My day of dorsiflexion: Demo Marker bindings!!!

[SnowHot]

Here is another article we did...

What Does It Take To Demo a Ski Properly?

I cannot count how many times it has been posted here, there, and everywhere: You must DEMO DEMO DEMO DEMO before you buy. So, what can you learn from demoing a ski? Well, let's talk about what it takes to demo skis properly. “If you don’t know...

www.skitalk.com

 

[mustski]

Phil and I literally take a micrometer to the intro shows for gear and measure every one we get our hands on.
If you could be a fly on the wall watching the process, you'd be amazed at how we(but especially he) nerds out on this stuff.

And I am so grateful that you all provide this resource!

 

[lisamamot]

How are you all measuring the toe and heel piece to determine delta? I'd be curious to see what my bindings are and how much they differ from each other between my two sets of skis.

Oh, nooooo, I don't measure! I use the binding charts from SkiTalk, lol.

 

[mustski]

Oh, nooooo, I don't measure! I use the binding charts from SkiTalk, lol.

Exactly, the only time I measure is if the binding is not on one of the charts.

 

[tinymoose]

@mustski posted the links from SkiTalk on page 2 of this thread

Comparison Review - 2024 Salomon/Atomic/Armada Bindings

MODEL TOE HEIGHT (mm) HEEL HEIGHT (mm) SETTING RANGE WEIGHT (g/pr) STANDARD BRAKE SIZES (mm) OPTIONAL BRAKE SIZES (mm) SOLE COMPATIBILITY Stage GW 10 14 18 3-10 1780 80, 90, 100 DIN, GripWalk Stage GW 11 18 18 3.5-11 1780 90, 100, 115 DIN, GripWalk Warden MNC 11 21 26.5 3.5-11 1990 90...

www.skitalk.com

Ah thank you. Sorry about that. Been so busy I've just been skimming along.

 

[WaterGirl]

BUMP. For the past two seasons I have been running 2 skis with Squires that have 4mm shim (2x 2mm) = + 1 mm (ish), and 2 skis with the negative Delta Marker (1) System and (1) Demo binding and a Marker Alpinist 10 = 2mm for my backcountry binding, I need to make some decisions. I had one shop that did the shimming on Marker Squires on the two skis. I will have to check to see if they will again. I spoke w/ my regular shop last Fall and they said they would do it too, until their insurance changed, and apparently altering the Squire with shims = no warranty, so no go.

I'm contemplating trying to get my ski binding delta consistent. Price is not an issue. I will remount or retire what skis I have depending on re-mountablity. I'm good with my Backcountry set up, love my La Sportive Vanguard boot (under rated) and the Alpinist binding combo. I would like to run the same binding on all my alpine skis, I like the lightness of the Squire 1540g, they are ok for me, never had any issues. If they were able to be shimmed by my regular shop I would still be doing it. Looking for the 1-2mm Delta difference.

I'm curious what others are doing to try to get to the least amount of delta in a binding:
@edelweissmaedl @contesstant @MissySki @mustski @DebbieSue

Is anyone shimming their bindings? if so what brand, and are you using the brands shims or making your own? Are your shops still doing this? Does it affect your torque testing?

The Squire demos. Heavy. And not much room to move around b/c I'm at 265 BSL and I can't convince the shop to mount a little "different" so I get more than one extra setting to play with. I don't know if I'm still in love with the -1 negative. I have this on a 98 and my Blizzard Phoenix. I like it more on the Phoenix? Spent more time on the shimmed skis this season, but did get on the 98s last weekend and wasn't sure I was in love with the negative b/c my boot set up currently is working really well with the shimmed bindings at +1.

Is the Look Pivot really 1mm? According to SkiTalk (@SnowHot thank you so much for the great resources on binding data) they are not, they are 2.5. And heavy. 2290g (13) And have limited brake widths for anything less than a mid fat. Looking to replace my 88 this year not sure I want 95 brake arms that point out. Did I mention they are heavy? Unless I get the Pivot 11 which was new for last season, not sure if its this or the 13.

What about the Salmon Strive bindings 12 or 14? According to SkiTalk 3.5mm delta, (12) 1840g/ (14) 1960. Better than 5mm of the non shimmed squire, but not 1mm or 2mm. Better brake options for the 88/98 skis. Since they run same delta w/ the demo vs consumer I can demo these bindings I guess next year.

Any other bindings I'm missing that are at least under 3mm ish...?

I appreciate all the input from other Divas!

 

[SnowHot]

Note: I am posting this with Phil over my shoulder.

Is anyone shimming their bindings? if so what brand, and are you using the brands shims or making your own? Are your shops still doing this? Does it affect your torque testing?

Tyrolia is the easiest to change delta on. They offer a multitude of shim options from 1mm-6mm. While they are designed to work with their race toes, all of their toes have the same hole pattern so they can work with the Attack toe. Once you get past a 2mm shim you will need to get longer screws. A good race shop like a Start Haus will stock these. The shim kits do come with the correct length screws. It will not affect torque testing.

I would suggest looking at the Attack 12, although the 11 might be lighter, the 12 has a far superior heel. The 4mm of delta can be adjusted by the right shop.

Is the Look Pivot really 1mm? According to SkiTalk (@SnowHot thank you so much for the great resources on binding data) they are not, they are 2.5.

As we publish on Skitalk and as Look publishes in their tech catalog it is 2.5mm delta. We are not sure where the 1 mm you refer to here and on SkiTalk is coming from.

And heavy. 2290g (13) And have limited brake widths for anything less than a mid fat. Looking to replace my 88 this year not sure I want 95 brake arms that point out. Did I mention they are heavy? Unless I get the Pivot 11 which was new for last season, not sure if its this or the 13.

If weight is a concern (which it should only be in carrying the skis) take a look at the Pivot 11 which shaves over 200g off. I have these on my Black Pearls. Also consider that because of it's inherently design, the Pivot has the lowest rotation weight of any binding so while it might weigh a but more, it skis lighter.

I don't know if I'm still in love with the -1 negative.

but did get on the 98s last weekend and wasn't sure I was in love with the negative b/c my boot set up currently is working really well with the shimmed bindings at +1.

I get dozens of skis every season, with deltas of +5 to -2 and I figure it out, you and I are not that different in ability, I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be, considering that snow conditions are variable getting all your set ups within 2mm +/- is about as good as you can expect.

 

[WaterGirl]

Note: I am posting this with Phil over my shoulder.

Tyrolia is the easiest to change delta on. They offer a multitude of shim options from 1mm-6mm. While they are designed to work with their race toes, all of their toes have the same hole pattern so they can work with the Attack toe. Once you get past a 2mm shim you will need to get longer screws. A good race shop like a Start Haus will stock these. The shim kits do come with the correct length screws. It will not affect torque testing.

I would suggest looking at the Attack 12, although the 11 might be lighter, the 12 has a far superior heel. The 4mm of delta can be adjusted by the right shop.


As we publish on Skitalk and as Look publishes in their tech catalog it is 2.5mm delta. We are not sure where the 1 mm you refer to here and on SkiTalk is coming from.

Thank you Tricia for the intel, That chart is sooooo helpful.

So the Squires have the "Marker shims," they fit the toe screw pattern of all Royal Toes and I have the correct screws. No one wants to shim these for liability purposes even though they are Marker and after a call in to Marker by one shop it was highly discouraged and they declined to do it. To be honest, I had the shims put on two skis which tested out equally prior to shimming, and then after the shims were installed I had them tested at two different shops and the heels come out higher. I will ask if the shop will work on the Tyrolia bindings but I suspect the answer is the same. I need to find the "right shop" if I'm going to continue to shim. I do have questions about whether shimming alters the release. With all the hassle I was thinking easier to just find the lowest delta binding an run with it on all my skis.

As far as the "1mm" Pivot claim, the shops, the internet, the on line retailers all talk about the Pivot being 'almost neutral' at 1 mm. I guess it's just a rumor, and I appreciate the testing that you and Phil do, b/c everyone claims it's 1mm ;). I am curious about the 11 vs the 13. I would appreciate any intel on the difference other than weight.

As to why I want to lower/ unify the delta, according to two very respected boot fitters, one you know, I am a unicorn with my excessive dorsiflexion. I am not hyper mobile anywhere else. More upright makes it easier for me to not have to hold myself up while skiing. After all the boot drama and figuring out the delta I am now skiing more effortlessly, and skiing is fun!

Weight? my knees on repeated chair 23 rides appreciate the lighter set ups ;) that's all, I guess I might have to ride the Gondola more......

I agree about getting to 2ish would be great. I just want to make things easier. I need to replace my much loved 88 and I also need a new mid fat. Just trying to figure out options on bindings, if possible I wanted to remount one of my old skis with which ever binding I will be going forward with on the new skis to make sure that's what will work.

Again thanks to you and Phil for the great info!

 

[SnowHot]

So the Squires have the "Marker shims," they fit the toe screw pattern of all Royal Toes and I have the correct screws. No one wants to shim these for liability purposes even though they are Marker and after a call in to Marker by one shop it was highly discouraged and they declined to do it. To be honest, I had the shims put on two skis which tested out equally prior to shimming, and then after the shims were installed I had them tested at two different shops and the heels come out higher. I will ask if the shop will work on the Tyrolia bindings but I suspect the answer is the same. I need to find the "right shop" if I'm going to continue to shim. I do have questions about whether shimming alters the release. With all the hassle I was thinking easier to just find the lowest delta binding an run with it on all my skis.

I can see that. In today's litigious world ... even being 100% in the right costs time and money in a lawsuit ;) and it is not worth the $50 mount if someone gets hurt even if the binding performs within it's limits. But I am not telling you anything that you don't know .

As far as the "1mm" Pivot claim, the shops, the internet, the on line retailers all talk about the Pivot being 'almost neutral' at 1 mm. I guess it's just a rumor, and I appreciate the testing that you and Phil do, b/c everyone claims it's 1mm ;). I am curious about the 11 vs the 13. I would appreciate any intel on the difference other than weight.

Phil and I tend not to go by what everyone else says just because everyone else says it. ;) The 11 toe is a little more compact and lighter there is no difference in performance that average Divas like you and I until we might get to a ski over 110mm underfoot.

 

[WaterGirl]

Thank you for verifying what I was thinking, 11 would be fine for 88/98. I was however, thinking of mounting my powder ski with the 13 lol. Its the only ski that I have one mount, no shims, and wish it was a little bit 'back' from where it is now, soooo would make sense to throw a 13 on it and see how I like it if I can get it will work............ Thanks for verifying

and I really appreciate you posting the chart from Look, if I'm going to throw down $$$ to re-mount I want to make sure I'm understanding what I'm getting into.

 

[DebbieSue]

@WaterGirl
I’m replying to your bump post #66, upthread.
When I started this thread few years ago I had observed that I like maybe +1- +2.5 delta, after struggling a bit w Marker demo bindings and their negative delta. I have long femurs and low to moderate range dorsiflexion. Opposite you, I think.

Since then I have learned more about my ankles and boots and insoles in my quest to carve and particularly get on my inside foot LTE at the top of the turn. I now keep the clog loose and the cuff firm with my custom pedorthist insoles, and this allows me to stay out of pronation which limits my foot inversion due to odd navicular anatomy, blah, blah.
This past May I demo’d a pair of Mantra 84W with marker Squire demo bindings. I hesitated because I thought I didn’t like Marker demos and neg delta. Well, I got on them and loved, loved them. Skied confidently and better than ever on them. I bought that exact pair because I didn’t want to mess with anything. I have not verified the negative delta on them….

What I can say is that I thought I was a low positive delta person, but now I’m not sure.
As my skiing has evolved, with better understanding of what I’m supposed to do and can do with my feet and ankles, I think the negative delta and deliberate dorsiflexion helps me stack up better and get out over my skis and get more upper/lower body separation. I’m starting to wonder if neg delta is good generally for women and our lower center of gravity regardless of femur:tib proportions.
In any case….skiing is fun!

 

[WaterGirl]

Thanks @DebbieSue for your reply, I think you touched on an important factor - "evolving" and understanding of what works best. It is a journey. I'm happy you picked up that pair of Mantras in May!
I will be doing a lot of demoing next season but I was really hoping to find a solution to lowering my delta.
I could go back to a race boot with a lifter but I didn't particularly get along with the geometry or fixed internal canting of race boots.

So unfortunately while looking at Phil's chart from look to review the brake widths, I realized the Pivot 11 does NOT have a 2.5 delta. it has a 5. So the Pivot 11 is not a solution.......

The Pivot 11's have a different height 19-14 = 5mm. :( vs Pivot 13 on up 19-16.5 = 2.5 .

I am trying to make skiing even more fun, and skiing with less delta takes less effort..... no need to hold myself.

 

[contesstant]

I'm still delta sensitive but have found 2mm is tolerable and I can adapt. Anything more than that and I am fighting to relax. Look SPX had a 2mm difference but I don't know if they still do. I also feel more "stacked" with system bindings on narrow skis overall which tend to be fairly delta-neutral.

I went back to my "race" boots mid-season (Redster Sti 110) as the fit of the boot is FAR more important overall and I truly need the tiniest shell possible. A recreational low volume boot is not narrow enough, as much as I love the comfort. The delay in edge engagement in a 98mm wide boot with my itty bitty, hypermobile ankles is very noticeable. My feet/ankles tip but nothing happens with the ski, because my foot and ankle would tip and just roll inside the boot. This is why I have a tendency to "park and ride" my turns. I was always fighting to get balanced. This is a much bigger issue than binding delta, but delta is still an issue especially since I'm in a 22.5 boot.

The other bummer is that many demo bindings and their stack height on wider skis also throw me off.

 

[MissySki]

BUMP. For the past two seasons I have been running 2 skis with Squires that have 4mm shim (2x 2mm) = + 1 mm (ish), and 2 skis with the negative Delta Marker (1) System and (1) Demo binding and a Marker Alpinist 10 = 2mm for my backcountry binding, I need to make some decisions. I had one shop that did the shimming on Marker Squires on the two skis. I will have to check to see if they will again. I spoke w/ my regular shop last Fall and they said they would do it too, until their insurance changed, and apparently altering the Squire with shims = no warranty, so no go.

I'm contemplating trying to get my ski binding delta consistent. Price is not an issue. I will remount or retire what skis I have depending on re-mountablity. I'm good with my Backcountry set up, love my La Sportive Vanguard boot (under rated) and the Alpinist binding combo. I would like to run the same binding on all my alpine skis, I like the lightness of the Squire 1540g, they are ok for me, never had any issues. If they were able to be shimmed by my regular shop I would still be doing it. Looking for the 1-2mm Delta difference.

I'm curious what others are doing to try to get to the least amount of delta in a binding:
@edelweissmaedl @contesstant @MissySki @mustski @DebbieSue

Is anyone shimming their bindings? if so what brand, and are you using the brands shims or making your own? Are your shops still doing this? Does it affect your torque testing?

The Squire demos. Heavy. And not much room to move around b/c I'm at 265 BSL and I can't convince the shop to mount a little "different" so I get more than one extra setting to play with. I don't know if I'm still in love with the -1 negative. I have this on a 98 and my Blizzard Phoenix. I like it more on the Phoenix? Spent more time on the shimmed skis this season, but did get on the 98s last weekend and wasn't sure I was in love with the negative b/c my boot set up currently is working really well with the shimmed bindings at +1.

Is the Look Pivot really 1mm? According to SkiTalk (@SnowHot thank you so much for the great resources on binding data) they are not, they are 2.5. And heavy. 2290g (13) And have limited brake widths for anything less than a mid fat. Looking to replace my 88 this year not sure I want 95 brake arms that point out. Did I mention they are heavy? Unless I get the Pivot 11 which was new for last season, not sure if its this or the 13.

What about the Salmon Strive bindings 12 or 14? According to SkiTalk 3.5mm delta, (12) 1840g/ (14) 1960. Better than 5mm of the non shimmed squire, but not 1mm or 2mm. Better brake options for the 88/98 skis. Since they run same delta w/ the demo vs consumer I can demo these bindings I guess next year.

Any other bindings I'm missing that are at least under 3mm ish...?

I appreciate all the input from other Divas!

So I am still using the Squire demo... I really do not find them to be heavy...

That being said, even the negative delta there isn't enough. While it feels good balance wise, my instructors have found that I am really "stuck" in terms of being able to get taller on my skis. I don't have as much range of motion as they want, and I can also see the benefits it would give me in bumps and off piste in general, because I am stuck in certain angles created by boots and bindings. I physically cannot get the extension they want me to... this culminated last season when my instructor asked if he could touch my leg and show me how he wanted me to have my leg... and he's like stand up more and I'm like I CAN'T, I LITERALLY CANNOT lengthen my leg any further than where it is right now. He thought it meant my boots had too much forward lean, but bootfitter confirmed as I already knew that it wasn't that, it's just how my long lower leg interacts with any boot. Perhaps it would be different in a taller boot, but there is not much in the way of options for me there given my foot size. At the very end of last season we added substantial shims under my front bindings, I'll have to take a picture. They are certainly not standard. Unfortunately, it was on the last day I skied of the season... and they did feel more upright... but it was hard for me to get an overall sense on things in the soft mucky spring snow to tell overall if I was going to like it or not. Though nothing felt bad per se. So, I will be feeling them out more when next season starts to see if I like it and want to add to other skis or if it's too much etc. I'll provide feedback when that happens.

But I guess the takeaway in this case is, yes shops are still shimming bindings and it is seemingly very doable. He had even told me they can custom make shims if needed for different larger sizes. This is a shop near my home mountain that deals with a lot of racers etc., so this might not be the stance of a more general shop? I am actually not sure if the torque testing was impacted by this installation, I will ask about this when I get back up this season as well.

 

[BlizzardBabe]

This discussion spurred me to do some research on my quiver:

- Volkl Blaze 86 (Marker Squire 11, +5mm delta)
- Volkl Blaze 93 (Tyrolia Attack 12, +5 delta)
- Fischer Ranger 84 (Marker Squire 11, +5mm delta)
- Stockli AS (Salomon Strive 13D, +3.5mm delta)
- Blizzard Thunderbird R14 CA Sport (TP 11 Light, +3mm) (not skied yet)

The two skis that I think ski similar to one another are the Blaze 86 and the Ranger 84. I'm not surprised that they have the same binding.

The ski I spent the most time on last season was the AS. Instructors thought my position and balance on them was excellent.

The ski that gives me the most confidence and that I feel most comfortable on is the Blaze 86.

My uninformed conclusion is that I'm good with a delta anywhere from +3.5 to +5mm. That said, I don't know if I'd be more comfortable on something lower. It makes me yearn for a clinic where, like competitive skiers, I could get a serious assessment to really learn what suits my anatomy and skills.

 

[VickiK]

Dunno, to me it sounds like you're well informed, @BlizzardBabe . I know nothing about my bindings. Maybe I should follow your example and do a deep dive.

 

[SnowHot]

To be honest, I demo so many skis with so many set ups that I seem to have become imune to delta in various bindings.

 

[HuntersEmma57]

To be honest, I demo so many skis with so many set ups that I seem to have become imune to delta in various bindings.

I read several posts trying understand dorsiflexion or why it's important. I utterly failed. Since I'm skiing well and comfortably (as one can be in ski boots) and have only used Marker Griffons (over a few dozen pairs of skis over 20 years - narrow to fat, short to long, powder to carvers), I'm just going to count myself lucky! I also cross-country ski and love the free heels.

 

[MissySki]

To be honest, I demo so many skis with so many set ups that I seem to have become imune to delta in various bindings.

Were you ever particular about it though? Most people don’t seem to even notice delta. However, if you have certain anatomical qualities like I do? I notice delta as soon as I step into a binding literally. Not consciously and not because I want to, that’s for sure lol. It’s a major pita (well it was before I understood why certain binding felt great and others felt terrible for my ability to balance over skis) I would very much prefer not to notice it…

 

[BlizzardBabe]

I can’t say whether I notice it or not. I think I’d have to be on the same ski, same day, same conditions, with different bindings to know if it makes a noticeable difference in my skiing. I’d also probably need a trained eye to assess any changes.

I watched a video not too long ago where the presenters were discussing a young racer kid who switched skis and suddenly was skiing like a different person. The skis, while from two different companies, were not so different in performance attributes that it should have made such a stark contrast in his skiing. After a thorough diagnosis, they discovered that the binding delta was very different on the second pair of skis. It just positioned him better and resulted in surprisingly stronger performance.