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Lessons on artificial snow: Yes or no?

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hey, what do you know, I have just tried it with a strong "forward' extension and I think I got it! I felt it! I saw how that inside ski could be both light and yet pressured. I wonder if I will be able to do it on the carpet. Quite possiblywhen in motion I get nervous and do not bend that leg in spite of best intentions. But I thinkk I finally see it. Thank you, village!:party:
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Yes, definitely I caught this new element. I kept trying for a wrong move - sort of push the boot from the inside, parallel to the other ski . Did not think of trying to leverage. That image.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Lookie what I just found while messing around on the internet.... a picture of pulling the inside foot back. A clear and easy demonstration of the impact of sliding that foot back that everyone here can do is to try it as you get off the lift. To go to the right as you get off the lift, slide/pull the right foot back. Keep skis parallel. Do nothing else. Your skis will turn to the right on their own. Same for going left. Slide the left foot back. Your skis will turn you. Try this and report back what happens. If you get a turn as I've described, figure out how it happens and tell us what you think is happening. Or just enjoy it as a magic move!

PMTS inside ski pull-back cropped.jpeg
 
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liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I get nervous and do not bend that leg in spite of best intentions. But I thinkk I finally see it. Thank you, village!:party:
Awesome!

Everyone gets nervous when they first try this at the top/beginning of a turn, before their skis point downhill. That's because you are letting go of the support against falling that you've been getting from that downhill ski and leg. When you do any of these things you've been trying to do - slide it back, lift the tail, lighten it - that removes the support you've been enjoying.

It's called a "release." You are being asked to release your hold on the mountain so you can go in the other direction. The co-pilot in your unconscious head thinks you'll fall downhill if you do this, so that co-pilot says no! A few successful tries will begin to retrain that co-pilot so the nervousness should go away.

Start low in the turn, at the end, when your co-pilot won't be worried about you falling. That's when the inside ski/foot/leg and hip are uphill. Get it working there first, using that forward extension you just mentioned. I'm so excited you had this breakthrough!

Then over time slowly work on doing these things higher in the turn, earlier, until you can do them at the top/beginning.

Don't beat yourself up if the co-pilot won't let you do these things early in the turn. Most people learning take a few years to learn to do this, if they are determined enough to learn to do them. When I watch intermediates from the lift, most of them still move that uphill ski outward and stand on it before they do any of these things you are trying to learn. If you can learn to do these things now while you are in a wedge, with this instructor you have, you'll get truly parallel in no time once you are on snow.
 

Iwannaski

Angel Diva
@EdithP - this will not work as well on your indoor slope, perhaps, but one discussion that we’ve had here is maintaining at least some part of your focus waaaaaay down the slope. What I’ve found is that maintaining that long focus gets me over those nerves a little …. Because it feels less like you’re falling if you’re not looking at the part of the slope that you’ll “fall to” next. I don’t know why it works so well, but it’s REALLY effective (for me, at least).
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
@EdithP - this will not work as well on your indoor slope, perhaps, but one discussion that we’ve had here is maintaining at least some part of your focus waaaaaay down the slope. What I’ve found is that maintaining that long focus gets me over those nerves a little …. Because it feels less like you’re falling if you’re not looking at the part of the slope that you’ll “fall to” next. I don’t know why it works so well, but it’s REALLY effective (for me, at least).
Once someone is relatively comfortable on the rolling carpet, possible to do turns while closer to the top so that there is more "down the slope" in front. But don't really need to be there since it's possible to be find something to focus on "in the distance" even when right up at the safety bar.

InsideSki (near Washington, DC) has a 1-way mirror. So can see yourself in the mirror while making turns. It's both useful and distracting. I would guess someone who goes regularly would get used to it. Once I got the hang of making parallel turns during the one lesson I had, it was interesting to make a small movement and watch to see what happened while trying to feel what was happening. As a visual learner, being able to see myself was ultimately useful.
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@EdithP - this will not work as well on your indoor slope, perhaps, but one discussion that we’ve had here is maintaining at least some part of your focus waaaaaay down the slope. What I’ve found is that maintaining that long focus gets me over those nerves a little …. Because it feels less like you’re falling if you’re not looking at the part of the slope that you’ll “fall to” next. I don’t know why it works so well, but it’s REALLY effective (for me, at least).
Great tip! Even on the carpet it may work to some extent, because there is a large glass wall in front, with another room behind it.
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Everyone gets nervous when they first try this at the top/beginning of a turn, before their skis point downhill. That's because you are letting go of the support against falling that you've been getting from that downhill ski and leg. When you do any of these things you've been trying to do - slide it back, lift the tail, lighten it - that removes the support you've been enjoying.
Thanks for reminding me, it is very true. I will try to work at it once I get into the swing of it, usually in the second half of my lesson. My teacher has joked that I best learn new stuff by wearing its resistance out.

It's called a "release." You are being asked to release your hold on the mountain so you can go in the other direction. The co-pilot in your unconscious head thinks you'll fall downhill if you do this, so that co-pilot says no! A few successful tries will begin to retrain that co-pilot so the nervousness should go away.

Start low in the turn, at the end, when your co-pilot won't be worried about you falling. That's when the inside ski/foot/leg and hip are uphill. Get it working there first, using that forward extension you just mentioned. I'm so excited you had this breakthrough!

Then over time slowly work on doing these things higher in the turn, earlier, until you can do them at the top/beginning.
That is a good map for progressing.
Don't beat yourself up if the co-pilot won't let you do these things early in the turn. Most people learning take a few years to learn to do this, if they are determined enough to learn to do them. When I watch intermediates from the lift, most of them still move that uphill ski outward and stand on it before they do any of these things you are trying to learn. If you can learn to do these things now while you are in a wedge, with this instructor you have, you'll get truly parallel in no time once you are on snow.
Now , that is precious. The best teachers are those who can inspire confidence in students. You are really gifted that way - and we have not even met. Thanks, tech!
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Here's a very clear video from Paul Lorenz ( a very very good instructor from New Zealand) on how to get from wedge turns or from stem christies to parallel turns. He mentions that there are a number of things one can do, but in this video he chooses to focus on rolling the new inside ski's knee downhill. @EdithP, I remember that your instructor had you do this knee-roll, moving that downhill/new-inside-knee down toward the snow. You can get the subtitles in Polish! You'll notice that he mentions "lifting the arch" which we've discussed somewhere recently.

And here's the web page where he posts this video:
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
@marzNC, did you find the carpet there more difficult than snow? How much of a beginner were you when you did your one lesson there?
Do they only have one carpet?
I was a confident advanced skier when I went to Inside Ski. They only have one MaxxTracks set up. The instructor was a young woman who may or may not have taught skiing on snow before starting to work at Inside Ski.

I went for curiosity to take a free lesson I got as a perk for contributing to a fundraiser that helped defray the installation cost. Inside Ski is connected to a small family-owned ski shop near Washington DC. It's not that close to where I live, but I could stop by during a driving trip on the way north when my daughter was in school in New England.

I didn't get comfortable making turns without holding onto the safety bar until the middle of the second 10-min teaching interval. We started with a wedge turn. I know I fell at least once. Towards the end of the third interval, I was traveling on the entire carpet making parallel turns. It took far more concentration than when making turns on snow.

@alison wong and @Ski Sine Fine have taken lessons at Inside Ski with a very experienced ski instructor they also worked with on snow.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
Found a few videos for the MaxxTracks rolling carpet system.

First video is from 2014 at a trade show. (Same guys who recently reviewed Big SNOW American Dream.). The company rep (seems to be from The Netherlands) told the guys that if they spent 10 hours, presumably 10 1-hour lessons, they would learn to ski. He also notes that the angle of the slope and the speed can be changed.

Second video is from Dublin. Might help instructors who haven't seen MaxxTracks get a sense of how it works. Seems to be a demonstration for training instructors but there is no commentary while the skiing in happening. You can hear the speed of the carpet changing.

The third video is a time-lapse of the installation at Inside Ski in 2017. The retail shop is in next door. The room with the MaxxTracks is just big enough for it on one end and the rental gear on the other.



 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Here's a very clear video from Paul Lorenz ( a very very good instructor from New Zealand) on how to get from wedge turns or from stem christies to parallel turns. He mentions that there are a number of things one can do, but in this video he chooses to focus on rolling the new inside ski's knee downhill. @EdithP, I remember that your instructor had you do this knee-roll, moving that downhill/new-inside-knee down toward the snow. You can get the subtitles in Polish! You'll notice that he mentions "lifting the arch" which we've discussed somewhere recently.

And here's the web page where he posts this video:
I have just revisited this part. Sorry to say that it is only now it is really hitting home. I had thought it did back then, but somehow I was not connecting what I saw to actual moves I should be doing. It is inded very difficult to get in several aspects of skiing at once and I was concentrating on getting that shin pressure on the light leg right...I let nothing else in properly, it seems.
 

EdithP

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I have recently re-read everything that everybody was suggesting, advising or sharing here for me since I have first posted in March. One thing is obvious: until you are actually doing those things it is very hard to really understand what they are and how they work. In a way a bit of a vicious circle. But no. It is from trying to get those moves down , following the suggestions, and then being corrected and the trial and error process that the learning happens. It was for me a very valuable experience in the actual psychological process of learning new things. And of course, it is not over yet.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
Such good news! I’m guessing that many pieces will start to fit together. This has happened to me, and it’s a great feeling.
 

Abbi

Angel Diva
@liquidfeet - my turn to ask something, since you are wonderful at explaining. For years (forever?) the terms 'inside/outside' ski has defied my brain. Inside or outside of what? Uphill? Downhill? And they change, when? AUUGH!! :frusty:

This ought to translate to a sailor's brain which understands when a spinnaker sheet changes to be a spinnaker guy when the boat turns going downwind.
 

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