Help Needed: Knee Bend vs Ankle Flex

[snoWYmonkey]

I encourage everyone that struggles with their balance to try all of the suggestions put forth on this thread. I also want to stress how important it is to see which approach gives results.

Personally, and for many of my instructing and former USSA national D team colleagues pulling the toes up inside the boot is not a movement that aids them in skiing balance. In an ideal world the boot fit does not require this move. If I sit on a chair and lift my toes up it does little to adjust my balance. It does help create more tension of my foot inside the boot. I prefer having the added balance under my toes than above my toes relative to the solid structure of the boot.

In a turn for most skiers, the pressure points under the foot and to the sides change throughout the turn, in the same way that we both supinate and pronate our feet throughout a series of steps. Because skiing is not a static position the pressure distribution on the soles of our feet is not static either. This is where the many hours of individual boot work can come into play to get a perfect or near perfect fit as we each have such different anatomies.

Keep trying all the different suggestions and have your instructor address your movements from top to bottom. Spending enough time I'm super easy runs in order to start to tune in to what feels right rather than having someone tell you what seems right it's going to be really helpful too. Maybe have someone video you as that can often help us understand what it is we want to try to fine tune.

 

[mustski]

If a skier can get the tibialis anterior muscle to dorsiflex the ankle without lifting the toes, then another very beneficial movement becomes possible.

Lifting the middle of the foot so that it contacts the ceiling in the boot, as shown in this image below, and keeping it there, does wonders for skiing. This lift is a separate movement from dorsiflexing or toe lifting. It's small but powerful.

This mid-foot lift (assuming dorsiflexion is present as well) drives the heel back into the heel pocket where it belongs, presses the heel downward onto the footbed properly, and locks the ankle dorsiflexion in place so distractions and surprises during turns don't lead to ankle-opening. Losing the dorsiflexion is common when concentration is broken, and an open ankle puts the skier in the back seat.

I recommend anyone reading this give the mid-foot lift a try. Please report back!
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My foot won’t do that at all. When I tried it, my toes curled under. Again my dorsiflexion issues are caused by bone inhibition so my feet are not like other folks’.

 

[liquidfeet]

It is amazing how different we all are. Different cues for different people deliver similar results. So yes, try it all and see for yourself what works. It takes a village, right?

 

[KLW]

I don't do any other sports, really! I jog, sometimes. I skate in the winter. I bike for leisure. That's about it. Maybe that's my problem! I do aim to exercise more this year, so my plan was to integrate some workouts that help strengthen myself for skiing. Any recommendations?

I recommend balance exercises. Lots of balance exercises over and over including the morning before you head out to ski. Skiing is not something you’ll pick up in a week or 2. It’s takes lots of practice and a willingness to fall and get back up. Be patient. Balance is key more so then strength because once you gain balance you won’t be sitting back in your skis doing wall sits. That’s why your instructor was telling you to stand more upright. If that makes sense. My advice is don’t give up. You will improve and focus on micro improvements and you’ll get better.

 

[JO-ski]

I recommend balance exercises. Lots of balance exercises over and over including the morning before you head out to ski. Skiing is not something you’ll pick up in a week or 2. It’s takes lots of practice and a willingness to fall and get back up. Be patient. Balance is key more so then strength because once you gain balance you won’t be sitting back in your skis doing wall sits. That’s why your instructor was telling you to stand more upright. If that makes sense. My advice is don’t give up. You will improve and focus on micro improvements and you’ll get better.

Thank you! I will look into that. That last couple of days, I've been paying attention to the way I walk. I notice that I don't really put pressure on the balls of my feet when I casually walk. And then when I do focus on doing that, it feels better. I also found some foot mobility exercises from a physio that I follow online. Walking lunges is another thing that I was going to try. I will try everything out! Exercise is better than no exercise!

 

[diymom]

Would the wedge be under my heel? Is this 'cheating'??

As already mentioned, it would not be "cheating" in any way. It is just one more way the boot fitter can adjust the boot to best fit your individual anatomy. And it is not a "fix" for everybody. I had a pair of boots that came with what was called a "lady lift" in the box. (ugh, awful name) But out of curiosity I popped them into my boots for a bit one year. I gave them a decent number of ski days to see if it was just a question of adjusting to them, but nope. Instead of helping me to get more forward they put me in the back seat.

 

[MarzSkiAddict]

Interesting!! Maybe I should go to a shop with a good boot fitter? I had my boots moulded a little bit a couple of seasons in with them. But maybe I could go back. I wasn't convinced that they were experts in fitting though.

Would the wedge be under my heel? Is this 'cheating'??

Yes under the heel

 

[MarzSkiAddict]

Yes under the heel. I don't think this is cheating if it works.

 

[JO-ski]

Here's a follow up thought/question... Some do well with lifting their toes to get forward. I've also watched some videos by Deb Armstrong and she repeatedly instructs her students to put pressure at the front of the ski/boot. I'm interpreting this as similar advice as putting pressure on the balls of the feet and relaxing the toes. If I lift my toes, pressure is automatically put on the balls of my feet. What are people's experiences? I really feel like this was the missing key to getting myself to get forward. Before this discussion, I've only heard people instruct me to bend the ankles and "don't sit back." That's been really hard to do without other specific guidance, like "lift the toes" or "put pressure on the balls of the feet." I'm thankful this conversation went into such detail!

 

[Jilly]

In your next lesson, mention to the instructor that "don't sit back" isn't working. We have lots of tricks to get the same outcome. That's why I asked if you did any other sports. That usually helps people relate. My DH was the worst for hands too low. Finally one instructor asked him what he did for living. DH replied..construction. Instructor - OK, pick up your wheelbarrow and lets go. That worked. He'd never ridden a bike, that the tray are the usual instructions. Wheelbarrow worked for him because he could relate.

There is "squish the grape". ie there is grape between your shin and the boot tongue. Squish the grape! So just stand there and squish the grape. Leave your butt out of it and stand tall from the waist up.

 

[liquidfeet]

Here's a follow up thought/question... Some do well with lifting their toes to get forward. I've also watched some videos by Deb Armstrong and she repeatedly instructs her students to put pressure at the front of the ski/boot. I'm interpreting this as similar advice as putting pressure on the balls of the feet and relaxing the toes. If I lift my toes, pressure is automatically put on the balls of my feet. What are people's experiences? I really feel like this was the missing key to getting myself to get forward. Before this discussion, I've only heard people instruct me to bend the ankles and "don't sit back." That's been really hard to do without other specific guidance, like "lift the toes" or "put pressure on the balls of the feet." I'm thankful this conversation went into such detail!

I love your questions. They make me think.

Skiing is not intuitive. The intuitive thing when one starts skiing is to lean back, sit back, hold back, to avoid falling on one's face. Slipping on a slipper surface enacts this reaction at first. Leaning back in any way puts the skier in the back seat, which lightens the front end of the ski (shovel), so that the shovel doesn't contribute to the turn much. Good control of one's speed and direction requires that the whole ski be weighted and in contact with the snow, from tip to tail.

The point of paying attention to bottom-of-foot pressure, of keeping the shin in contact with the boot tongue, of dorsiflexing the ankles, of getting and being forward, of skiing with hands and arms out front, of not allowing the arms to swing (as we do in walking), of avoiding sitting back, of avoiding leaning back, and a bunch of other things instructors tell skiers, is to keep the front of the ski pressed onto the snow so one is using the entire length of the ski. This one thing, keeping the front of the ski (shovel) engaged on the snow, contributes more than anything else to the feelings of security and confidence that come from control of speed and direction of travel.

The way to keep the front end of the ski contacting the snow surface is to keep your shin tilted forward so it stays in contact with the boot tongue (through continual ankle flex) and to hover your upper body's mass forward above the front of the boot and/or ski. That's it for staying "forward."

Doing these two things means that one's hovering body weigh will press downward onto the shin/boot tongue. This downward pressure will hinge the cuff forward, which in turn will will press the front of the boot and the front of the ski downward. In other words, when the boot tongue gets pressured *, it makes the boot act like a lever that tilts the shovel of the ski downward. This is what we want. **

The pressure one feels along the bottom of the foot as it contacts the footbed is not a cause, it's a result. It's a signal of where and how effectively the body weight is pushing downward onto the boot/ski. Instructors tell students various things about managing underfoot pressure. Most now say to keep ball-of-foot and heel equally weighted, or they say focus weight on the arch These two are similar. Some instructors are holdovers from the past; they say focus weight on the ball-of-foot. A few say focus weight just at the back end of the arch/very front of the heel (arch-heel) which is right under the tibia. Choose whom to follow; try them all and see how they work for you. Focusing on bottom of foot pressure can enact ankle flex and body weight positioning, and focusing on ankle flex and body weight positioning can enact bottom of foot pressure. Different cues work for different people.

But remember the issue for all instructions relative to bottom-of-foot pressure is having the entire ski stay in contact with the snow so the ski's entire length contributes to the skier's chosen speed and direction. Lifting the toes may strengthen the ball-of-foot contact with the footbed inside the boot, but it does not put meaningful pressure on the front of the ski because it does not contribute to the shin-tongue contact nor where the body weight hovers above the ski.

For a skier whose body holds more of its weight below the belly button than above it, getting enough body weight hovering forward may require more ankle-flex and/or more forward positioning of the hips than one might think at first. Keep this in mind.

* The cuff needs to fit properly around the leg for the skier to be able to get the boot to act as a lever pressing the shovel downward. The cuff needs to be snug around the lower leg, and its flex needs to be stiff enough to not fold forward too much. The boot won't act as a lever if the only thing tilting forward is the tongue. The spine, the back of the boot cuff, also needs to tilt forward. So, make sure the whole lower leg is firmly and snugly held against the back of the boot so that tongue-shin tilting also tilts the spine.
** The back of the ski also needs to be pressed down onto the snow. So keep the heel firmly planted on the footbed. Do not allow the heel to lift. Having ski boots fit properly means the heels cannot lift inside the boot. But this is not enough to keep the whole ski pressed onto the snow. One must allow some weight to press down through the heel onto the footbed. It is possible to ski "too far forward." If one does this, the tails will wash out at the end of the turn and the skis will lose their grip when the pressures are highest.

 

[JO-ski]

I love that you love my detailed and slightly neurotic questions!

keep the front of the ski pressed onto the snow so one is using the entire length of the ski. This one thing, keeping the front of the ski (shovel) engaged on the snow, contributes more than anything else to the feelings of security and confidence that come from control of speed and direction of travel.

This! I have to make this my mantra. It's counterintuitive to trust that falling and leaning towards the slope is going to give the most control.

"Bend at the ankles" is definitely not a good cute for me because what I end up doing at the spur of the moment when I realize I'm sitting backseat is to just bend my knees and waist. This probably makes everything worse.

Yesterday, when I was at the schoolyard with my daughter, I went on a grassy hill pretending I had skiis on, and stood diagonally on the hill facing down, as of in traversing the hill. I totally understand why it's so hard for me to lean forward and dorsiflex. It's simply that sensation of probably falling on my face and with the momentum of actually going down the hill, I lean ever so slightly back for half a second, even on a grassy hill.

Maybe I have to do just that - just practice the sensation on dry land on a hill. Do people do this? Maybe it's not that productive because I'm not in motion. But I think it's a bit helpful to understand my instincts and certain sensations.

 

[diymom]

"Bend at the ankles" is definitely not a good cute for me because what I end up doing at the spur of the moment when I realize I'm sitting backseat is to just bend my knees and waist.

If I start feeling like I'm backseat, I try to move my pelvis forward, which then seems to bring me a little more upright and closes my ankles more.

just practice the sensation on dry land on a hill. Do people do this?

The issue with doing it in shoes is that you don't have anything in front of you to stop you from falling forwards. If you do it with ski boots and skis on, you have the length of the ski in front of you to support you. I have been in lessons where the group was told to lean forward (kind of like a ski jumper but not as extreme) on a flat to experience how the ski will keep you from falling on your face. So if you do want to get used to the feeling of being more forward, I suggest trying it with your skis on.

 

[scandium]

I love that you love my detailed and slightly neurotic questions!


This! I have to make this my mantra. It's counterintuitive to trust that falling and leaning towards the slope is going to give the most control.

"Bend at the ankles" is definitely not a good cute for me because what I end up doing at the spur of the moment when I realize I'm sitting backseat is to just bend my knees and waist. This probably makes everything worse.

Yesterday, when I was at the schoolyard with my daughter, I went on a grassy hill pretending I had skiis on, and stood diagonally on the hill facing down, as of in traversing the hill. I totally understand why it's so hard for me to lean forward and dorsiflex. It's simply that sensation of probably falling on my face and with the momentum of actually going down the hill, I lean ever so slightly back for half a second, even on a grassy hill.

Maybe I have to do just that - just practice the sensation on dry land on a hill. Do people do this? Maybe it's not that productive because I'm not in motion. But I think it's a bit helpful to understand my instincts and certain sensations.

Practice it on dry land clipped into your skis on carpet. You want the feedback from your boots.

 

[JO-ski]

Practice it on dry land clipped into your skis on carpet. You want the feedback from your boots.

@diymom and @scandium I will have to try this. And ignore the possible stares I get at the park for being the weirdo with the skis on the grassy hill

 

[marzNC]

Maybe I have to do just that - just practice the sensation on dry land on a hill. Do people do this? Maybe it's not that productive because I'm not in motion. But I think it's a bit helpful to understand my instincts and certain sensations.

The PSIA L3 instructor I've d worked with on and off for a decade suggested something like that a few years ago. Essentially "traversing" by walking diagonally across a hill that was a steeper green or easier blue at our home hill. In regular shoes, not with ski boots and skis on. Then turning and going back the other way. One point to remember was facing down the fall line. Or as another of my instructors put it, face the belly button down the hill. Also good to keep the hands out about where would be holding poles.

 

[liquidfeet]

It's simply that sensation of probably falling on my face and with the momentum of actually going down the hill, I lean ever so slightly back for half a second, even on a grassy hill.

Maybe I have to do just that - just practice the sensation on dry land on a hill. Do people do this? Maybe it's not that productive because I'm not in motion. But I think it's a bit helpful to understand my instincts and certain sensations.

Do people do this? Do they practice downhill skiing by running downhill?

I have done it, in the past. Not now. I used to do multiple trail runs every week when I lived just north of Boston. These runs were in the woods, on rocky-rooty uppie-downie twistie-turny single track mountain bike trails near my house. This area was a mecca for technical mountain bike riding.

My runs required running downhill as well as uphill. On the downhills I practiced keeping my foot plants as far back as possible on those downhill runs. This was good, but demanded a lot of courage. I did learn, eventually, to keep my foot plants back up under me, not out in front. Imagine your body floating downhill at a consistent height above the grass on a hill. Your feet do foot circles below your body, keeping up with the speed of your floating self. The function of your legs, as you float downhill this way, it to keep your body from descending closer to the grass as you float. That was my aim as I taught my feet to do foot circles beneath and behind me, never out front. I did feel like I was floating down the hill, with gravity pulling me along and my suspension beneath me keeping me afloat.

Running downhill with forward footplants is really bad for the knees. The natural desire to plant the lead foot downhill-of-self is strong. But doing that delivers higher impact on the knees with every stride. One can do serious damage to the knees running downhill if the feet touch down forward and downhill of the body. I ran this way on the trails before I figured out how to place my feet properly, and those knees still suffer from that damage I did.

So I don't recommend downhill running, even on grass, especially if you are prone to doing things with caution. Your body will be determined to put your feet ahead of you with every stride and you'll obey its demands. Your knees will suffer.

On skis keeping both feet downhill of the body is due to the same urge the body has when running downhill - it creates back seat skiing.

 

[JO-ski]

Do people do this? Do they practice downhill skiing by running downhill?

I have done it, in the past. Not now. I used to do multiple trail runs every week when I lived just north of Boston. These runs were in the woods, on rocky-rooty uppie-downie twistie-turny single track mountain bike trails near my house. This area was a mecca for technical mountain bike riding.

My runs required running downhill as well as uphill. On the downhills I practiced keeping my foot plants as far back as possible on those downhill runs. This was good, but demanded a lot of courage. I did learn, eventually, to keep my foot plants back up under me, not out in front. Imagine your body floating downhill at a consistent height above the grass on a hill. Your feet do foot circles below your body, keeping up with the speed of your floating self. The function of your legs, as you float downhill this way, it to keep your body from descending closer to the grass as you float. That was my aim as I taught my feet to do foot circles beneath and behind me, never out front. I did feel like I was floating down the hill, with gravity pulling me along and my suspension beneath me keeping me afloat.

Running downhill with forward footplants is really bad for the knees. The natural desire to plant the lead foot downhill-of-self is strong. But doing that delivers higher impact on the knees with every stride. One can do serious damage to the knees running downhill if the feet touch down forward and downhill of the body. I ran this way on the trails before I figured out how to place my feet properly, and those knees still suffer from that damage I did.

So I don't recommend downhill running, even on grass, especially if you are prone to doing things with caution. Your body will be determined to put your feet ahead of you with every stride and you'll obey its demands. Your knees will suffer.

On skis keeping both feet downhill of the body is due to the same urge the body has when running downhill - it creates back seat skiing.

@marzNC This sounds helpful! I will try it, but slowly (considering @liquidfeet 's cautions above).

@liquidfeet OOoooh I can picture everything you're saying. I have never done trail running. But I totally understand what you're saying and about your cautioning with the foot plant downhill in front of the body. I will not run down the hills.

I actually used to be a runner. Not competitive or very serious. But I was a consistent casual runner. I used to do 6km 3 times a week and like skiing, I got really into paying attention to my body to see what mechanics would help me run better. Foot planting was a huge thing for me. I learned to plant my feet at the centre instead of on my heel or on the balls of my feet. I also learned how to lean slightly forward while I ran to let gravity help me power forward. And ah-ha! This is dorsiflexion!!! But it's dorsiflexing on flat land. Which is a lot easier and less scary than skiing. The main difference that I'm trying to learn is to push down on my feet on the outside ski to stay forward, which is something you don't do while running, or else you'd expend too much energy.

 

[Jilly]

It's not really a "push" on that downhill ski. It should be a weight transfer to it. Pushing will not get that ski on edge to hold.

A Warren Jobbit tidbit - standing on the side of the hill in a skiing position, lower your downhill shoulder. Then lower your full body, still in the neutral stance. Weight is on the downhill ski. Warren will say "squat" but that's not really what it is.

 

[JO-ski]

It's not really a "push" on that downhill ski. It should be a weight transfer to it. Pushing will not get that ski on edge to hold.

A Warren Jobbit tidbit - standing on the side of the hill in a skiing position, lower your downhill shoulder. Then lower your full body, still in the neutral stance. Weight is on the downhill ski. Warren will say "squat" but that's not really what it is.

I definitely do NOT want to think about squatting. I know that will get me in my backseat. I guess I say "push" because that's what triggers me mentally to put weight on that foot. Like it's a pedal. I need a mental trigger that's more "direct" so that I do it when I'm in motion. If it's too subtle of a reminder, things will move so fast that I won't do it enough. Does that make sense?