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New Volkl Kenjas skiing awful after first tune--and a rant about misogyny

vickie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Recently met with a bootfitter to determine what boots I need. Hs wanted to see my feet, my current boots, all footbeds I have, and my skis. As soon as he looked at my skis, he said he needed to file them, that the machine only goes so far down the ski and then they need to be hand-finished. If they are not filed -- and I think the purpose is to carry the bevel farther toward the tips and tails -- the tails will "windshield wiper" on me.

He could tell this by looking at the markings on the edges.

Detuning is one thing. This is different. I don't tune my own skis. Maybe someone here who does can give you the correct terminology.
 

GlassFast

Diva in Training
(no offense meant to the ski instructors here)
You know what's funny, the second guy also made sure to tell me he was a ski instructor on that very mountain for 15 years. Told me I shouldn't be going down blacks but to stay on greens and blues and work on my technique.
 

sorcamc

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I started tuning skis myself because I have trust issues. The first time I demoed a ski I was like, what the heck is wrong with these skis. I told the guy running the demo and explained they kept catching and I thought I was gonna die skiing them. He pulled out a gummy and detuned the tips and tails and said, try now. Having had that experience, I can see that sharpening too much length of the ski can really effect performance. I tune my own skis, but always keep a piece of a gummy stone in my coat pocket in case they feel too "grabby" when I am out the first time after a tune. I hope its a simple fox! I love my Volkl Kenjas
 

Iwannaski

Angel Diva
So. Just so I’m understaning:

You’ve been skiing for years and working on your skills.
You researched your ski decision, bought skis that were suitable to your skills/style, and used them successfully.
You paid these assholes for service.
They messed up their service.
And then blamed you?

I am seeing red FOR you. From the comments above, I anticipate that you can get your problem solved for the skis. You know that they will never get your business again.

And also, I hope you absolutely eviscerate them in your 1 star review.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I've also had this happen. It's definitely the tune. There are a bunch of things that can go wrong with a tune. When they go wrong, the skier thinks it's them until they understand what exactly happened. This has happened to me several times, and it sounds like it's happened to others posting here as well.

--The black base must be flat. Someone should check with a "true bar" to make sure it's flat. If it's not flat, the edge bevels can change from tip to tail. Ask the shop where you have it worked on this time to check and tell you if the bases are flat. If they aren't, that might be your problem right there.

--There are two bevels put on the metal edges of your skis. That piece of metal probably does not have a 90º edge, and the edge is tilted relative to the ski. Look up edge bevels for an explanation. There's the base bevel and the side bevel. You don't currently know what bevels they put on your skis. The shop guys said they tuned "to factory specs." That phrase implies that the factory has a base bevel and a side bevel that they always use for this ski, which is probably true, and that those are published so that the stop guys know what it is, but this is questionable. The guys probably lied. So ignore this; it means nothing.

--You did not ask for specific bevels for the base and the side. It would be good to know what they used, and in the future always ask for specific base and edge bevels when you get these tuned. So when you take the skis to the next shop, ask them to check and tell you what the current bevels are, and if they are consistent from tip to tail. They may be reluctant to do this, but press them. If the bevels aren't consistent, that could be a major problem. If they are, then no problem with consistency, but maybe you don't want those bevels. I doubt the bevels, unless they are really inconsistent, caused the problems you described.

--Typical bevels are 1º base and 2º edge bevels. But there are lots of other combinations. When you get these tuned again, discuss what two bevels will be best. They can change what the previous shop did, or repeat it. Trust the shop techs about what bevels to use, if you like the way they treat you, and remember what the bevels are so you can always ask for those degrees in the future.

--How the skis are sharpened matters. If the process leaves little "burrs" along the edges, they will rip your skin roughly when you rub your fingers along the edges. If you look closely with a magnifying glass, you will see the edges are bumpy. This should not be the case. They edges should be sharp but smooth. The skis will grip too much if there are burrs, and could send you straight across the trail if you're in the back seat. Ask the shop you take them to if there are burrs along the edges. If yes, that could be your problem. If not, look elsewhere for the cause of the skis' misbehavior.

--Tuning to "factory specs" has nothing to do with "detuning." "Detuning" means someone, after sharpening the skis from tip to tail, unsharpened the tip and tail. How far they ran a tool along those edges towards the middle of the skis to remove the sharpness matters. Most shops will detune unless you tell them not to. People who ski on hard snow and know how to carve like the edges sharp all the way to the ends of the skis. But many people don't like that because the skis grip when they don't expect them to, so detuning works for them. Unsharp edges, which were detuned too far, will not grip. So a shop can detune too much, or too little. I'm guessing (guessing) you would benefit from a bit of detuning, just the right amount. Too much detuning would cause the skis to not grip well on hard snow.

--The black base has a structure applied to it, a pattern of tiny indents put in it, to help it glide. The wrong structure can make a ski refuse to turn. As in REFUSE to turn. Ask the new shop to look at the structure and tell you if there's a problem with it. If they say yes, then there's your problem.

There may be other things that could have gone wrong with that tune. Others here may be able to alert you to more potential problems. Tuning is complicated.

Finding out what went wrong when you take it in to the next place will leave you fully confident that the situation can be brought under your control in the future. I'd ask all those questions and take notes as they answer.

So sorry to hear of this mistreatment you got. So typical.
 
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Roseskier

Diva in Training
You know what's funny, the second guy also made sure to tell me he was a ski instructor on that very mountain for 15 years. Told me I shouldn't be going down blacks but to stay on greens and blues and work on my technique.


THIS MAKES ME SO MAD!!! Same thing happened when a local shop tuned MY VOLKL KENJAS! They are 2017 kenjas, and I had been skiing them for years without issue. Took them in to be tuned, and felt like I couldn't ski! Took them to a different shop, guy said they hadn't been de-tuned properly. He fixed them right up in about 15 mins. I have had them tuned again since, and they were fine that time. Some idiot messed up your skis (but don't worry they can be fixed), and is blaming you for their incompetence. Infuriates me!
 

GlassFast

Diva in Training
Wow
I've also had this happen. It's definitely the tune. There are a bunch of things that can go wrong with a tune. When they go wrong, the skier thinks it's them until they understand what exactly happened. This has happened to me several times, and it sounds like it's happened to others posting here as well.

--The black base must be flat. Someone should check with a "true bar" to make sure it's flat. If it's not flat, the edge bevels can change from tip to tail. Ask the shop where you have it worked on this time to check and tell you if the bases are flat. If they aren't, that might be your problem right there.

--There are two bevels put on the metal edges of your skis. That piece of metal probably does not have a 90º edge, and the edge is tilted relative to the ski. Look up edge bevels for an explanation. There's the base bevel and the side bevel. You don't currently know what bevels they put on your skis. The shop guys said they tuned "to factory specs." That phrase implies that the factory has a base bevel and a side bevel that they always use for this ski, which is probably true, and that those are published so that the stop guys know what it is, but this is questionable. The guys probably lied. So ignore this; it means nothing.

--You did not ask for specific bevels for the base and the side. It would be good to know what they used, and in the future always ask for specific base and edge bevels when you get these tuned. So when you take the skis to the next shop, ask them to check and tell you what the current bevels are, and if they are consistent from tip to tail. They may be reluctant to do this, but press them. If the bevels aren't consistent, that could be a major problem. If they are, then no problem with consistency, but maybe you don't want those bevels. I doubt the bevels, unless they are really inconsistent, caused the problems you described.

--Typical bevels are 1º base and 2º edge bevels. But there are lots of other combinations. When you get these tuned again, discuss what two bevels will be best. They can change what the previous shop did, or repeat it. Trust the shop techs about what bevels to use, if you like the way they treat you, and remember what the bevels are so you can always ask for those degrees in the future.

--How the skis are sharpened matters. If the process leaves little "burrs" along the edges, they will rip your skin roughly when you rub your fingers along the edges. If you look closely with a magnifying glass, you will see the edges are bumpy. This should not be the case. They edges should be sharp but smooth. The skis will grip too much if there are burrs, and could send you straight across the trail if you're in the back seat. Ask the shop you take them to if there are burrs along the edges. If yes, that could be your problem. If not, look elsewhere for the cause of the skis' misbehavior.

--Tuning to "factory specs" has nothing to do with "detuning." "Detuning" means someone, after sharpening the skis from tip to tail, unsharpened the tip and tail. How far they ran a tool along those edges towards the middle of the skis to remove the sharpness matters. Most shops will detune unless you tell them not to. People who ski on hard snow and know how to carve like the edges sharp all the way to the ends of the skis. But many people don't like that because the skis grip when they don't expect them to, so detuning works for them. Unsharp edges, which were detuned too far, will not grip. So a shop can detune too much, or too little. I'm guessing (guessing) you would benefit from a bit of detuning, just the right amount. Too much detuning would cause the skis to not grip well on hard snow.

--The black base has a structure applied to it, a pattern of tiny indents put in it, to help it glide. The wrong structure can make a ski refuse to turn. As in REFUSE to turn. Ask the new shop to look at the structure and tell you if there's a problem with it. If they say yes, then there's your problem.

There may be other things that could have gone wrong with that tune. Others here may be able to alert you to more potential problems. Tuning is complicated.

Finding out what went wrong when you take it in to the next place will leave you fully confident that the situation can be brought under your control in the future. I'd ask all those questions and take notes as they answer.

So sorry to hear of this mistreatment you got. So typical.

Wow thank you for this! I'm going to print this out and take it with me. Never again! I'm going to learn every detail about tuning now and i'm going to make sure the tech shows me and explains to me what happened and how they will fix. I HATE not understanding something but hate even more when I ask for help to learn and am brushed off. I mean I still don't even know what the did to my skis.

I looked over the edges and nothing jumped out at me. But I dont have good light right now. I could see the bevel. But the thing that concerns me the most is that I looked on the base and I couldnt see anything--a pattern like another poster showed in a photo. I will check again in the morning with sunlight. My skis got a quick wax on the mountain but only after a few hours of use they look super ... parched or dry. I'll take a picture in the AM if I still can't see a pattern. To my untrained eyes, the bases look and feel different than before.
 

GlassFast

Diva in Training
So. Just so I’m understaning:

You’ve been skiing for years and working on your skills.
You researched your ski decision, bought skis that were suitable to your skills/style, and used them successfully.
You paid these assholes for service.
They messed up their service.
And then blamed you?

I am seeing red FOR you. From the comments above, I anticipate that you can get your problem solved for the skis. You know that they will never get your business again.

And also, I hope you absolutely eviscerate them in your 1 star review.
Thank you for this. Really helps to be heard. I woke up this morning unable to sleep because I just KNEW I wasn't crazy. And yet here were all these ex-ski instructors telling me I was. And I let myself believe them. I've read on another post that male skiers overestimate themselves and female skiers underestimate themselves. I'm definitely the later. And I learned later in life so i've always felt like a bit of an outsider/newbie. Need to trust my gut!!
 

skibum4ever

Angel Diva
@GlassFast welcome to the Forum. Footloose is a great shop. I'm sure they will get you back to normal.

Enjoy your Mammoth trip. Snow should be quite good and the weather looks great this week.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
What @liquidfeet posted is spot on and a great explanation!

How dare the instructors give unsolicited skiing technique not having watched you ski. Grrrrr.... I do give spoken advice to friends sight unseen but only if they describe the specific problem. Tails washing out could in some cases be the opposite fix of what they suggested.

The last thing that came to mind, as it happened to my student yesterday, but was likely not your issue, was ice build up on the bases. When the temps are just right, well wrong, after a snow storm and skis are placed in the gondola racks the snow sometimes melts on the bases at the bottom and freezes by the top. She skied one run then sheepishly asked if powder skis are super slow. Yikes. Yes, when the bases are covered in ice patches they sure are.

My point is that large, but even, tiny changes to our gear result in huge changes in how we experience the feel of the gear.

Trust the change you felt, don't despair, as they can do a full base grind if necessary, but I doubt they'll have to, and go to the shop that will keep working with you until you get the base grind, edge tune and detune, wax job you enjoy skiing on just right.

Oh yeah, and some people probably are best suited to sniffing wax fumes in a ski tune shop all night by themselves for a living, sorry you landed on one of those. As for the instructor, I am sorry. Most of us are better than that.
 

GlassFast

Diva in Training
@contesstant @liquidfeet I've got some pics for you. I'm starting to think maybe it's base structure. They're really really dry looking. I can't see any base structure and i've tried in all kinds of light.
 

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WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@GlassFast im sure Footloose will be able to fix. If you purchased there and you paid for the "ski prep" they will know exactly how the ski was tuned. If Robert (french pronounced robear) is in even better. You should not get any mansplaing from anyone working there. Enjoy your trip.
 

Iwannaski

Angel Diva
I am a newbie but did they not wax that ski? Shouldn’t it look different?
 

elemmac

Angel Diva
I'm starting to think maybe it's base structure. They're really really dry looking. I can't see any base structure and i've tried in all kinds of light.

A base grind and structure is normally not included in a “basic” tuneup. So it depends on what you paid for. Most basic tunes are a wax and sharpen. If the skis are looking dry, there’s a chance they didn’t wax them (or just did a bad job). But if you were skiing them before, it probably wouldn’t be too noticeable.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
I thought that too, but she did ski on them....but there should still be some wax....
 

GlassFast

Diva in Training
A base grind and structure is normally not included in a “basic” tuneup. So it depends on what you paid for. Most basic tunes are a wax and sharpen. If the skis are looking dry, there’s a chance they didn’t wax them (or just did a bad job). But if you were skiing them before, it probably wouldn’t be too noticeable.
I had a gouge, a dent, and some jagged edges. The owner at the show didnt even discuss with me what kind of tune. He just looked them over, saw the imperfections and said he'll have them all sorted. I paid $65. So I assume that was a full-service tune. To this day I still don't know what they did because they wouldn't tell me. When I took the skis back, I kept asking what they did. Over and over I was told the edges are sharp, the edges are sharp. But they did do base work because the dent and gouge are gone.
 

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