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Lessons on artificial snow: Yes or no?

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Your comments in black, mine in red.

Thinking hard on what the instructions are, I have come up with this:
I am to do things asymmetrically.
Yes, this is important to learn to do for skiing.
The weighted leg, should just be bent slightly and pressed into the boot. . No conscious rotation, no hover over the outside edge either. Just applying balance on the weighted leg and the whole body lean forward. That should turn the ski. Interesting. Your instructor is having you focus on "weighting" the new outside ski (the weighted one) first, to start the turn. I teach the other way, focus on the new inside ski (the lightened one) first to start the turn. We teach the same things, just in the opposite order.
**As I have said, there have been instructor "wars" over this sequence. All my comments have been to encourage you to do something with the new inside (unweighted) ski/foot/leg first.... knee-roll, bend the leg, lighten the ski. Your instructor may not know that this will start a turn all by itself.

To match that turn, the unweighted leg should: roll the knee out and tip slightly towards its uphill edge. Because you said "uphill edge" this means you do this knee roll after your skis have turned to point in the new direction, because that's when the unweighted ski the uphill one. Before the turn starts, the soon-to-be-unweighted-ski is the downhill one. That should in theory be enough - I understand - to effect a parallel turn. That third component, rotation of the unweighted foot , is in fact optional, if I cannot quite manage with just the first two.
Yes, it will start a turn because other invisible things are happening.
But if you have weight on the unweighted ski as your skis come around the corner, it will get stuck in that A-frame. By waiting to roll the knee until after the skis are pointing in the new direction (left turn, pointing left), you are losing a bit of your control over this unweighted ski. I think the solution is to roll the knee before the turn starts, not after.

I think now I have described the procedure as accurately as I know how. Wish I could do it, though!
You've described it very well! And you are paying very close attention to everything -- not all students have interest in thinking and working so hard on skiing well. You are the perfect student, determined to learn and persistent in figuring things out.

Since you have come here for advice, you may get advice that is a bit different from your instructor's. You'll need to decide if you want to deviate any from what he is telling you. If you can't get the results he wants for you with his instructions alone, you might try something new while in the lesson. The thing I will suggest will probably be invisible to him.:smile:

So here's my advice. Do everything he says, but do the things he tells you to do for the lightened ski first. Do these things before the turn starts. Do these things with the lightened ski in order to make the turn START.

I know from my own skiing and from all my teaching that this works. If you do these things only a second before doing the things he says to do with the weighted ski, he will not see it..... and you might see improvement in your control over that A-frame. Here are the things he is telling you to do with that ski:
--Knee-roll
--Lighten the ski (if you have trouble doing this, try keeping your shoulders high and hovering over the soon-to-be-weighted-ski as you do the knee-roll)
--Tip it towards its downhill edge (just a little -- the knee roll makes this possible; think about raising the arch of your foot).
--Do these things only a second before "weighting" the other ski. If you really do this, you may be able to get that ski unweighted early enough to rotate it to match the other ski and the A-frame will be gone.


I hope I've used English that makes sense. Your English is amazing! I don't speak any other languages and am so respectful of people who are multi-lingual.
 
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EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Your comments in black, mine in red.

Thinking hard on what the instructions are, I have come up with this:
I am to do things asymmetrically.
Yes, this is important to learn to do for skiing.
The weighted leg, should just be bent slightly and pressed into the boot. . No conscious rotation, no hover over the outside edge either. Just applying balance on the weighted leg and the whole body lean forward. That should turn the ski. Interesting. Your instructor is having you focus on "weighting" the new outside ski (the weighted one) first, to start the turn. I teach the other way, focus on the new inside ski (the lightened one) first to start the turn. We teach the same things, just in the opposite order.
**As I have said, there have been instructor "wars" over this sequence. All my comments have been to encourage you to do something with the new inside (unweighted) ski/foot/leg first.... knee-roll, bend the leg, lighten the ski. Your instructor may not know that this will start a turn all by itself.

To match that turn, the unweighted leg should: roll the knee out and tip slightly towards its uphill edge. Because you said "uphill edge" this means you do this knee roll after your skis have turned to point in the new direction, because that's when the unweighted ski the uphill one. Before the turn starts, the soon-to-be-unweighted-ski is the downhill one. That should in theory be enough - I understand - to effect a parallel turn. That third component, rotation of the unweighted foot , is in fact optional, if I cannot quite manage with just the first two.
Yes, it will start a turn because other invisible things are happening.
But if you have weight on the unweighted ski as your skis come around the corner, it will get stuck in that A-frame. By waiting to roll the knee until after the skis are pointing in the new direction (left turn, pointing left), you are losing a bit of your control over this unweighted ski. I think the solution is to roll the knee before the turn starts, not after.

I think now I have described the procedure as accurately as I know how. Wish I could do it, though!
You've described it very well! And you are paying very close attention to everything -- not all students have interest in thinking and working so hard on skiing well. You are the perfect student, determined to learn and persistent in figuring things out.

Since you have come here for advice, you may get advice that is a bit different from your instructor's. You'll need to decide if you want to deviate any from what he is telling you. If you can't get the results he wants for you with his instructions alone, you might try something new while in the lesson. The thing I will suggest will probably be invisible to him.:smile:

So here's my advice. Do everything he says, but do the things he tells you to do for the lightened ski first. Do these things before the turn starts. Do these things with the lightened ski in order to make the turn START.

I know from my own skiing and from all my teaching that this works. If you do these things only a second before doing the things he says to do with the weighted ski, he will not see it..... and you might see improvement in your control over that A-frame. Here are the things he is telling you to do with that ski:
--Knee-roll
--Lighten the ski (if you have trouble doing this, try keeping your shoulders high and hovering over the soon-to-be-weighted-ski as you do the knee-roll)
--Tip it towards its downhill edge (just a little -- the knee roll makes this possible; think about raising the arch of your foot).
--Do these things only a second before "weighting" the other ski. If you really do this, you may be able to get that ski unweighted early enough to rotate it to match the other ski and the A-frame will be gone.


I hope I've used English that makes sense. Your English is amazing! I don't speak any other languages and am so respectful of people who are multi-lingual.
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Liquidfeet,
Thank you , this is priceless. While I trust my coach 100%, I am just getting a little tired with doing the same thing over and over, without budging towards the goal. I will definitely try what you suggest and change the sequence in my head. Very curious!!! Will let you know how it went.
Thank you for all encouragement. This means a lot, quite on its own. I am beginning to see that maybe I was wrong to think skiing should come easy. But I got that belief from experience: whenever I talk to people who ski, or look at internet material, everwywhere there is this mantra: skiing is easy to learn, hard to master. As I am at the beginning of the journey, surely it ought to be easy for now? If you write a question into Google: how long does it take to lear to ski, you will see: a few days to pick up the basics, then maybe one or two weeks (if that!) to start parallel turns and venture to red trails. Which made me a bit downhearted at seeing difficulties at every corner. But maybe some sort of natural selection takes place, and people who do not pick things up fast become discouraged and quit before they may talk about their very different experience?
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
MarzNC, yes, I remember that you visited Poland in the 1970s. When I first introduced myself to this wonderful group in 2019, this is what I learned. BTW, if you do not mind sharing, what was your father's field? My husband started in life as a physics researcher, so if that was your father's sphere, (maybe?) there could be some names that ring.
Lodz is the city I went to uni actually. Now I have been living in Warsaw for the last twenty years. And whereabouts in the US do you live?
My father was a chemistry professor. His specialty was micro organic chemistry. I ended up marrying a chemist, but his specialty is materials science. As for me, I avoided taking chemistry in college so only had a required class in high school. But my older brother got his Ph.D. in Physics after a double-major in chemistry and physics. He retired a few years ago after a career in geophysics with NASA at the Goddard Space Center in Washington DC.

I was born and raised in New York City. Moved to North Carolina in high school because my mother wanted to find a nice place to be retired . . . even though my father didn't retire for a while after she and I moved. She was very independent.

Something has gone wrong with the quote function on my computer , and now I am having my own input included in the quote in the mesage above. . Could you maybe tell me how to correct this?
When you quote, notice that in the text editor there are commands that include QUOTE with square brackets. If the "[ ]" gets messed up, then any text following ends up inside the quote because it never gets turned off. Does that make sense?
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Thank you for all encouragement. This means a lot, quite on its own. I am beginning to see that maybe I was wrong to think skiing should come easy. But I got that belief from experience: whenever I talk to people who ski, or look at internet material, everwywhere there is this mantra: skiing is easy to learn, hard to master. As I am at the beginning of the journey, surely it ought to be easy for now? If you write a question into Google: how long does it take to lear to ski, you will see: a few days to pick up the basics, then maybe one or two weeks (if that!) to start parallel turns and venture to red trails. Which made me a bit downhearted at seeing difficulties at every corner. But maybe some sort of natural selection takes place, and people who do not pick things up fast become discouraged and quit before they may talk about their very different experience?
There is a LOT of variation in how easy it is for people to learn to ski. True even for children, not just adults or seniors. We tried to turn a couple of my daughter's friends into basic skiers when she was a tween. One of her friends was sporty and good at athletics in general. But for her skiing wasn't a good fit. It took my friend 3 seasons skiing two holiday weekends (4 days) at our local hill before she was having fun on the short blue (intermediate trail). Just not enough mileage. She was very willing to practice and avoid getting into a situation of trying to ski trails that were too scary. She had fun on the easy trails. In the long run, that was a good approach. When she had a chance to do a spring break ski vacation at Alta when her kids were a bit older, she had very solid fundamentals. The instructor she worked with (solo group lesson, 2 hours) had her skiing the easiest blue at the end of the lesson. That was a surprise for her and me. That trail was probably five times longer than the trails and had sections that are as steep as the "advanced" trails at our home hill (near Washington DC).

Note that what you find in Europe about learning to ski is somewhat different than in the UK or USA. Skiing in the Alps is quite different than a small hill where it takes an intermediate 5 minutes to finish, even with a few stops. Being able to ski on long groomers does make it easier to get in the mileage required to gain confidence and relax more.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Liquidfeet,
Thank you , this is priceless. While I trust my coach 100%, I am just getting a little tired with doing the same thing over and over, without budging towards the goal. I will definitely try what you suggest and change the sequence in my head. Very curious!!! Will let you know how it went.
Thank you for all encouragement. This means a lot, quite on its own. I am beginning to see that maybe I was wrong to think skiing should come easy. But I got that belief from experience: whenever I talk to people who ski, or look at internet material, everwywhere there is this mantra: skiing is easy to learn, hard to master. As I am at the beginning of the journey, surely it ought to be easy for now? If you write a question into Google: how long does it take to lear to ski, you will see: a few days to pick up the basics, then maybe one or two weeks (if that!) to start parallel turns and venture to red trails. Which made me a bit downhearted at seeing difficulties at every corner. But maybe some sort of natural selection takes place, and people who do not pick things up fast become discouraged and quit before they may talk about their very different experience?
Children learn fast. But if they start in a wedge, most of them take a loooong time to switch to parallel. Once skiing in parallel, they advance fast. They usually have little fear. When they fall their bodies are elastic and don't break, and they are short so balance is easier. Adults are right to be jealous of kids who learn early.

Adults display amazing differences in how long it takes to ski parallel. Some just can't get any turns to work, even in a wedge. Often this is because the boots don't fit right, thus the talk about boot fit here. Persistence pays off. Excellent, professionally fit boots help a LOT. One day you might go for that, but right now I think you're doing fine with the boots you have.

For adults and kids, doing a skiing movement repetitively for days and days, weeks and weeks, or even years and years, embeds it in "muscle memory." Once embedded, it is very difficult to replace that movement. That's why kids who are taught to ski in a wedge and allowed to continue to do so for years have difficulty learning to ski parallel.

It's also why adults have a difficult time learning to ski better, once they learn to ski as intermediates. Their somewhat limiting movement patterns (legs and feet and upper body movements) are deeply embedded as habit. It takes concentrated work of the sort you are doing now to replace old habits. Kinda like going on a diet. Old habits die hard.

You are learning to ski on the carpet with much better movements than what you were using on snow. You are no longer leaning your whole body to edge the skis, and you are no longer turning your whole body to get the skis to turn. You are learning to get your skis to turn with what you do with your feet and legs, not what you do with your upper body. You are learning to ski "from the feet up."

This is a big deal, and you are learning it now at the beginning of your ski life. You may be able to avoid hitting what's known as the "intermediate plateau" later. That is when adults can't learn new and better movements because the old ones have become such strong habits. They are unwilling to do the work to replace them. They just want to ski "for fun," with friends who have no willingness to ski with them as they work on their movements. They often just want to ski fast on one trail after another, never repeating a trail. Some enjoy challenging themselves with difficult terrain, so "getting down" that trail is a success in their minds, no matter what movements they used to get down it. That's not how people learn new things.

You are learning at the right time how to do the right stuff.
 
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brooksnow

Certified Ski Diva
skiing is easy to learn, hard to master. As I am at the beginning of the journey, surely it ought to be easy for now?

You have completed the "easy to learn" phase, and are well into the "hard to master" part.

Many people happily ski without ever thinking about the sort of details you're working on. They happily ski gentle slopes and even steep terrain without making a true parallel turn. Do they ski well? Not really. Do they enjoy skiing? Yes. Are they having fun? Yes.

I have a cousin who skis very fast on all the steepest trails and glades at every mountain. Why do I wish he would be willing to take some advice from me or a take a lesson from another instructor? He leads with his shoulder, turns his whole body to get his skis to turn, his inside ski is never on edge, etc. You recognize the list.

You are doing great! You are working on important details that many people don't even know they should master. You will be amazed by how well you ski when you get back on snow.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
....The words such as "tilting" or "rotating" are extremely confusing, I know, because they may be taking place in many different planes.
....
@EdithP, I found these images that might clarify what rolling the knee looks like. When you do it, the foot stays in place; it does not move outward nor forward. If you hold the foot in place and roll the knee outward, the foot and the ski attached to it will tip onto its little toe edge. This image shows the feet and legs from behind as the skier rolls the left knee outward. You can see that the ski tips because of this movement. Another way of doing this: the skier lifts the arch of that foot. This will roll the knee outward. Both work.
Screen Shot 2021-06-09 at 12.17.46 PM.png

And below is what that knee-roll (or arch-lifting, or foot tipping) looks like in action. You go a little "bowlegged." Note that there is no rotation of this foot or the ski in these images. The soon-to-be-light foot and ski (NEW inside ski/foot/leg) continue to point in the same direction as the other one. A parallel turn is created by this movement. It's like magic.Screen Shot 2021-06-09 at 12.18.25 PM.png

This skier is also lightening the new inside ski as he rolls the knee and lifts the arch. He does this by lifting the tail of that ski just a little bit. Lifting the tail removes any possibility of having too much weight on that ski. It immediately transfers all the weight to the other ski, where it belongs. Notice how the tail of the left ski is just a little lifted off the snow.
Screen Shot 2021-06-09 at 12.33.35 PM.png
 
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EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
You have completed the "easy to learn" phase, and are well into the "hard to master" part.

Many people happily ski without ever thinking about the sort of details you're working on. They happily ski gentle slopes and even steep terrain without making a true parallel turn. Do they ski well? Not really. Do they enjoy skiing? Yes. Are they having fun? Yes.

I have a cousin who skis very fast on all the steepest trails and glades at every mountain. Why do I wish he would be willing to take some advice from me or a take a lesson from another instructor? He leads with his shoulder, turns his whole body to get his skis to turn, his inside ski is never on edge, etc. You recognize the list.

You are doing great! You are working on important details that many people don't even know they should master. You will be amazed by how well you ski when you get back on snow.
Thank you, it feels great to be getting positive feedback. I did not think I had moved into more advanced stuff. I often heard that "real perfecting of skiing starts with parallel turns", so I thought that until that momjent things are considered easy. Thanks again for making me see this is wrong. TBH, I probably would have been quite contented with imperfect skiing and "just having fun" . Only could not make it work, unlike your cousin :(
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@EdithP, I found these images that might clarify what rolling the knee looks like. When you do it, the foot stays in place; it does not move outward nor forward. If you hold the foot in place and roll the knee outward, the foot and the ski attached to it will tip onto its little toe edge. This image shows the feet and legs from behind as the skier rolls the left knee outward. You can see that the ski tips because of this movement. Another way of doing this: the skier lifts the arch of that foot. This will roll the knee outward. Both work.
View attachment 16043

And below is what that knee-roll (or arch-lifting, or foot tipping) looks like in action. You go a little "bowlegged." Note that there is no rotation of this foot or the ski in these images. The soon-to-be-light foot and ski (NEW inside ski/foot/leg) continue to point in the same direction as the other one. A parallel turn is created by this movement. It's like magic.View attachment 16044

This skier is also lightening the new inside ski as he rolls the knee and lifts the arch. He does this by lifting the tail of that ski just a little bit. Lifting the tail removes any possibility of having too much weight on that ski. It immediately transfers all the weight to the other ski, where it belongs. Notice how the tail of the left ski is just a little lifted off the snow.
View attachment 16046
Well, This morning I had another lesson. Given your recent remarks on the importance of boots, an uncanny coincidence occurred: as I arrived for the lesson, my coach told me he decided to change my boots for something with harder flex. I went up to 95 and immediately started doing better . Coupled with your advice to change the sequence of doing things, I have finally made a decided progress. I think the majority of my turns were parallel. OK, not particularly pretty, wobbly , a bit haphazard, but I really felt an improvement.
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Lifting the tail removes any possibility of having too much weight on that ski. It immediately transfers all the weight to the other ski, where it belongs. Notice how the tail of the left ski is just a little lifted off the snow.
I wish I could do this! We tried this often. Unfortunately, I have big problem with such lifting of the tail; when I really try my hardest, I lift the front. No good at all. This exercise gave me so much stress that in the end my coach decided to drop it for now, because I was not learning anything. This is connected to my not getting to the front enough, which remains an area needing much work.
We tried a new approach today though. Rather than transfer weight directly from one ski to another, I was doing a sequence in which at the end of a turn I just let both skis go straight downhill for a short moment. This made them come parallel, and I could start another turn by tipping the ankle. This somehow clicked :smile:. I saw my coach was very pleased with this development. (I beamed at him).
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
You are learning to ski on the carpet with much better movements than what you were using on snow. You are no longer leaning your whole body to edge the skis, and you are no longer turning your whole body to get the skis to turn. You are learning to get your skis to turn with what you do with your feet and legs, not what you do with your upper body. You are learning to ski "from the feet up."

This is a big deal, and you are learning it now at the beginning of your ski life.
Thank you again. I need reminders that all this work is going somewhere. (I have a very shy hope of maybe surprising my ski buddies a litle next winter :smile:
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
There is a LOT of variation in how easy it is for people to learn to ski. True even for children, not just adults or seniors. We tried to turn a couple of my daughter's friends into basic skiers when she was a tween. One of her friends was sporty and good at athletics in general. But for her skiing wasn't a good fit. It took my friend 3 seasons skiing two holiday weekends (4 days) at our local hill before she was having fun on the short blue (intermediate trail). Just not enough mileage. She was very willing to practice and avoid getting into a situation of trying to ski trails that were too scary. She had fun on the easy trails. In the long run, that was a good approach. When she had a chance to do a spring break ski vacation at Alta when her kids were a bit older, she had very solid fundamentals. The instructor she worked with (solo group lesson, 2 hours) had her skiing the easiest blue at the end of the lesson. That was a surprise for her and me. That trail was probably five times longer than the trails and had sections that are as steep as the "advanced" trails at our home hill (near Washington DC).
I am so glad this has not completely passed my by, and I am getting this chance of maybe catching up , at least some. I have always loved winter and the snow, and skiing seemed to me the best way of actually living it, just like like dancing helps you experience the music. I am so glad I have found this group! In Poland agism as well as sexism are doing splendidly well and a woman in her sixties and with grandchildren is supposed to don her apron, bake cookies and mind her varicose veins.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
We tried a new approach today though. Rather than transfer weight directly from one ski to another, I was doing a sequence in which at the end of a turn I just let both skis go straight downhill for a short moment. This made them come parallel, and I could start another turn by tipping the ankle. This somehow clicked :smile:. I saw my coach was very pleased with this development. (I beamed at him).
This is part of the CSIA progression. We call it the pause turn. Everyone wants to get on edge ASAP, and in some cases this causes real problems. So this approach is much better. You are better balanced to keep going.
 

chasinghorizons

Diva in Training
Well, This morning I had another lesson. Given your recent remarks on the importance of boots, an uncanny coincidence occurred: as I arrived for the lesson, my coach told me he decided to change my boots for something with harder flex. I went up to 95 and immediately started doing better . Coupled with your advice to change the sequence of doing things, I have finally made a decided progress. I think the majority of my turns were parallel. OK, not particularly pretty, wobbly , a bit haphazard, but I really felt an improvement.
Just read this whole thread and the story of your perseveration and progress has been inspiring! Great job!
So interesting about the boot flex too - I remember when I first went shopping for boots this season, a ski shop in LA told me I shouldn't be in anything higher than a 70 (since I'm 5'1" / 110). I'm super glad I didn't listen to them - ended up with a 95 flex boot after being professionally fit in Mammoth and I couldn't be happier with it. It seems some places really underestimate how much flex we need for good control!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Well, This morning I had another lesson. Given your recent remarks on the importance of boots, an uncanny coincidence occurred: as I arrived for the lesson, my coach told me he decided to change my boots for something with harder flex. I went up to 95 and immediately started doing better . Coupled with your advice to change the sequence of doing things, I have finally made a decided progress. I think the majority of my turns were parallel. OK, not particularly pretty, wobbly , a bit haphazard, but I really felt an improvement.
:thumbsup: Most excellent!
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I am so glad this has not completely passed my by, and I am getting this chance of maybe catching up , at least some. I have always loved winter and the snow, and skiing seemed to me the best way of actually living it, just like like dancing helps you experience the music. I am so glad I have found this group! In Poland agism as well as sexism are doing splendidly well and a woman in her sixties and with grandchildren is supposed to don her apron, bake cookies and mind her varicose veins.
LOL! For American ski areas, there are lots of seniors skiing midweek mornings. While most are men there are also plenty of women over 50 or 60 who have a very good time. While some of the women have been skiing for decades, there are those who didn't ski much when they were busy with family and work responsibilities. Multi-day clinics for women only have become pretty popular.

My idea for any sport that I learned was to learn enough to be considered "intermediate" because then it was more fun. Going beyond that wasn't necessary. Much easier to get to that point with lessons or coaching. For skiing, being limited to the easiest (green) trails can become boring. Once someone gets to ski the next level of trails, there is a lot more variation. With all the work you are doing on the rolling carpet, I have no doubt you'll surprise your friends next winter.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I wish I could do this! We tried this often. Unfortunately, I have big problem with such lifting of the tail; when I really try my hardest, I lift the front. No good at all. This exercise gave me so much stress that in the end my coach decided to drop it for now, because I was not learning anything. This is connected to my not getting to the front enough, which remains an area needing much work.
....
Yes. Lifting the tail is used to diagnose people who ski "in the back seat." Anyone can diagnose this for themselves without taking a lesson. If your weight is positioned over the back of the ski, you can't lift it. You need to ski with your weight positioned over the front of the ski.

Pressing shins into the tongue of the boot is important but not enough to get your torso's weight hovering over the front of the skis. Positioning the entire torso (shoulders down to hips) forward, with the shins contacting the boot tongues, will do it. To get there, raise your belly button upward and forward when you have shin-tongue contact. Belly button needs to be in front of toes.

It looks like this:
Screen Shot 2021-06-09 at 12.18.15 PM.png

...It feels like this (which is why people have trouble learning to do it):
closed ankles michael jackson.png

This is what shin-tongue looks like when the belly button is not far enough forward.
Screen Shot 2019-02-25 at 7.52.26 AM.png
 
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