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Lessons on artificial snow: Yes or no?

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Given what marzNC just said, @EdithP do you think holding onto the railing would help you get this movement to work? Would your instructor allow you to use the rail if you asked?
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thank you so much, it really helps to feel supported and cheered on in this way.
First, lifting the inside ski.Actually, I made a language error: of course no one tells me to lift the tip, just the heel, but lifting the tip often is what Iam ending up anyway.
As to holiding to the rail. I do lots of "bar exercises" with lifting a ski tail . Actually, when I am at the rail I am succeeding well enough. It is when I try to do this manoeuvre on the rolling carpet, I cannot get it. It feels like I am trying to coordinate too many tasks at once. I try to balance on the outside ski which is beginning to turn, press my shin into the boot, lean forward (not sure in the direction of which ski exactly?) lift the tail of one ski, and still keep my one footed balance. I think I get confused, lose concentration and drop my hips.

Success in getting forward does not depend on where your shoulders are, it depends on where your pelvis is,
Now I think this is absolutely golden and I will try to prioritise this one action. I realise now that I have this same issue when ice skating or rollerblading, only no one has verbalised it so clearly before. NB, when starting my lessons of the carpet I had practised it somewhat, actually, but only from the vantage point of bending my ankles while not sticking the bum out. To some degree my stance has improved, which is why I have not thought this may not yet be enough. But I will totally continue to practise getting those hips forward.

Yes, I have my own boots and skis at home and may practise in front of a tall mirror. On the rational level I do not feel any fear of falling on my face when leaning forward, but on some invisible level my body is trying to protect me from myself. I remember this exact same thing when I was learning to dive: I wanted to just jump head first, but invisible strings would not let me. Those games our mind is playing with us; as if things were not difficult enough :( . (But that is the beauty of learning new skills :smile: )
There is a reason that long sleeves are recommended.
Yes, lifting one ski while on the fast moving carpet carpet is a bit of a challenge of its own, though nowadays I fall down rarely. I am told this lifting of inside ski and matching it to the stance ski is a step I must eventually take if I want to master parallel skiing. For sure I see other trainees doing it effortlessly, so it is not a big deal in itself. I just can't get the hang of it. Maybe if I concentrate now on pushing pelvis forward it will become easier.
 
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EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I so want to see you make this big breakthrough. You're working so hard. You are getting close, and that you'll get this breakthrough soon.
Now that is really sweet. But you really think things are moving forward? I do not mind putting in more time - whatever it takes- as long as I think there is a perspective of getting there eventually. But it is so hard to see positive changes when they are small and gradual, it is easy to write everything off as stagnation.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
Think of your stance as if you were bouncing a ball (like basketball) or ready position in tennis. That way your forward. You talk about pushing the boot. Yes, but as you've noticed if the rest of the body doesn't follow suit, then you're in the back seat. We do have another saying, but since English is not your first language it would really confuse you.

Bend ankles, knees, move the shoulders over the toes.

I also think that is there is not enough "carpet" to get stabilized to then lift your inside skis. I would like to see that done a wide slope. If gives you time. I think the narrow corridor of the carpet may not be enough space/width.

As much as I would like to do some off season work, I'm not sure I would like this rolling carpet. So good for you!!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I am very glad that "moving the pelvis forward" has clicked for you. My follow-up below, with your comments in black, mine in red. In giving these suggestions I am assuming that other wedge-skiers (snow-plow skiers) are learning to do the tail-lifting on the carpets next to you, and that you can learn it too, since you said "For sure I see other trainees doing it effortlessly, so it is not a big deal in itself." Others may have missed this comment of yours.

invisible strings
....no one tells me to lift the tip, just the heel, but lifting the tip often is what I am ending up anyway. (This is common; I see it all the time.)
... On the rational level I do not feel any fear of falling on my face when leaning forward, but on some invisible level my body is trying to protect me from myself. I remember this exact same thing when I was learning to dive: I wanted to just jump head first, but invisible strings would not let me. Those games our mind is playing with us; as if things were not difficult enough...
--Every ski instructor is aware of the self-protection mandate that their clients have embedded invisibly in their heads. The clients often don't know it's there. You are aware of this. Congratulate yourself for that insight!
--That protective urge needs to be overwritten when it's self-defeating, and it's quite common with skiers that it is counter-productive. It's not just the self-protection urge that messes skiers up. It's all the unconscious and seemingly "innate" movement patterns that have been embedded in muscle memory since these folks learned to walk and run on dry ground back when they were babies.
--The most common solution to replacing these unconscious "invisible strings" is to work on incremental change. Move slowly towards the goal, in un-intimidating conditions, at slow speeds, and on low pitch terrain. Do this practice with unrelenting repetition, in order to teach the invisible protector embedded in the mind that this new movement is not dangerous. Move up to higher speeds and higher pitches slowly, then return to slow low pitch practice, and do this back-and-forth repeatedly until the old protective urges and dry-land habits are gone, and the new movements happen when you give your body the order. Baby steps are called for in this whole process. They will bring you closer and closer to the targeted new movement pattern. Practice with mind-numbing repetition is called for. Really.
--Most intermediate skiers are not tolerant of this kind of "work." They just want to ski mindlessly, for fun, so they go ski with friends on thrilling terrain. With this mind-set, they are not able to learn new movements at all. The old habits continue to rule from their invisible hiding place in the head. You, Edith, are willing to do this kind of repetition. That is working in your favor. The best skiers in the word, those who go to the Olympics and win gold medals, do this kind of repetition with a mental focus on embedding the tiny, subtle improvements that will win them gold. You are in good company.
Caution: repeating the exact same movement without incremental change embeds it in muscle memory, making it harder to replace. It's important to do something new each practice session. Hopefully your instructor is giving you new things to do that might help you get to the goal every time you take a lesson. If he isn't, give new instructions to yourself in your head and do them yourself. He may not notice.


confused
It feels like I am trying to coordinate too many tasks at once. I try to
1. balance on the outside ski which is beginning to turn,
2. press my shin into the boot,
3. lean forward (not sure in the direction of which ski exactly?)
4. lift the tail of one ski, and
5. still keep my one footed balance.
I think I get confused, lose concentration and drop my hips.

--You are right. This set of instructions needs to be simplified. There are too many parts.

--You need to work on doing two things consciously to get it done. This is the set of instructions I give my wedge-turning students, and they are almost always successful.

1. Bend forward at the ankles, and lift your pelvis up and move it forward in front of your toes. Keep it there, 100 % of the time you are skiing. If your body refuses to lift the tail, and the tip or the whole ski comes up, you need to do this ankle-bending to get yourself out of the back seat. Do NOT "press your shin into the boot." Do NOT "lean forward." Do NOT "lean" at all. Do NOT even think about doing the "one foot balance." Do NOT try to "transfer balance" to the new outside foot. Forget all those things. They will happen when you successfully lift the tail without you thinking about them.

2. Lift the tail of the inside ski. Lift it one-two inches. Put it back down, lift it again, put it back down. Your lifting foot may move back a little as you do this. Mirror work at home will help you get this movement working. If you put the tail down hard, it will make a
"thump" sound on the carpet/snow. This exercise is called "thumpers." You can make a loud or quite "thump" sounds with the tail as you put it down. At this point it doesn't matter how high or when you lift this inside ski's tail. You will probably only be able to lift it "late in the turn," aka "at the bottom of the turn," when your skis are already going in the new direction, but for now that's fine.

*****Once you are good at "thumpers," there are advancements you can make. Lift it and keep it lifted, instead of thumping it. Then lift it for a longer time each turn. Then lift it earlier in the turn, in the top half of the turn. Last of all, and for the most extra credit, lift it before the turn starts and keep it lifted for the whole turn (this will be quite difficult at first).
**""Thinking of each turn as a half-circle, as illustrated below. You can see which ski is the inside and which is the outside. "New inside ski" refers to the top half of that half-circle, as the turn is getting started.
At this point your turns have a very short top half. But it's there. See if you can figure out when that top half starts. It ends when the skis are pointing straight down the hill. That's when the bottom half of the turn starts.
Inside-outside ski.png
I had practised it [getting those hips forward] somewhat, actually, but only from the vantage point of bending my ankles while not sticking the bum out.
--That's all you need to do. Just bend forward at the ankles, with bum up and forward ... then lift the tail of the inside ski.


Summary of how to eliminate the confusion:
--Bend forward at the ankles, maintain that ankle-bend constantly with your lower leg muscles (anterior tibialis), while lifting and projecting the pelvis forward.
--Lift the tail of the inside ski a little. All you need is one inch/centimeter. Lift and thump. Thump, thump, thump. Your lifting foot may move backwards a little and that's good. Do the next turn, thump, thump, thump, repeat all hour.


I am told this lifting of inside ski and matching it to the stance ski is a step I must eventually take if I want to master parallel skiing. ....Maybe if I concentrate now on pushing pelvis forward it will become easier.
--Yes, it will. It may be that simple, if you stop thinking about all those other things.
 
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SkiBam

Angel Diva
I have very clear memories of the first time an instructor wanted me to try this drill. It was the first private lesson I took from Ric at Bridger. The first time I tried it, I fell over immediately. Obviously my weight wasn't in the right place. Of course, falling on soft snow is not a big deal. Falling on a rolling carpet is quite different. The instructor can stop the carpet pretty quickly, but still something to be avoided. There is a reason that long sleeves are recommended.

I think I remember that day at Bridger! I've always been a huge proponent of the "lifting the tail of the inside ski" drill (it helped me enormously, even as a more advanced skier and I still use it) and when I saw from the chairlift that you were learning this, I was very pleased and commented that that was exactly the right thing to be practising.

Gosh, was it really 2013 we were there?
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I think I remember that day at Bridger! I've always been a huge proponent of the "lifting the tail of the inside ski" drill (it helped me enormously, even as a more advanced skier and I still use it) and when I saw from the chairlift that you were learning this, I was very pleased and commented that that was exactly the right thing to be practising.

Gosh, was it really 2013 we were there?
Actually, my first lesson with Ric was in 2012 just before a Diva West at Big Sky. You were following Bill around Bridger the following season, after we checked out Grand Targhee. That was a really fun trip!

Ric taught me two ways to practice fundamentals that day I still do on a regular basis. Went back for a second private lesson the following weekend. Bill and I had a lesson with him in 2019. Ric decided we were ready for a short, very steep chute off a hairy traverse after the first couple hours. Fair to say that I would never have imagined doing that type of terrain when I started doing lessons with him. He taught us another really simple drill to work on upper and lower body separation.

I also learned about the connection between Tai Chi and ski technique from Ric. He discovered Tai Chi after teaching skiing for at least a decade. Became a Tai Chi instructor for a while.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I also think that is there is not enough "carpet" to get stabilized to then lift your inside skis. I would like to see that done a wide slope. If gives you time. I think the narrow corridor of the carpet may not be enough space/width.
For a confident advanced intermediate or an advanced skier there is plenty of rolling carpet to do the drill lifting the tail. Meaning someone who has done it on snow reasonably often without needing too much concentration.

Harder to say for an advanced beginner or low intermediate. I was just "skiing" only during the last 10-min session during the one lesson I had at Inside Ski.

As to holiding to the rail. I do lots of "bar exercises" with lifting a ski tail . Actually, when I am at the rail I am succeeding well enough. It is when I try to do this manoeuvre on the rolling carpet, I cannot get it. It feels like I am trying to coordinate too many tasks at once. I try to balance on the outside ski which is beginning to turn, press my shin into the boot, lean forward (not sure in the direction of which ski exactly?) lift the tail of one ski, and still keep my one footed balance. I think I get confused, lose concentration and drop my hips.
The trick to any drill is to reach a point where you can do it without too much concentration. As you say, there are so many things to think about. Practicing at the rail so that you don't have to worry about falling means you are more likely to start to be able to feel what various parts of your body are doing as you make a turn. It's equivalent to practicing fundamentals on the easiest trails (green), not intermediate trails. Even advanced skiers can learn a lot doing drills on easy slopes that they can't learn as well on steeper terrain.

It took me a couple seasons to really understand what my home hill instructor meant by "close the ankle." Didn't really become more or less automatic for another season or two. Still have to pay attention to that particular aspect on challenging slopes, but that means much steeper terrain now than 8-9 years ago.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I have my classroom teacher hat on this morning. Here are some important concepts that need to be a part of your (@EdithP) progress in skiing.

Closing the ankles
See how this expert skier is standing? He is "closing his ankles" by contracting the anterior tibialis on each lower leg. Skiers need to learn to do this. It takes practice over a long time to get the body to do this habitually, without conscious attention, when on skis. You (everybody) can't work on it unless you are in boots clicked into skis. If you try to do this in your regular shoes, without the fronts of the skis there to support your weight when the ankles are closed, you will fall on your face. When you're on skis, the fronts of the skis hold you up when you close the ankles. Closing your ankles moves your weight forward over the fronts of the skis. Making this a habit when you are on skis will propel your skills to the next level. Many things will improve immediately when the fronts of the skis are weighted.

**Be sure you do NOT allow your heels to get "light" as you do this with your ankles. You need weight on the backs of the skis too, so the whole ski is pressed downward onto the snow. This will maximize the ski's grip, and your control over where your skis take you.

All of these terms mean the same thing:
--close the ankles
--bend forward at the ankles
--dorsiflex
--flex your ankles
--press into the cuffs, flex into the cuffs, flex the cuffs, bend the cuffs
--shin-tongue
1625057292691.png

Inside ski - Outside ski
The diagram below shows two connected turns. The movement is down the page. The turns are parallel, but what it shows works for wedge turns (snow plow turns) as well. Both of these turns have a C shape, because they are "completed." Even though most of your (everybody's) turns are not completed, each turn has a top half anyway. It's important to have this diagram burnt into your memory as you ski.

All of these mean the same thing:
--Keep your weight on the outside ski.
--Ski from outside ski to outside ski.
--Ski outside ski dominant.

1625054395950.png

Finding and feeling the top half of each new turn
The image below on the left shows the end of the old turn (its bottom half), and the start of the new turn (its top half). The image on the right just isolates the top half of the new turn. It's short.

1625055445661.png1625055613584.png

These images show completed turns, with a full C shape to each of them. When a turn is not completed, the top half of the new turn is very, very, very short, even shorter than the image on the right. But a top half is always present in every turn, no matter how the turn is shaped.

@EdithP, see if you can identify when the top of each of your turns is happening as you ski. It's important to know when it's happening, to actually feel it with every turn, because eventually you'll want to lift the tail of the new inside ski (the yellow ski in this image) at this point. If you complete your turns more, it will be easier to find and feel the top of the new turn. Work on feeling the top half of every turn at some point in every lesson.

Expert tail lifting
See the yellow ski changing from right ski to left ski right in the middle of the image on the left? That's when you eventually want to switch which tail is lifted. It's your final goal. It takes some people years to get themselves to do this. It will feel scary at first to lift the tail of the new inside ski at this point, because this is when the new inside ski is the downhill ski. When you can lift the tail of that downhill ski, your new turn will start and your weight will be fully on the new outside ski at the very beginning of that turn. You will have succeeded in transferring weight fully from outside ski to outside ski, with no weight ever being on the inside ski, no matter which foot that is. Look at that full image above, and imagine yourself skiing with all your weight always on the red ski. The yellow ski will always have its tail lifted. That's your eventual goal. It's like walking, from foot to foot. Same as in skiing. It's hard to do so be patient with yourself. You are like a baby learning to take first steps. The baby needs to lift a foot to go forward. You need to lift the downhill foot to go forward too. To attain this level of mastery of the tail-lift, you'll need to be keeping your ankles firmly closed.

Two new movements at the same time
So you'll need to do two things at the same time, keep the ankles closed and lift the tail of the new inside ski when it's the downhill ski. Doing two new things at the same time, with conscious attention to both, is nearly impossible. You'll need the ankle-closing to work unconsciously when you focus your mind on lifting the tail of the downhill ski. This is your eventual goal -- skiing from outside ski to outside ski without weight on the inside ski. Look at the other skiers who lift the tails when you take your lesson next time. Do they lift the downhill ski's tail? Probably not. It's probably the uphill ski when they lift the tail. Do not get discouraged. You are on your way, as are they.
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I am a bit speechless. @liquidfeet , this is what great teaching is , and certainly for me. This is exactly what is most useful for me - to see the larger picture, to see where everything leads, where are present exercises designed to take me. And to have it processed through words and diagrams, this is what gets to me and I can integrate stuff best this way. I wish I could be your student!
I am also very grateful for reinforcing the message that what I am learning is not so very easy to start with, something which @marzNC has recently reminded me of. (Also many thanks) I tend to stick to the belief that what I am struggling with is baby stuff to most people, and who likes to feel the dumbest kid in the classroom? This comes from many sources, some no doubt from the fact that most of my close friends are great skiers. Even when I ask them about their memories of actually learning this stuff, they say it was just natural and they do not even remember a particular learning process. Then, there is this general belief prevalent in Poland, that you should not even need special teaching , or lessons, you just learn, "from the air" and one or two ski holiday will do it for a person who is reasonably fit. This is how my sister (who lives in Canada) has learned to ski as an adult, and her husband, and all four of their kids. Further, I have never reflected that just living to my age has ingrained all those habits and reflexes which need to be overcome and it just cannot be done rapidly. This is all giving me a lot of material to persevere and just keep doing things, even if I think it is not having any effect, I am probably wrong.
Also, I can see that my coach is trying to get me to do all the things you guys are bringing up, including making me to practise the closing of the ankles, which I am now in a regular habit of doing . We also always practise the correct position during the first minutes of every lesson, while at the bar. OK, I usually lose it later, when trying to get the other stuff in, but I will really try to use the remainder of the break on mental imagery of doing just that, closing the ankles, and sort of "hanging from" the boot tops over the fronts of my skis. Maybe this will do something; I have been learning dance patterns in this way and it often helped push things forward.
Again many thanks for sharing in this journey, perhaps I will have something positive to report before next ski season?
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I've found that it's the people who learned to ski as kids who can't remember the process by which they learned. They are unaware of the sequence of their learning. Most particularly, they forget that they skied in a wedge (snowplow) for 4-5 years before getting to parallel. I sure wish I had learned as a child.

Adults who learn to ski "naturally" without lessons are a different story. They usually have engaged in some previous activities, perhaps as children, which help them use some of the necessary movement patterns for skiing (but not all). I was one of these people. I had done gymnastics as a kid and was particularly devoted to roller skating and skate boarding as a teenager. When I started skiing at age 53, I thought "This is easy! I'm a natural!" I skied parallel from the very start and was insufferably proud of that.

But I wasn't the natural skier that I thought I was, and my skiing was terrible. I just didn't know. There are problems with this way of learning that show up when these adult skiers embed their self-taught movement patterns into muscle memory. I had trouble on hard steep groomers and in bumps.

When I became a ski instructor and started getting training on the job, I learned my skiing was badly infected with bad movements. They put me back in a wedge (snowplow) and taught me as if I were a beginner. I learned the fundamentals, finally. But my old habits were still there beneath those new ones. They will never go away, just get covered up with new movements. Even today they show up when I ski under duress.

Usually these self-taught skiing movements restrict a skier to the "terminal intermediate plateau." That's where I was at that time. This term means they are stuck at a certain level of skill and can not advance despite trying hard, because trying harder to perfect what they are doing, or adding new movements to their current way of skiing, doesn't work to help them ski on more challenging terrain or in more challenging conditions. They tend to blame the conditions of the day for their difficulties.

If these earnest and devoted skiers end up taking a lesson, as I did as a rookie instructor in training, they discover they have to replace the movements they are currently using. They need to go back down to the beginner terrain and start over. This is because they missed learning several fundamental things back at the beginning, and as a result they developed coping movements that worked on easy terrain and conditions but not on difficult terrain or in difficult snow. These problems are almost inevitable because no other athletic endeavor uses the combination of movements that skiing uses. A new skier can't see or recognize what an expert skier is doing that they've never seen nor done, so they don't pick it up by copying experts.

Of course, there are exceptions. Those people who become real experts on their own have friends and family that correct them as they learn, and help them improve in an organic fashion.

And there are terminal intermediates who think they are experts when they aren't. If they ski bumps smoothly and with some speed, that's a clear signal that they are indeed experts. If they can't ski bumps, well.... they need a lesson to learn some fundamentals that they missed. They will have to work hard to embed those fundamentals, back down on low pitch terrain, going slowly, and repeating repeating repeating, because the old habits will be resistant to being replaced.
 
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Iwannaski

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
One idea… because I found these videos helpful…
@EdithP … have you seen the SkiPT videos on YouTube? She does a lot of kitchen floor exercises to wire your brain for the right movements. I found those super helpful between ski sessions last winter to train my legs to “Feel” the right way.

Maybe some of those sprinkled in between your on ski time will help? Like MarzNC‘s blog, all the non-ski work helps me feel more confident on ski. :smile:
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
One idea… because I found these videos helpful…
@EdithP … have you seen the SkiPT videos on YouTube? She does a lot of kitchen floor exercises to wire your brain for the right movements. I found those super helpful between ski sessions last winter to train my legs to “Feel” the right way.
Can you provide a link to an example?
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
YES! Great suggestion - I’m so used to being the noob that I forgot. :wink:

Here’s the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWRN5He1l3WyCwW_ezdUpEg
Thanks! Cynthia Lazzara started posting Youtube videos about a year ago. By then I wasn't hunting around for videos on YouTube about ski conditioning much any more. I have a feeling a few of her videos will end up in my Over 50 Ski Fitness blog sooner or later.

Cynthia passed her PSIA Level I at Okemo in 2016. She a physical therapist professionally. I'd say there's a good chance she started skiing more after age 50. :smile:
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
One idea… because I found these videos helpful…
@EdithP … have you seen the SkiPT videos on YouTube? She does a lot of kitchen floor exercises to wire your brain for the right movements. I found those super helpful between ski sessions last winter to train my legs to “Feel” the right way.

Maybe some of those sprinkled in between your on ski time will help? Like MarzNC‘s blog, all the non-ski work helps me feel more confident on ski. :smile:
YES! great idea and many thanks. You have all been SO supportive. I will always be glad I have joined this fabulous group.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Isn't this site wonderful?? I'm so glad I found it too.
Be sure to let the community how your two weeks off goes, what you find interesting to think about and do, and what you want to try out when you get back to lessons.
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hello! I am back from my first lesson after the break and I am very pleased.
During the two weeks I practised intensively the correct posture - clicked into boots and skis, toes curled up, ankles bent, and the body forward - "spilling over" the boot tops, chin over the bindings, as someone suggested. Plus several exercises strengthening muscles around knees (crab walking especially). And when in bed visualising being on skis in the correct position and transferring weight.
And now I am finally able to actually lift the heel of the light ski . Once or twice I did the whole sequence of 2-3 turns with one heel up there, and felt this effortless glide . This is early days, but it has arrived! (I even had some onlookers cheering and clapping :smile: ) . It is the first time I am thinking that if on the slope rather than the carpet I might be able to turn parallel every time with enough traverse in between to regulate the speed.
Regarding SkiPT, I have made a curious and a little scary observation regarding social media.
Do you know, before I even looked up that channel it immediately showed on my YT following your suggestion? As if somewhere something registered that I might go there following a suggestion made.
Which I pass on, not for vanity's sake (I really have none when it comes to my skiing efforts) but to all of you who have been so helpful.
I can't wait for the next class.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
...
And now I am finally able to actually lift the heel of the light ski . Once or twice I did the whole sequence of 2-3 turns with one heel up there, and felt this effortless glide . This is early days, but it has arrived! (I even had some onlookers cheering and clapping :smile: ) .....
Wonderful! You rock!
 

Iwannaski

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
You made the investment and reaped the rewards!!! way to go!

And yes, I am a marketer and for the last few years I've taught digital marketing as well. Most of my students are absolutely horrified to learn how a marketer can leverage insights about you to position things in front of you. That being said, skiPT was what you could use, so that was "good" marketing. ;)
 

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