Question: Lessons, season programs and tipping

[B.E.G.]

I think the problem with a percentage is the huge variation in lesson prices at various hills. For example, an all day private lesson here costs $599 +12% HST. No that's not a typo!! A regular adult group lesson is $135 + tax and we have a million products in between. Compare that to BEG's $20 group lessons and we have a problem.... if the instructor at the small $20 hill does an exceptional job, why shouldn't s/he be tipped the same amount as the instructor teaching the $135 lesson?

Unfortunately, I'm poor! However, he did do a great job and I'm either going to track him down next weekend to give him a belated tip (since I couldn't find him after my lesson), or find him at work (since I know where he works and it's in town) and tip him this week.

I'm been tipping around $10 for my lessons but of course, that runs into the disconnect that Mountainxtc just mentioned - $10 is 50% of what my lesson cost, but it's still really cheap considering how much value I get out of it. I don't want to cheap out since they did a great job, but I also can't afford really large tips since my income rests on subbing and I don't work on a consistent basis. Sigh.

 

[KatyPerrey]

Great topic!!
My response will be/is different than the other instructors. I have been teaching/instructing for the last 22 seasons full time (PSIA 3 for 17) and when asked about tips my response is - "Never EXPECTED always APPRECIATED!" I have gotten everything from $5 to $5,000. Tips have also been in the form of gift certificates, bottles of wine, dinners, trips and thank you notes. For me the MOST important thing is not a tip but that they/you come back and ski with me again! That's the most rewarding tip I can receive!!

 

[mountainxtc]

Great topic!!
My response will be/is different than the other instructors. I have been teaching/instructing for the last 22 seasons full time (PSIA 3 for 17) and when asked about tips my response is - "Never EXPECTED always APPRECIATED!"

That's not different at all (IMHO at least), I think I said somewhere above that a tip is just a bonus. My advice addresses what to tip, assuming you have first decided that you want to. Please nobody quote the ASS U ME thing

The only situation where I think it would be strange if you did not tip is for a season long program....

I think I have put more than my $0.02 into this thread now (probably getting close to a buck, and now you all know that I don't make enough to waste it ).... mtnxtc signing out of this one

 

[Mom of Redheads]

One more quick question for the instructors who have replied:

If you don't get a tip, are you more likely to think that:

1) I must not have connected well with this person, so this is a reflection on my teaching;
2) This person may have no clue that ski lessons are something you might consider tipping for, or
3) This person probably only tips wait staff, pizza delivery boys, and cab drivers!

Just curious, because while I tip MORE for a great lesson or when I feel one of my kids has really connected, I still always tip something... even for my last frustrating lesson.

 

[KatyPerrey]

One more quick question for the instructors who have replied:

If you don't get a tip, are you more likely to think that:

1) I must not have connected well with this person, so this is a reflection on my teaching;
2) This person may have no clue that ski lessons are something you might consider tipping for, or
3) This person probably only tips wait staff, pizza delivery boys, and cab drivers!

Just curious, because while I tip MORE for a great lesson or when I feel one of my kids has really connected, I still always tip something... even for my last frustrating lesson.

As I said before I don't expect a tip! but all the things you listed above are valid reasons why someone might not tip. #2 is the main reason someone doesn't tip IMO.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

A view from the cheap seats:
As someone who has vicariously gone through the whole certification process with 2 family members, I can’t begin to even describe the hours, the commitment, the determination - and the EXPENSE. The exam re-takes, the travel to-from. The stress.

And does it make a difference? Well, you decide. These are people who have accumulated a huge wealth of knowledge, and put it to the test: on paper, on snow-with both instruction and free-skiing, had every movement analyzed, critiqued and criticized.

Does this alone make it worthy of a tip? Not necessarily. But the “bag of tricks” accumulated by someone who has gone through this whole process is impressive and extensive.

As an L2 instructor with 27 years’ teaching experience, DH was barely able to earn enough to pay for his gas to-from the resort. And the minimum day commitment for part-time was 45 days. FORTY-FIVE. After 2 years here, he just couldn’t justify it, especially the absolute lack (read: zero) of free ski time. He retired, albeit reluctantly.

He didn’t expect tips; it was a pleasant bonus. But keep in mind that these instructors are NOT well paid generally, especially in view of their ongoing expenses. They do it because they love it. Some of them are actually going out of pocket just to be there.

 

[contesstant]

MountainXTC, you beat me to just this point! First, I have to admit my bias, which is that tipping in general is a subject that just makes me rant. I am on the tipping end, not the getting tipped end, which I am sure colors my opinion. More and more of the "service industry" it seems, is moving into the category of services for which you ought to tip. Except it used to be, tipping "optional." Then, tipping "appreciated." Then, "it is common to tip." Now Litterbug says she hears that 20% is "standard," and I hit the roof! Really? Can't we just determine a value for these services and pay that? I'd rather pay 20% more and not have to think about it, if 20% is so standard that even a mediocre instructor routinely receives 20% just for doing their job in an uninspired fashion. And, offering an instructor feedback through the avenue of tipping is totally meaningless when some people don't tip at all, some people tip regardless because they feel they should, and some people have no idea that tipping is something they should even consider.

So, I kind of think the reverse of MountainXTC's question, and say, why is some resort's $170/hour private so much more expensive than my little hill's $60/private? Is the overall average quality of instruction 3 times better? At least one or two instructors on my hill probably could give an instructor at a big Eastern resort a run for their $$. How much does the resort keep? How much does the instructor get? Perhaps lesson rates should vary according to instructor certification/experience, like at big hair salons? Do you want a certified level 1 instructor? OK, that's a cheaper lesson than if you want a certified level 3 instructor... and so forth.

Last but not least, part of my issue is that many services for which tipping has become standard are "luxury" services to begin with. And the going rate for those services start at expensive and move right on through outrageous, and it's not usually the people performing those services that are getting the bulk of the money. In fact, they are expected to earn a chunk of their salary through tipping. And everyone knows it, which is why the "standard" tip has climbed to 20% or higher. So, adding 20% onto a service that is so expensive to begin with just moves it further and further into the "luxury" category. I have heard people say, if you can't afford to add the tip, then don't buy the service, but if that's the case, increase the price of the service so it's a "real price!"

Rant done.

FWIW, despite my ranting, I do tip, and from what information I can glean, I tip "appropriately"." Between tipping my kids' season-long instructors and the Tremblant lessons they had, I gave close to $700 in tips within the last 9 days! Perhaps that will put my rant in perspective.

A view from the cheap seats:
As someone who has vicariously gone through the whole certification process with 2 family members, I can’t begin to even describe the hours, the commitment, the determination - and the EXPENSE. The exam re-takes, the travel to-from. The stress.

And does it make a difference? Well, you decide. These are people who have accumulated a huge wealth of knowledge, and put it to the test: on paper, on snow-with both instruction and free-skiing, had every movement analyzed, critiqued and criticized.

Does this alone make it worthy of a tip? Not necessarily. But the “bag of tricks” accumulated by someone who has gone through this whole process is impressive and extensive.

As an L2 instructor with 27 years’ teaching experience, DH was barely able to earn enough to pay for his gas to-from the resort. And the minimum day commitment for part-time was 45 days. FORTY-FIVE. After 2 years here, he just couldn’t justify it, especially the absolute lack (read: zero) of free ski time. He retired, albeit reluctantly.

He didn’t expect tips; it was a pleasant bonus. But keep in mind that these instructors are NOT well paid generally, especially in view of their ongoing expenses. They do it because they love it. Some of them are actually going out of pocket just to be there.

And this is why I did tip on our recent Tahoe trip. But boy, it wasn't easy because we are on a budget and skiing is expensive! I did give the fantastic staff at the kids' program at Alpine Meadows a pretty nice tip for both days they had my daughter, who was NOT loving the whole skiing thing. Those girls were fantastic and EARNED their tip.

 

[Skier31]

I am an instructor. I do not expect tips.

Before I became an instructor, I took lots of lessons and have attended ski camps such as epicski academy and others. I understand how expensive lessons are and what a luxury they are. I have taken lessons with instructors who go above and beyond to teach, to share their knowledge, to provide a great learning environment and I have taken lessons from people who are just there for a paycheck.

My greatest pleasure is seeing people enjoy skiing and being a part of that experience.

Unfortuntately, at most resorts, the instructor sees a small part of the cost of the lesson but it is not the obligation of the customer to remedy this problem. I teach part time and it is not my only source of income so this is not an issue for me. The problem is that if resorts don't pay instructors enough to live on, the quality of instruction will suffer at some point. Again, this is not the customer's problem.

Tipping is optional and you should not automatically tip for a lesson.

 

[pinto]

Unfortuntately, at most resorts, the instructor sees a small part of the cost of the lesson but it is not the obligation of the customer to remedy this problem. I teach part time and it is not my only source of income so this is not an issue for me. The problem is that if resorts don't pay instructors enough to live on, the quality of instruction will suffer at some point. Again, this is not the customer's problem.

That's it in a nutshell. Customers shouldn't be expected to make up the difference between the real wage and a fair wage, but that's how it has evolved.

(Whatever happened to that instructor from Aspen who was fired for passing out fliers bemoaning this problem? I went to college with him, ha ha.)

 

[Robyn]

As a coach I'm on the season long side of this. Sometimes I get nothing or a travel mug or a $25 gift card, sometimes it's $100 or something that all the parents went in on together and once I got a beautiful Neve designs sweater. Usually it's end of the season but occasionally I'm given something mid season. All were very much appreciated but never expected. One year a parent stuffed a huge thing of handwarmers in my backpack to use for all the kids. That was hugely appreciated and took the pressure off me to provide them when forgotten by kids/parents.

The things that mean the most to me are the cards drawn and signed by the kids. The hugs. Especially the next season when they see me again, and the year after that and after that. When I know I've made an impression on the child. I have 1 girl who I coach my first year, 6 seasons ago. This year she came to give me a hug the first day and she's taller than me now.

 

[frenchgirl]

How about this scenario?:

We were videotaped today which we found out just before the lesson started. The person videotaping us was not our instructor, but another instructor on the mountain. I know him a bit since he taught my youngest for a lesson. Now he and our instructor followed us for 1 1/2 hr to videotape each one of us for a couple of runs. He will give us the video next week. How much tip should I give him when I see him? We did not pay him...I think it came out of the season lesson deal probably. Sometimes they have people to come out to see you ski for alignment issues, or to do a tuning demo, etc ...

 

[maggie198]

Unfortuntately, at most resorts, the instructor sees a small part of the cost of the lesson but it is not the obligation of the customer to remedy this problem. I teach part time and it is not my only source of income so this is not an issue for me. The problem is that if resorts don't pay instructors enough to live on, the quality of instruction will suffer at some point. Again, this is not the customer's problem.

Tipping is optional and you should not automatically tip for a lesson.

I agree totally that this is the main problem. We can see from comments here that some of these resorts get quite a lot of money for their lessons. Multiply those high lesson costs by # of people in a group lesson, and it equals that the instructor doing all the work should get more of that money!

This is a topic that puts a bee in my bonnet too. I'm of the opinion that tipping is done to show appreciation, not a requirement to make up for the business underpaying their staff. I have a daughter who's a waitress, so I understand that that's a regular practice with some jobs. But I've never felt that it's right. And ski instructors DO have knowledge, experience, and costs to work. It's their expertise that is drawing the skiers in for lessons. They should be compensated fairly by the mountain.

End of rant.

And for season long programs where you or your children are being coached I think tipping is appropriate to show your appreciation for their time, effort and concern.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

The ultimate tip...

At the risk of repeating some the previously stated comments and ones I made on another SkiDivas thread last year, I will chime in from the instructor end.

The ultimate tip for me is a student who takes the time to let me know they gained something from the lesson. I am more moved and excited about someone who leaves me a personal note or a post lesson follow up email, than cash. I have a folder for all my cards, when I can no longer ski I hope to reread them, reflect on my years as an instructor and beam in the memories.

However, I do rely on tips for my winter income. They represent up to 30% of my total earnings. Unlike restaurant servers most of us make at least minimum wage. We almost never get health benefits, and our training and gear expenses are much higher.

I know many instructors who will not be available for poor tippers. I personally will only ski with nice people regardless of their tips or lack there of. I do understand some of my colleagues who are feeding their kids from this one full time (7 days a week all season long) job. But, the flip side, no one is making them teach skiing for a living.

A note on private versus group lesson tips. At many ski areas private lesson compensation is greater than groups, unless there are many people in the group. So, if you are lucky enough to get a private for the cost of a group lesson, remember that not only is the instructor probably making less than their private colleague, but also, only getting a potential tip from one student.

I myself agree that it is not for the guest to make up the difference. Most US ski areas are on government land or private land and the local resort has the legal monopoly on lessons. One way to remedy this would be to create a more level playing field, as they have in Europe where anyone can open a ski school and compete...and most importantly pay themselves or their instructors a more fair wage.

In answer to previous posts, I think that a five or ten dollar tip on a $650 dollar day is a bit insulting, but totally ok if the lesson is a group lesson for $60 or so.
For our locals groups, whether for kids or adults, and shorter camps as well, the participants often get together and hand a group envelope at the end. This allows all to show appreciation for a job well done, while eliminating the awkwardness of perhaps not being able to contribute the same amount as another person.

Most importantly, tell your instructor why you enjoyed your lesson, or why you did not, and book them again or recommend them to a friend...that is a true sign of appreciation!!!

 

[Lilywhite]

I'm British and tipping other than the waitress at a restaurant is not widespread at home, you might tip your taxi driver or buy the barstaff a drink in your local pub now and again but that is about it.
Going abroad I do expect to tip more often and make an effort to learn whats normal for the country I am going to.
Mostly in the past I have taken group lessons and have been used to contributing to a pot collection from the whole group on the final lesson and it has varied wildly according to finances, lesson standards and that countries norm as to how much I have tipped.
In Bulgaria where the wages are very low and the poor lady teaching us had a large class and actually did very well to keep us all in 1 piece in such naff conditions we probably doubled her paycheck that week and kept her in cigarettes and vodka for the rest of the season, whilst in Banff after having signed up for 3 group lessons with someone who was more bothered that we all ski at least 1 black run by the time he finished with us (despite the fact that 2 of the group had only ever had a lesson on dry slopes before!) I actually abandoned the group half way through the 2nd lesson and merely flicked him the birdie! I found out later the 6 he started with was just 2 the final day and they were the 2 that had never previously skied snow. I somehow doubt they tipped!
In Sweden its not something they expect but as mentioned before it is appreciated, as is a piece of cake and a coffee if you stop to admire the view.
I have to scrimp to get my holidays, I too work in the hospitality/service industry and will tip whatever I can afford providing it was a reasonable lesson, this is not always the 20p/c suggested as the norm, sometimes its a meal in a restaurant or on the hill or as in Sweden last year when I found out my instructor had loved the Roast beef he had had in Britain when he visited I invited him back to apartment the 6 of us were sharing for Roast beef, yorkshire pudding and all the trimmings. He and his girlfriend had a great night and we are still in touch via facebook and will be visiting them in March.

 

[climbingbetty]

Great topic. My first (and only) lesson this season, the other gal in my group & I looked at each other at the end of the lesson, after our instructor had skied off and said, "we're we supposed to tip him?":no idea:

We were both around the same age- young professionals in our first post-college job not making a lot of money, and also still learning about these little nuances that parents previously took care of.

I had a vague idea the I should had tipped him, but honestly, I forgot to stop at the ATM and get cash on the way to the mountain. I thought about leaving him something at the ski school desk, but as I reflected on my experience during the lesson, I was pretty disappointed with it. I told the instructor three different times that I needed a chance to stop, pull off to a safe spot and adjust my boot so I could get feeling back in my right foot. While he acknowledged my request, it was never fulfilled. During most of the lesson, I only heard half of what he said over the snow guns which wasn't his fault, but it was a problem that he directed most of what he said at the other woman instead of me. It was just the two of us and the instructor, but I definitely felt like the third wheel at times. The first time we rode the lift up, I noticed he made conversation with her about what she did for a living and where she lived. Questions he never asked me. He didn't really ask me much of anything or talk to me directly. Not that I needed to gush to a perfect stranger about such things, but just to illustrate it was awkward at times. I felt like a single that ended up on the chairlift with two friends.

At any rate, this is a good discussion to have. My husband is an ice climbing guide and tips are big part of his income too. When he gets first time clients they usually don't know that tipping is customary, and so he usually doesn't get tips from them. It's a little disappointing for him, but its not like he can put a big sign out there. Perhaps that's why my first ski lesson was less then stellar- he probably assumed that as newbies we weren't going to know to tip and acted accordingly. I guess he won't know that the reason for my lack of tip was the lack of service instead of just a newbie thing. I promise I'll be much better prepared next time though....

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Climbing Betty,

Let's hope your instructor was just a bad apple, and that he was not bad because he thought he would not get a tip. I love some of my colleagues who refuse to teach privates in spite of 100-200 dollar tips on a daily basis, because they do not care to babysit adults all day. They prefer to teach group lessons, where they know they will get good skiers, who are eager to get better. The advantage of a large mountain with many instructors is that we all find where we belong and are happiest teaching and strive to get there fast. For some it is kids, and they dread adults (boring and too much talk and psychology) for others like myself it is the timid or eager to learn as I feel that my insights are truly helpful and love the palpable excitement of being part of that change, and some just love to charge, so teaching, or rather coaching high level skiers is their deal. Anyone who pursues a professional or amateur career as a snowsports instructor with profits in mind is in it for the wrong reasons. That being said, we all love to be able to live off of our hard work too.

 

[Mom of Redheads]

I had a vague idea the I should had tipped him, but honestly, I forgot to stop at the ATM and get cash on the way to the mountain.

OMG! This made me laugh... here's a similar story... I took all 3 of my kids to Shawnee almost 2 years ago. They were 9, 7 and 4 (with autism). I too DD out of the daycare and bought a private lesson for her (the 4 year old) and he was AWESOME!!!!! Took her on the lift, kept her longer than the 1 hour.... and she even called him by the wrong name the whole time as the front desk had given me a different name and I had told her the instructor's name before we met him (autistic thing; she's bad at names and very rigid at times).

I had no cash in my pocket! All I had with me was a credit card. No ATM, no nothing. I went everywhere - to the cafeteria to ask if they could run my card through a higher amount if I bought something, to the front desk where lessons were sold - etc etc. No one, but no one at Shawnee was willing to run my credit card and give me $20. Even when I explained I wanted it to tip an instructor... I was irritated and embarrassed at the same time... I didn't have one of those credit/debit cards either... Sure I could have gone back to the car for my wallet, but it was a major hike and I had already left the boys alone in the cafeteria for too long drinking hot chocolate already. I finally gave up. I had every intention of sending $$ back to the guy, but it just never happened.

I still feel badly, even writing this. If anyone ever deserved a tip for great service, it was him.

 

[apski]

Climbing Betty,

Let's hope your instructor was just a bad apple, and that he was not bad because he thought he would not get a tip. I love some of my colleagues who refuse to teach privates in spite of 100-200 dollar tips on a daily basis, because they do not care to babysit adults all day. They prefer to teach group lessons, where they know they will get good skiers, who are eager to get better. The advantage of a large mountain with many instructors is that we all find where we belong and are happiest teaching and strive to get there fast. For some it is kids, and they dread adults (boring and too much talk and psychology) for others like myself it is the timid or eager to learn as I feel that my insights are truly helpful and love the palpable excitement of being part of that change, and some just love to charge, so teaching, or rather coaching high level skiers is their deal. Anyone who pursues a professional or amateur career as a snowsports instructor with profits in mind is in it for the wrong reasons. That being said, we all love to be able to live off of our hard work too.

snoWYmonkey,
I am intrigued by the notion that adults seeking private lessons are not the ones who want to learn. I have forked over a TON of money in CO for private lessons because I was tired of playing "follow the leader" in a typical group lesson and not getting the individual attention I need to improve. Is this a common perception among instructors?

I will add, as I often have done in recent posts here, that my new love is women's ski camp, where we ski in groups of 4 and ('cept for 1 gal in the group last year) all seem to share similar motivation and drive to learn and improve.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Apski

Thanks for calling me on that comment and hopefully having a chance to clarify. No, it is not a common perception. Many people who take lessons, no matter in what format are indeed looking to improve.

What we get a lot of are intermediate to advanced skiers who really only want someone to ski them around the mountain for the whole week they are visiting our area. They are not as eager to take time for drills and listen to feedback. As instructors, some do find this type of private lesson guest challenging, because it is more about social skills and just creating a fun time for the student. Students are as diverse as the people that populate this planet. In no way did I mean to infer that most private lesson seekers fall into this group.

For some instructors, their patience after many years has worn thin, and they prefer the intrepid person who saved up to make their trip happen and realize they have to improve to take it to the next step and splurge on a group lesson.

Instructors who do not give 100% to their students regardless of nationality (assumption they will not get tipped) or lesson type (group, locals, private) are a bane to our industry. I have taught quite a few group lessons that turned into referrals to privates, and some of my fondest memories are the pro bono lessons I taught in a latino ski program at another resort.

Sorry if it sounded like a reflection on the guests, it was meant more to reflect on some instructors and their preferences.

 

[apski]

No apology needed - I really just wondered if I was perceived that way simply by virtue of requesting the private lessons in the past. Thanks for the clarification.

And BTW, I LOVE having the real instructor scoop on here so please don't stop being frank about the realities of working as an instructor!