My day of dorsiflexion: Demo Marker bindings!!!

[mustski]

I am lacking in knowledge about this. Can anyone suggest a resource?

For a number of years, the Marker Royal line of bindings have had a heel that was really difficult to click into. Over the years, Marker has made adjustments to the heel but some have just remained sticky. However, recently, they put out an additions to the Royal line adding a TCX heel. That is a smooth easy heel to click into.

Delta angle refers to the difference in height between the heel and toe of the bindings. What is crazy is that the delta of a demo binding from a particular model does not necessarily match the delta angle from the same binding non demo version.

For some other crazy reason, delta angle is not included in the binding information from the manufacturer. You have to manually measure it yourself which means you have to have the binding in your possession or convince the salesperson to measure it for you. No, they usually have no clue about this either!

Philpug (@SnowHot husband) has taken the time to write up these comparisons. I’ve linked to them before. @RachelV is there a way to create a sticky that links to
Tyrolia
Salomon, Atomic, Armada
Marker
Look

 

[liquidfeet]

....Here's a question for the experts . . . are women more sensitive to binding delta than men? Is it shorter BSL? Q(uadriceps)-angle? Just wondering. . . .

I think part of this issue has to do with where on the body most women carry a lot of their weight, compared to most men.

Our weight is focused in the hips area, men's weight is focused up in the chest/torso area (generally). Messing with delta moves the CoM fore and aft, so different amounts of delta are going to have different effects depending on whether the more weight is in the hips or chest.

 

[DebbieSue]

I think part of this issue has to do with where on the body most women carry a lot of their weight, compared to most men.

Our weight is focused in the hips area, men's weight is focused up in the chest/torso area (generally). Messing with delta moves the CoM fore and aft, so different amounts of delta are going to have different effects depending on whether the more weight is in the hips or chest.

Makes sense…more to ponder…

 

[skinnyfootskis]

A couple thoughts/observations: When I swap skis out periodically (as in, sometimes daily) it does keep me on my game a bit better for whatever reason. If I ski my Rossi Experience 82ti, which are long at 167 but smooth as all get out, then get on my Nela 88s, the Nela feel like little sports cars in comparison. Yet, I love both skis.

Binding delta plays a huge role for women in particular, and I know many of you are familiar with my struggles with this, especially when testing skis in the past for SkiTalk. There were some skis that I could not give a fair assessment to because the bindings had so much angle to them.

Here's the interesting part: Since I got into my new Lange's this season, which are the smallest boot I've ever been in at a 261 BLS but have the short cuff (SC) I am MUCH less sensitive to delta. I have short tibias and long femurs. I also barely skied my Nela's last season because the boots I was in were likely too stiff and I could not access the full length of the ski. I would also get quad burn on a binding with more delta. Not anymore.

The Nela's have a Warden 11 binding on them (5mm higher heel.) The Experience 82s have the system binding on them which is essentially flat. I am skiing my new Volkl Blaze 86s today and put Squires on them so we'll see how those feel. I believe they have a 5mm higher heel as well. I might not be able to give a fair assessment until I get them tuned--husband mounted them last night but did not tune them yet. (Thanks to him, I can really feel it when a ski has a nice tune on it vs. a factory tune. I am very spoiled!)

Looking forward to hearing how you skied the Blazes.

 

[WaterGirl]

Here is a great podcast on delta angle

 

[mustski]

GREAT VIDEO! ^^^ This is exactly what I felt the first time I skied the Griffins! I felt like a super hero on snow! I also ski with heel lifts and absolutely need them because of my bone inhibited dorsiflexion. In my new boots, I tried w/out heel lifts and it was terrible on all my skis regardless of the delta angle of the binding. It’s a weird thing. I completely understand that feeling of increased responsiveness. I can ski fine with other delta angles but I don’t feel that on spot sweetness!

To respond a question earlier… women feel it more because we have smaller feet.

I willl bring 2 pairs of skis to Steamboat so if anyone wants to try a flat binding, you can ski my Secrets. They have flat demos with the nice easy TCX heel.

 

[Posse Mama]

Here is a great podcast on delta angle

What a great explanation. Thanks for sharing this link.

 

[lisamamot]

Hmmmm, all this ramp angle conversation is making me wonder about stack heigh too! I use the Tyrolia Attack 12 or 14 on pretty much all my skis although I have the Tyrolia AM12 on my Stocklis and have used the Marker Squire in the past.

The delta on the Attack and Squire are the same at 5mm, but the delta on the AM12 is 8mm. The stack height is 7mm higher on the Squire. I don't have great ankle flexion, so I think the delta is likely good for me.

I am in a size smaller boot since mid last season (24.5 so pretty standard for women) and did initially struggle to get to the front of my ski (Stockli). Watching the video it seems like the higher ramp angle on the AM12, coupled with the smaller BSL, could have been responsible for that and taken some time to adjust to. Well, that and my foot was completely numb, but a boot board grind fixed that.

I am planning to mount up my backup pair of Sheeva 9s and ordered a Squire (price was right, I liked the color). I have skied my current Sheevas with the Attack for years and didn't think much of changing over to a Squire, but now I am wondering if the stack height difference will be noticeable? Must research that now!

 

[DebbieSue]

Hmmmm, all this ramp angle conversation is making me wonder about stack heigh too! I use the Tyrolia Attack 12 or 14 on pretty much all my skis although I have the Tyrolia AM12 on my Stocklis and have used the Marker Squire in the past.

The delta on the Attack and Squire are the same at 5mm, but the delta on the AM12 is 8mm. The stack height is 7mm higher on the Squire. I don't have great ankle flexion, so I think the delta is likely good for me.

I am in a size smaller boot since mid last season (24.5 so pretty standard for women) and did initially struggle to get to the front of my ski (Stockli). Watching the video it seems like the higher ramp angle on the AM12, coupled with the smaller BSL, could have been responsible for that and taken some time to adjust to. Well, that and my foot was completely numb, but a boot board grind fixed that.

I am planning to mount up my backup pair of Sheeva 9s and ordered a Squire (price was right, I liked the color). I have skied my current Sheevas with the Attack for years and didn't think much of changing over to a Squire, but now I am wondering if the stack height difference will be noticeable? Must research that now!

Very interested in your thoughts and observations . . . .keep us posted on how the Sheevas are on Squire vs Attack 12/14.
Stack height . . . yet another variable!

 

[contesstant]

Yep, stack height on my Rossi Experience with the system binding is one of the things that I think makes me not care for them in bumps.

A gazillion variables! I'll throw in there that many women might do well in a shorter cuff boot. Brent Amsbury said he has had a ton of success putting many women in short cuff boots.

 

[WaterGirl]

A gazillion variables!

So true. And it takes so much time to work thru all the variables !
and from what I understand there are more skiers with limited dorsiflexion than excessive.
So if you are on the more excessive end you may not find a fitter who knows exactly what to do......

 

[skinnyfootskis]

Through all those variables and the fact that some of us only ski a week or two a year……it’s a lot to digest.

 

[contesstant]

Through all those variables and the fact that some of us only ski a week or two a year……it’s a lot to digest.

It sure is! I think the best advice I could give to those who ski just a little bit every season is if your feet don't hurt and aren't sliding around in your boots, just go have fun and don't worry about all these other variables.

 

[skinnyfootskis]

Ok, so my Look Express/dynastars are a -2 delta ( rear is 41, front is 43) my new Volkyl Blaze with Markers appear to be +2 ( rear is 48 front is 46). My Dynastar have a front shim. Do these numbers sound right? Anyone else measure their new Blazes? I have not used the Blaze yet. I do not feel balanced on my Dynastars this year and may need some boot tweaking etc….

 

[mustski]

Ok, so my Look Express/dynastars are a -2 delta ( rear is 41, front is 43) my new Volkyl Blaze with Markers appear to be +2 ( rear is 48 front is 46). My Dynastar have a front shim. Do these numbers sound right? Anyone else measure their new Blazes? I have not used the Blaze yet. I do not feel balanced on my Dynastars this year and may need some boot tweaking etc….

Are those measurements in mm? Those numbers sound a bit high. Can you be more specific as to the exact model of bindings? In any case you have a delta angle difference between the 2 pairs of skis of 4 mm, but 2mm (in either direction) is still pretty close to flat. I don't notice the difference when it's still close to flat. Why are the Disasters shimmed?

As to Stack Height (aka Stand Height) ... as a general rule a higher stack height (how far the binding sits off the ski) provides more leverage when edging and is better for on piste skiing. A lower stack height (closer to flat to the ski) is better for off piste skiing and in uneven terrain. As always, anything in between is a trade off for all mountain versatility. Racers like a bit more stack height for that leverage and because they are less likely to "boot out" aggressively carved turns. Some people dislike demo bindings because they increase the stack height and there is a loss in performance in uneven terrain, moguls, the park, etc. I'm not sure that I am either aggressive enough or skillful enough to notice much of a difference in stack height. I sure do notice delta angle though.

 

[contesstant]

Ok, so my Look Express/dynastars are a -2 delta ( rear is 41, front is 43) my new Volkyl Blaze with Markers appear to be +2 ( rear is 48 front is 46). My Dynastar have a front shim. Do these numbers sound right? Anyone else measure their new Blazes? I have not used the Blaze yet. I do not feel balanced on my Dynastars this year and may need some boot tweaking etc….

Remind me if there are any variables that have changed since you last skied the Dynastars? New boots?

 

[skinnyfootskis]

Are those measurements in mm? Those numbers sound a bit high. Can you be more specific as to the exact model of bindings? In any case you have a delta angle difference between the 2 pairs of skis of 4 mm, but 2mm (in either direction) is still pretty close to flat. I don't notice the difference when it's still close to flat. Why are the Disasters shimmed?

As to Stack Height (aka Stand Height) ... as a general rule a higher stack height (how far the binding sits off the ski) provides more leverage when edging and is better for on piste skiing. A lower stack height (closer to flat to the ski) is better for off piste skiing and in uneven terrain. As always, anything in between is a trade off for all mountain versatility. Racers like a bit more stack height for that leverage and because they are less likely to "boot out" aggressively carved turns. Some people dislike demo bindings because they increase the stack height and there is a loss in performance in uneven terrain, moguls, the park, etc. I'm not sure that I am either aggressive enough or skillful enough to notice much of a difference in stack height. I sure do notice delta angle though.

I thought it was high too but he measured where I thought was right and includes the ski! It is the look express system 10 binding that came with my 2019 Dynastar legends. w80.
My boot fitter shimmed to help my “stance”….i have issues feeling pressure under my toes and as I ski toes up and have a hard time weighting the front of my skis. (Not sure I said that correctly)
I know I have had heel wedges but I didn’t like them.

The Volkl blaze skis include the system binding which is a Marker motion 10. Thank you @mustski

 

[skinnyfootskis]

Remind me if there are any variables that have changed since you last skied the Dynastars? New boots?

Nothing, but I have only skied a few hours this season.

 

[tinymoose]

How are you all measuring the toe and heel piece to determine delta? I'd be curious to see what my bindings are and how much they differ from each other between my two sets of skis.

 

[WaterGirl]

@tinymoose see video at 5:00