Killington Base Village Gets Financial Approval from Vermont

[ski diva]

As someone who lives half an hour from Killington, I found this article on Unofficial Networks particularly interesting.

The upshot: a base village at the resort with more than 1500 residences, a new hotel, 35,000 square feet of retail space, restaurants, bars, and a skier bridge between Ramshead and Snowshed mountains. Oh, and affordable housing for employees.

The Vermont Economic Progress Council approved the town of Killington Tax Increment Finance (TIF) district which allows “municipalities to pay off infrastructure bonds using tax revenue generated by having that infrastructure built.” Next up will be a town vote in November, and if that gets approved without a hitch, construction could begin in the spring of 2023.

 

[liquidfeet]

That will change things. If Killington gets crowded now imagine what it will be like once those new hotel rooms are actively renting.

I wonder how much lodging for employees is involved, and how much the renters will be charged. It's so good that this is included in the proposal.

 

[ski diva]

I'm wondering about the environmental impact of all this. Vermont is pretty strict in that area.. And I'm curious about the impact this will have on roads in the vicinity.

 

[Skivt2]

Can’t even imagine the parking disaster. Say goodbye to the Rams head lot, the snow shed lot, half the Bear lot and maybe even the Vail lot. Right now with all those lots they run out of parking. What happens when the upper snow shed lot is the closest you can get to the Rams head and snow shed lifts where beginners should be starting. Will sending all the newbies from a shuttle down at the wobbly be a good idea? Yickes! The good parking situation has always been a competitive advantage for Killington. Looks like the mess that was left by ASC will finally come home to roost. The mounatin is not the owner of the village property. It went to SPLand in the deal. Now they are finally coming to take their money. To hell with the skier experience. Way to kill the golden goose.

 

[echo_VT]

I'm pretty excited to hear it. Killington has definitely seen some wear and tear over the years (thinking back to 2006 when I had a season pass there!), the area could use the investment to continue as a destination in the east. I think an infusion of updates would be great.

Side note on parking: When ski villages get to a certain size, buses are more economical, and driving is not really an option unless it's paid parking or brief parking for picking up/dropping off. One village that comes to mind is Whistler village and they have a great bus system going which makes things SO much easier. Jackson Hole is another that comes to mind with a decent bus system. I would guess there would be transport considerations at Killington as well. They're trying to do the bus system at Stowe but unfortunately it can't work as it's just one road and the town of Stowe is totally separate from the resort.

When I went to Killington in early March it was all but deserted which made me sad. The more business Killington can generate, the more likely we bring people into skiing, the bigger the sport gets and the longevity possibilities it has increases. Lowering the bar to entry, all that stuff. That's good to hear about affordable housing for employees, that's been a real struggle this past year generally speaking, at Stowe as well.

The environmental pieces I hope have been addressed in the proposal and I doubt that it would get approved without it esp. in Vermont. I know Vail is trying to get to net zero emissions by some future deadline and I hope that influences other major resorts to follow suit.

 

[lisaski]

I'm currently reading a book called "Downhill Slide: Why the Corporate Ski Industry is Bad for Skiing". It basically states that across all US resorts, skier days has been kind of flat for decades. As a result, the corporate ski industry has basically gone into the real estate business where they build villages with retail shops that give the ski company a cut of their profits. They build condos that offer owners the option to have nightly rentals, where again the ski corporation takes a 50% profit from the nightly rentals. These type of villages make huge amounts of money for the ski corporation and they totally change the vibe and character of the resort. In my years, I have seen this happen over and over again.

 

[echo_VT]

I don’t know but I’d guess the real estate support ski resort operations and jobs in the vicinity. I understand ski resort operations are costly and not particularly profitable. There are dozens of abandoned resorts in NY and in the NE generally. That is worrying if fewer visits mean ski hills businesses go under.

Same real estate benefits of an influx of cash goes for an actual ski town such as Lake Tahoe or truckee. I don’t think the towns would do as well if they didn’t have the mountain resorts (say if the attraction was just the lake) but I haven’t an idea on the numbers.

Also thinking of smaller resorts such as Hunter or Windham in NY. Would those places get the tourism they get without the mountain operations? Probably not.

ski operations especially dependent on making snow and the cost it takes to run those to cover the slopes for particularly warm areas. One of main advantages that Hunter had was its thorough snow making capacity allowing them to open early and close later.

Vail has figured out a way to make profit (seems like combining the benefits of a multi ski resort pass like mountain collective, Ikon pass in addition to real estate and multiple ski resorts) but most ski conglomerates don’t seem to be doing as financially well as Vail. Thinking of Intrawest, Alterra. Or smaller mountains too.

the costs associated with ski resorts seem to have risen over the years. it would be interesting to know by how much in same-dollar terms from days in the past vs current. Why was it easier to set up back then vs now.

we also have ski hills like Cochrans that have a short vertical drop, tow ropes and gear toward the skiing youth. It’s nice that there’s still a market for this as well, but could not sustain visitor numbers that a major resort would have or aspire to have.

 

[Skivt2]

You Guys know that the resort does not own the village property right? It’s owned by the investment firm SPLand that gained the property as ASC was on the verge of bankruptcy. I am a local and I expect to be able to ski my lunch hour if I can break away for an hour or two. I can’t do that if I have to shuttle in. The core skier locals make a place what it is. we Pay $268 a month every month for two season passes. Id be shocked if Killington is not profitable. It’s run by a guy who is the best in the business. It’s owned by Powdr Corp. the village will be a sterile concrete mess like a little city and will destroy the place. The closest parking to the beginner lifts will be a mile a away. And that’s if you get one of the few spaces there otherwise you’ll shuttle in from several miles away. Believe me when I say this is NOT a good thing. It’s all about a Texas real estate firm with no ski resort ownership trying to make a buck off an investment that has performed poorly for them for 20 years. Hopefully the real estate market tanks before they break ground and the thing gets postponed for decades.

 

[Skivt2]

I'm currently reading a book called "Downhill Slide: Why the Corporate Ski Industry is Bad for Skiing". It basically states that across all US resorts, skier days has been kind of flat for decades. As a result, the corporate ski industry has basically gone into the real estate business where they build villages with retail shops that give the ski company a cut of their profits. They build condos that offer owners the option to have nightly rentals, where again the ski corporation takes a 50% profit from the nightly rentals. These type of villages make huge amounts of money for the ski corporation and they totally change the vibe and character of the resort. In my years, I have seen this happen over and over again.

Except this one is not being developed by the resort.

 

[echo_VT]

That’s really interesting. At Stowe the village property is owned by AIG, Vail declined to buy it. So is the idea to let others develop properties to make it appealing to visitors and reap the benefits of an increase in visitors at the hill, maybe also ski lessons and more consumers at the local shops? Is that part of their plan?

I doubt midweek would be an issue (non holiday) in terms of traffic for your lunch hour(s)… I can definitely see possibly weekends being the issue and definitely holidays. Can you carpool with someone?

also that’s really neat if you can pay for the season pass monthly. I’ve never heard of that possibility anywhere on any hill. Back in 2006 I had to pay for the pass up front for Killy, but I think it was somewhat like $800 as it excluded holidays and blockout dates.

 

[marzNC]

At Stowe the village property is owned by AIG, Vail declined to buy it. So is the idea to let others develop properties to make it appealing to visitors and reap the benefits of an increase in visitors at the hill, maybe also ski lessons and more consumers at the local shops? Is that part of their plan?

It's become a more common business approach in the last decade or so. For instance, Boyne Resorts didn't bother to build another resort hotel but instead there is now a Residence Inn and a luxury hotel is being developed by a separate company. Similar situation at a few Alterra resorts.

A key reason American Ski Company (ASC) didn't last long was the dependence on resort lodging and real estate sales.

One of the changes made by the CEO of Vail Resorts before Rob Katz was to decrease the emphasis on real estate development. VR still owns quite a bit of resort lodging but has been spending big money on new lifts and other on-slope projects, not hotels and condos.

Ski Inc. and Ski Inc. 2000 by Chris Diamond are good reading for anyone interested in the destination resorts in North America. He had first hand experience running resorts in the northeast and Steamboat before retiring.

 

[MissySki]

You Guys know that the resort does not own the village property right? It’s owned by the investment firm SPLand that gained the property as ASC was on the verge of bankruptcy. I am a local and I expect to be able to ski my lunch hour if I can break away for an hour or two. I can’t do that if I have to shuttle in. The core skier locals make a place what it is. we Pay $268 a month every month for two season passes. Id be shocked if Killington is not profitable. It’s run by a guy who is the best in the business. It’s owned by Powdr Corp. the village will be a sterile concrete mess like a little city and will destroy the place. The closest parking to the beginner lifts will be a mile a away. And that’s if you get one of the few spaces there otherwise you’ll shuttle in from several miles away. Believe me when I say this is NOT a good thing. It’s all about a Texas real estate firm with no ski resort ownership trying to make a buck off an investment that has performed poorly for them for 20 years. Hopefully the real estate market tanks before they break ground and the thing gets postponed for decades.

It’s probably a good bet that providing easy access to midweek lunchtime skiers is pretty far down the list of priorities where all of this is concerned. The point is always tourism, and drawing in people who spend lots of money far beyond passes. It just is what it is, and Killington is a huge draw for tourists.

 

[NewEnglandSkier]

Yeah, I'm of the same mind as @Skivt2 . Part of the advantage to Killington is the relatively easy and convenient parking. No shuttles required. I tend to avoid day tripping to places that require a parking shuttle. But I guess that is part of the grand village plan---try to entice people to purchase lodging.
I guess there is still Pico, which I love as well, but hopefully they never build the official interconnect, as I fear that will get wrecked too.

 

[MissySki]

Yeah, I'm of the same mind as @Skivt2 . Part of the advantage to Killington is the relatively easy and convenient parking. No shuttles required. I tend to avoid day tripping to places that require a parking shuttle. But I guess that is part of the grand village plan---try to entice people to purchase lodging.
I guess there is still Pico, which I love as well, but hopefully they never build the official interconnect, as I fear that will get wrecked too.

I agree, shuttles suck for skiing. Thank goodness Sunday River has so many lots you can start and end at. I’ve realized it’s a big perk to own a condo on mountain now just for the parking spot trailside.. and not something that was even on my mind when buying.

 

[lisaski]

Except this one is not being developed by the resort.

Does Killington own the land? If so, they likely decided to outsource management of real estate sales, lodging and retail and have an agreement with the developer for a percentage of proceeds.

 

[elemmac]

Does Killington own the land? If so, they likely decided to outsource management of real estate sales, lodging and retail and have an agreement with the developer for a percentage of proceeds.

I went down the internet rabbit hole of information earlier...from Killington, VT tax maps, SP Land owns most of the land around the Killington base area, including where the village will be built. (Side note: they also own two lots called "PICO EAST" and "PICO WEST", which I couldn't locate directly on the map...but it piqued my interest).

My understanding is that Powdr Corp and SP Land Co have been partners since the purchase of Killington from ASC. Basically Powdr runs the ski resort, and SP Land runs the real estate. SP Land knows how to develop land, Powdr Corp knows how to run a resort...kind of a match made in heaven for a destination ski resort.