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More ski resorts going to RFID

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
They have problems reading through the plastic. Rumours abound about gates coming. But it's a union, so that may not happen soon.

At WB you go through the gates anywhere at the bottom and there are employees that verify it's you. You must lift your goggles going through the gate as it sends your picture to a device that the employee sees. Don't think that system would work well at Tremblant, but....5 access points at the bottom of the mountain.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
At Alta, there is a liftie with an iPad looking at the pictures for the people going thru the gates. People are not required to lift goggles. Obviously if something looks odd then the person is asked to step aside. There is enough distance between the RFID gate and the actual loading area to avoid causing a slow down.
 

sibhusky

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
We don't have RFID here. We have lifties with handscanners that usually talk to you. Maybe it's why we get cited every year for being a friendly place? By the end of the season it's actually tough to get them to scan you. They know you and want to wave you through. Okay, well they know me.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
We don't have RFID here. We have lifties with handscanners that usually talk to you. Maybe it's why we get cited every year for being a friendly place?
Alta has had RFID for about 10 years. The lifties talk to people going thru the gates and are friendly.

Having gone to quite a few different places with RFID in more than one region in recent years, I don't think that's a major factor for the overall vibe of a ski resort. It's not just the large ski resorts that have RFID any more. Just spent a day at Waterville Valley in NH, which went to RFID last season. Very friendly place that doesn't get many tourists, has very loyal season pass holders as well day trippers from Boston.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
By the end of the season it's actually tough to get them to scan you. They know you and want to wave you through. Okay, well they know me.

Friendly for sure, but from a management perspective that behavior is hugely consequential human error. Inconsistent scanning can lead to revenue loss and it deprives the resort of valuable data about traffic patterns and usage demographics. Given the grim reality of trying to make a ski resort profitable, those are no small concerns, and it's why even small resorts often opt to invest in gates.
 

sibhusky

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I don't think the lifties care about this, they aren't paid enough. The main lifts you'll get scanned all season. But by April, I'm sure they've got their data. You can't get to these lifts unless you climbed or used the main lift, so the revenue loss would be really minor. They aren't skipping everyone, they're just not rushing to get over there.

Friendly for sure, but from a management perspective that behavior is hugely consequential human error. Inconsistent scanning can lead to revenue loss and it deprives the resort of valuable data about traffic patterns and usage demographics. Given the grim reality of trying to make a ski resort profitable, those are no small concerns, and it's why even small resorts often opt to invest in gates.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Waterville Valley started using RFID last season. What's different is that the technology by Affinity doesn't have to be on a card. Season passholders can get a "helmet sticker" for $10. That means no more worrying about forgetting the RFID card when changing jackets. WV also provides tracking of season stats for passholders.

What's New for the 2018-19 Season

›› GATELESS RFID
Last winter we debuted the new Gateless RFID, developed at Waterville Valley Resort by the Affinity Team, led by Chris Bradford. The new technology eliminated barcode scanning and gate readers, creating more skiing and riding with more direct lift access and less waiting in lines. For this winter we have made updates to the technology by improving readability, eliminating the RFID card deposit, and introducing the Direct-to-Lift (DTL) Reloadable Card. Season pass holders and frequent skier card users will also have the option to upgrade to a helmet sticker. Skiers and riders at Waterville Valley Resort will continue to experience the forefront of innovations to lift access and ticketing this season.
Had a chance to use the Waterville Valley gateless RFID system this season. Certainly was easy from the standpoint of a guest. Didn't notice any helmet stickers but wasn't really looking either.
 

Belgiangirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Well Tremblant has 'hand held readers" the employees did not like my pass in a clear "pass' pocket built in on my coat. One suggested I "cut the plastic' out?? I asked her how would that work better? just scan the bar code please! others were aiming the red laser at my leg! A couple 'got it" and knew me by name and got it the 1st time.

I like the gates w/RIFD no taking your pass out every run (if at a bottom lift)I like that I can leave mine in a pocket by itself and sail thru the gate, yes it means Less employees, (sorry lifties)
We don't have RFID here. We have lifties with handscanners that usually talk to you. Maybe it's why we get cited every year for being a friendly place? By the end of the season it's actually tough to get them to scan you. They know you and want to wave you through. Okay, well they know me.
Very interesting, I've never ever been to a resort where the passes are scanned by hand! the added personal contact would be a bonus to me personally, but isn't it a hassle when things get busy?
As a kid I recall having retractable ski pass holders attached to my ski jacket and scanning the barcode at the gates. Since I started skiing again, all the resorts I've been to used RFID technology, even the smaller ones outside of the Alps. Seems to be the norm here.

Had a chance to use the Waterville Valley gateless RFID system this season. Certainly was easy from the standpoint of a guest. Didn't notice any helmet stickers but wasn't really looking either.
Gateless RFID... Maybe this is a stupid question but how do they check your ticket/stop those without a valid ticket? I'm having a really hard time visualizing what that would look like and Google isn't really helping.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Gateless RFID... Maybe this is a stupid question but how do they check your ticket/stop those without a valid ticket? I'm having a really hard time visualizing what that would look like and Google isn't really helping.
I assume that the RFID signal is transmitted for enough distance that a liftie can be looking at a display as people move into the loading area. Presumably the computer can issue a warning if someone's lift card is not valid. Note it would be different from having a display of a photo for a season pass. For my day ticket at Waterville Valley, no photo was taken. For my Mountain Collective pass at Alta, a photo is taken and is part of my record. However, for a day ticket at Alta there is no photo associated with the RFID card.

Different RFID systems can use different frequencies, which lead to different features. I learned that reading about what Vail did (see Post #42).
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
Tremblant will not go RFID as it would means union jobs. So we have ticket scanners. They are only at bottom lifts. And usually in teams of 2. With the corrals leading in from 2 sides therefore there are 4 people active/lift. Then add in a floater. So, 25 people would be out of work if they go RFID. Union is not going to let that happen.

And yes it can be a sh*t show when things are busy. Mostly because someone doesn't scan properly and the 4some gets screwed up. Or people can't count to 4.

I don't remember gates at the bottom lifts at WB. But it was goggles up as you entered the gondola's/chairs. So there were still jobs at the bottom lifts there. There were people looking at you and a tablet so make sure you were who you scanned as. (WB is unionized too)
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
At Sunapee, they are using Vail's RFID system now. That still means a human scanner but you can have the RFID card in a pocket. There are signs asking guests to point to where their card is located so the scanner can be pointed at the location, which helps speed up the process a bit.

At Big Sky, I could get a 3-day card for the included days for the MCP. Big Sky does manual scanning at the base lifts, so it had to be visible. It was easy to put the card on a jacket just like a lift ticket. When I switched to Ikon for the remaining days, I had to make it available for scanning the bar code. Boyne Resorts is spending major money on lift improvements and other building projects. So not much of a surprise that going to RFID is lower on the priority list. Also there are relatively few base lifts compared to the total number of lifts at Big Sky, so it's not a big deal. A similar situation to Snowbird, which was slow to move to RFID compared to other ski resorts in the SLC area.
 

jmfd84

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
At Sunapee, they are using Vail's RFID system now. That still means a human scanner but you can have the RFID card in a pocket. There are signs asking guests to point to where their card is located so the scanner can be pointed at the location, which helps speed up the process a bit.

This was so strange to me when I skied Sunapee last week. Wachusett has the gates and is the only other place I've skied this winter (back before I had my long ski hiatus, the lift tickets were still stickers on a zipper!).

Every time I went up to a lift at Sunapee, the experience was different. A couple times I wasn't scanned at all, most times I was, and other times it didn't work and I had to take the card out of my pocket. It was definitely not efficient when it got more crowded.
 

sibhusky

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Very interesting, I've never ever been to a resort where the passes are scanned by hand! the added personal contact would be a bonus to me personally, but isn't it a hassle when things get busy?

This is Montana. Busy is relative. The lifties might get their exercise, but on "busy" days there are probably at least four, maybe more, doing crowd control and it's just the last guys walking back and forth as quads are alternated into a single stream. The lift doesn't move any faster on busy days and the ambiance is pretty chill anyway. We don't get that frantic pushing you might see elsewhere. We also don't usually care about empty seats on lifts. It's no biggie, there's another coming along in 5 seconds.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Every time I went up to a lift at Sunapee, the experience was different. A couple times I wasn't scanned at all, most times I was, and other times it didn't work and I had to take the card out of my pocket. It was definitely not efficient when it got more crowded.
My impression is that there is a learning curve during the first season for any RFID system. Not only for the "guests" but also for the lifties.

At Big Sky, there were times that when the line to load was pretty long, with four lines merging from both sides. There were usually 2 scanners (not RFID) working for each entry point into the loading zone and the flow was set up so that the scanning happened well before people were being organized to actually get ready to load the lift. The Targhee main lift loads from two sides, plus has two singles lines, no RFID. There was no delay loading chairs related to scanning.

At Alta, there are always a few folks who get stuck trying to get thru the RFID gate for a variety of reasons. Happens more often during holiday periods and late season when there are more first timers.
 

Belgiangirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I assume that the RFID signal is transmitted for enough distance that a liftie can be looking at a display as people move into the loading area. Presumably the computer can issue a warning if someone's lift card is not valid. Note it would be different from having a display of a photo for a season pass. For my day ticket at Waterville Valley, no photo was taken. For my Mountain Collective pass at Alta, a photo is taken and is part of my record. However, for a day ticket at Alta there is no photo associated with the RFID card.

Different RFID systems can use different frequencies, which lead to different features. I learned that reading about what Vail did (see Post #42).
Thank you- went and read post 42, interesting! RFID technology is very widely used here, I think the most advanced use that I know of are the Tomorrowland bracelets. They're RFID-based and used for everything, from payments to live tracking on the festival terrain. Cool but also a bit scary, the information they can get out of all that raw data goes way beyond what most people realize.

But how would you stop someone without a card from getting on the lift? Facial recognition software that can simultaneously register RFID cards and scan faces and detect when there's a face that doesn't correspond to a card? I really don't think a human can do this accurately within such a short timeframe.

This is Montana. Busy is relative. The lifties might get their exercise, but on "busy" days there are probably at least four, maybe more, doing crowd control and it's just the last guys walking back and forth as quads are alternated into a single stream. The lift doesn't move any faster on busy days and the ambiance is pretty chill anyway. We don't get that frantic pushing you might see elsewhere. We also don't usually care about empty seats on lifts. It's no biggie, there's another coming along in 5 seconds.

Ha! Montana did feel like a really chill place. Still beating myself up that I've been twice but I haven't skied there. :frown:

Tremblant will not go RFID as it would means union jobs. So we have ticket scanners. They are only at bottom lifts. And usually in teams of 2. With the corrals leading in from 2 sides therefore there are 4 people active/lift. Then add in a floater. So, 25 people would be out of work if they go RFID. Union is not going to let that happen.

And yes it can be a sh*t show when things are busy. Mostly because someone doesn't scan properly and the 4some gets screwed up. Or people can't count to 4.

I don't remember gates at the bottom lifts at WB. But it was goggles up as you entered the gondola's/chairs. So there were still jobs at the bottom lifts there. There were people looking at you and a tablet so make sure you were who you scanned as. (WB is unionized too)

I feel as if the absence of actual people scanning tickets is a big factor in why most if not all EU resorts have made the switch to RFID. It's never been a thing over here as far as I know, so the switch wasn't human scanners to RFID gates but rather gates that could scan barcodes to RFID gates. There's no job loss nor resistance from unions.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
But how would you stop someone without a card from getting on the lift? Facial recognition software that can simultaneously register RFID cards and scan faces and detect when there's a face that doesn't correspond to a card? I really don't think a human can do this accurately within such a short timeframe.
Are you asking for places like Waterville Valley using a system without gates? Or places like Alta that have gates, but also have people looking at the photos that are stored for season passes? In either case, I'm guessing the fact that U.S. lifts are loaded based on people queuing in a "maze" of lift lines with employees managing the line may be a factor. By the time someone is about to reach the loading area, the line layout only allows a few people to enter the final section. I haven't skied in Europe but have read about the free-for-all pushing that can happen. Americans complain about waiting in lines, but they are used to the concept. I've traveled in other countries where that's not the case.

There is a small U.S. company that was marketing an RFID system that was supposedly going to use body measurements to validate someone's RFID info as they passed thru a gate. Check out Post #26. The link there changed to https://epc4roi.com/rfid-ski-lift-access/. The info about using body measurements is on the webpage for Upper Mountain Lifts. Not sure where Mountain Pass Systems has their gates installed. The info on their website is the same as two years ago. They might be focused on the other industries in the U.S. moving towards RFID using UFH RFID.
 

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marzNC

Angel Diva
Haven't done any reading about RFID systems for a while. Quite a few places have installed RFID since I started this thread in 2015.

Axess is an Austrian company that has installations at major ski resorts in N. America. They are marketing RFID for "Future-proof system solutions for public transport, sports, leisure and cultural venues." Fair to say that the growing snowsports industry in China is a prime target. The list of installations is global, including China, Japan, New Zealand, but is mostly places in European countries.

SKIDATA is the other major company, and is also Austrian. Aspen (2009) uses SKIDATA, as does Perisher (2011) and Niseko.

The small hills (<200 acres) on the Axess list below include Jiminy Peak, Mont Saint Sauveur, Blue (PA), Catamount, Gunstock, Berkshire East, and Ragged. Alta and Solitude have had RFID for the longest in Utah.
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Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
I'm not sure that the list is correct. Axess is the company that Tremblant uses for the snow school entrance only, at the lifts. It is not for the general public to use. I was skiing with some Camp Fortune people last week and no one mentioned RFID at their place.

If Mont Saint Sauveur has it, then Edelweiss, Morin Heights and all their associated places should have it too. It might just be snow school access like Tremblant's too.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I'm not sure that the list is correct. Axess is the company that Tremblant uses for the snow school entrance only, at the lifts. It is not for the general public to use. I was skiing with some Camp Fortune people last week and no one mentioned RFID at their place.

If Mont Saint Sauveur has it, then Edelweiss, Morin Heights and all their associated places should have it too. It might just be snow school access like Tremblant's too.
Quite possible. The list was clearly put together by marketing staff. They probably don't pay that much attention to the details of what's actually installed.

It also says something that USA and Canada are combined, even though all the countries in Europe are kept separate. That includes European countries that only have one ski resort listed.
 

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