent the layoffs in the tech industry change the number of weekday skiers. I would imagine there is a segment that have ski leases and now have weekdays free to ski (vs. teleworking).

 

[Christy]

Can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but does anyone know of any resorts struggling with overcrowding that are not on a megapass at all?

Are there any resorts struggling with this that are on a limited version of a megapass (for example, on the Ikon pass but only for 5 or 7 days vs unlimited days)? I think Snowbasin might be an example of this, but I'm not in the loop enough with Utah to know all the ways you can buy a pass to Snowbasin. I also think Jackson Hole is an example of this.

And it's a little odd to me that Jackson is struggling with this and Aspen isn't. Both are limited on the Ikon pass, both have relatively expensive season passes, neither is close enough to a major metro area to get day trippers.

I guess I am just trying to see if it's possible to pull out other contributing factors here beyond megapasses.

Population growth and the increased popularity of outdoor sports are contributing factors to ski areas (and nordic trails, and hiking trails...) here being busier than they used to be. But, the places that have struggled most--Stevens Pass and Crystal Mt--are on megapasses. They are on megapasses AND are a very easy day trip for millions of people. Turns out that is a very bad combo. Crystal has gotten a handle on things by requiring parking reservations and fees and providing good free bus service from the nearest town (45 minutes away).

The non-megapass areas have been freer to manage crowds. Mt Baker limits season pass and day ticket sales for example. White Pass and Mission Ridge don't limit passes, but are 3 hours in the best of conditions from the Seattle area.

 

[Christy]

It turns out good management can improve things at Epic resorts, so, there is hope. Everyone loves what Ellen Gailbraith has done at Stevens Pass. She sounds like an exceptionally competent manager. But you still need to get there by 8 (lifts start at 9) to get parking. They don't have bus service and don't require parking reservations or fees. It sounds like this is what Ellen is figuring out now.

With a racer’s discipline, new GM turns a corner at Stevens Pass

Ellen Galbraith, a UW alumna, former ski racer and coach, climbed the ranks at Vail Resorts to a dream job (and a tall task): managing Stevens Pass out of a crisis.

www.seattletimes.com

Ellen keeps this Seattle Times cartoon from last year thumbtacked at her desk.

 

[Christy]

Is it the low cost, mega-resort passes? Is it the closure of so many smaller resorts? Is it because there's so much hype for the big guys? Is it the increasing presence of air b&bs and VRBO rentals?

Oh and here, no smaller resorts or any resorts have closed, and there's really no lodging at ski areas, which have always been day use in the Cascades, on USFS land. So here it's just more people + more people doing outdoor sports + cheap passes.

 

[Abbi]

I think the answer is “more people”

It’s Not Your Imagination: U.S. Ski Industry Hits Record 61 Million Skier Visits for 2021-22 Season

Now what?

www.stormskiing.com

Yet the industry claims skiing visits are down.

 

[lady_Salina]

Can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but does anyone know of any resorts struggling with overcrowding that are not on a megapass at all?

Are there any resorts struggling with this that are on a limited version of a megapass (for example, on the Ikon pass but only for 5 or 7 days vs unlimited days)? I think Snowbasin might be an example of this, but I'm not in the loop enough with Utah to know all the ways you can buy a pass to Snowbasin. I also think Jackson Hole is an example of this.

And it's a little odd to me that Jackson is struggling with this and Aspen isn't. Both are limited on the Ikon pass, both have relatively expensive season passes, neither is close enough to a major metro area to get day trippers.

I guess I am just trying to see if it's possible to pull out other contributing factors here beyond megapasses.

I was talking to Robert Huter at the beginning of the season. He's one of the family owners of family run Mount St Louis Moonstone in Ontario. He said his largest current struggle is over crowding on the hill. They are not on any pass but their own and having many issues with lines and parking. Skiing has become much safer than it was in the 70's and 80's with advancement in equipment, lifts and on hill practices. This may be what contributes to more people learning how and putting their children on skis. There was also a multi decade push to increase awareness of skiing as a family activity, more children's and adult 8 week programs. All of it seems to have added up to many more skiers on the hills and then the mega passes have made it not only affordable but they make road trips and ski trips affordable as you can purchase one pass and pick a vacation resort too.