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Issues with Counter/Upper body separation

kmb5662

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I've been taking lessons over the years and have been fortunate to have already had several this season. When it comes to short radius turns I don't really have too many issues with counter/upper body separation but once I get into medium to large radius turns especially in the moguls and when it's steep and deep things seem to fall apart.

At the recommendations of my instructors I've been practicing pivot slips, the angulation drill (I think it might also be called superman?), and skiing with my hands on my hips to further improve awareness. It's likely that I just need more mileage to help develop that muscle memory and kill off those bad habits but I wanted to see if any ladies here have any other tricks up their sleeve or things that really worked/clicked for them when it comes to this issue?
 

kmb5662

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Do you Javelin turns?
I have in the past but not at all yet this season. I will definitely add those to the mix.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
A couple of thoughts based on my observations of top level skiers in the various disciplines. Bumps, steeps and short radius groomer turns, lots of separation. Medium, and especially large radius, not so much. That is not to say that there is none. Have some fun searching for photos of the same skier in the different disciplines, and of course looking at Ron le Master photos is great too (RIP).

You mention pivot slips (I assume with no issues staying with feet right over a real or imaginary line?) but these in and of themselves do not guarantee that the separation is happening. What has the feedback been from your instructors on the short radius not in bumps?

Maybe a video link or upload would be super helpful of you doing short radius on groomed and in bumps as well as medium long turns.

As instructors we all have slightly different takes on the separation matter, and I like to defer back to one of my trainers on the national PSIA team, as I asked her the question, and she confirmed my standard answer to how much of it: it depends (on radius and skis and skier and conditions).

In terms of how I would help someone who needs more of it, I would begin oddly enough with the head and the vision. In most cases, the head and eyes, especially in bumps, tend to revert back to looking across the hill rather than down the hill. I am convinced that if we are looking across and the skis are more or less across in order to scrub speed as well, there is about zero chance of being able to have the torso face down the hill. Start with where you are looking and your head is facing. If you have someone who can watch you in bumps have them tell you if they saw the entire goggle from below or if they ended up seeing both sides of you goggle straps as your head turns to look at where the next bump is.

Once the head/vision matter is consistently looking down hill, return to the pivot slips, and then start applying them to bumps, as that is what that drill really helps with in my experience.

Another thought has to do with ankle/knee/hip flex. If we don't have enough flex, it is to have the skis difficult pointing in a direction that is slightly different from the torso and head, as the range of motion is greatly restricted. It can be done, but then it is mostly twisting of the spine, rather than turning of the legs in the hip socket that is creating the separation. Not as powerful and stable.

I do have some drills I like but they are hard to describe. One I call 'poles to pits', another that is used a lot more often is having a person lay on their back with knees and hips each bent at 90 degrees and rotating the femurs to have the knees pointing first to one side then to the other. That is the ultimate separation drill as the back can remain stationary facing at the ceiling or sky, while the legs are doing all the work. Another one, also to convoluted to describe with words, involves no poles, and pushing the uphill knee with the downhill hand at the end of the turn.

For angulation, which is also part of good skiing, but slightly different from separation, as I can have one without the other and vice versa, I like outrigger pole drills, which have to be done carefully as they can create a horrible stance for some skiers. USSA drill here is a link to USSA where kid and adult are seen doing the drill.

Both PSIA and USSA have drills for each major aspect of skiing that can be very useful.

Best of luck.
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
At Taos, what we are learning in advanced Ski Weeks is that the pole touch/plant is key in bumps and steeps. Where the tip of the pole is "looking" can help keep the loss of upper/lower body separation from happening.

Last year a tip I and my ski buddy got from our Ski Week instructor was to think about where the shoulders are facing, not just the hands. It's in my notes I'm reviewing while I'm doing a second Private Ski Week with the same instructor. Not forcing where the shoulder(s) are facing, but just being aware of shoulders as a starting point. Like everything else, there is a good side and a bad side. The difference in my shoulders is very noticeable. Even though after a few years of deliberate work, there is essentially no difference between my left and right turns as far as what's going on for my lower body.
 

kmb5662

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
A couple of thoughts based on my observations of top level skiers in the various disciplines. Bumps, steeps and short radius groomer turns, lots of separation. Medium, and especially large radius, not so much. That is not to say that there is none. Have some fun searching for photos of the same skier in the different disciplines, and of course looking at Ron le Master photos is great too (RIP).

You mention pivot slips (I assume with no issues staying with feet right over a real or imaginary line?) but these in and of themselves do not guarantee that the separation is happening. What has the feedback been from your instructors on the short radius not in bumps?

Maybe a video link or upload would be super helpful of you doing short radius on groomed and in bumps as well as medium long turns.

As instructors we all have slightly different takes on the separation matter, and I like to defer back to one of my trainers on the national PSIA team, as I asked her the question, and she confirmed my standard answer to how much of it: it depends (on radius and skis and skier and conditions).

In terms of how I would help someone who needs more of it, I would begin oddly enough with the head and the vision. In most cases, the head and eyes, especially in bumps, tend to revert back to looking across the hill rather than down the hill. I am convinced that if we are looking across and the skis are more or less across in order to scrub speed as well, there is about zero chance of being able to have the torso face down the hill. Start with where you are looking and your head is facing. If you have someone who can watch you in bumps have them tell you if they saw the entire goggle from below or if they ended up seeing both sides of you goggle straps as your head turns to look at where the next bump is.

Once the head/vision matter is consistently looking down hill, return to the pivot slips, and then start applying them to bumps, as that is what that drill really helps with in my experience.

Another thought has to do with ankle/knee/hip flex. If we don't have enough flex, it is to have the skis difficult pointing in a direction that is slightly different from the torso and head, as the range of motion is greatly restricted. It can be done, but then it is mostly twisting of the spine, rather than turning of the legs in the hip socket that is creating the separation. Not as powerful and stable.

I do have some drills I like but they are hard to describe. One I call 'poles to pits', another that is used a lot more often is having a person lay on their back with knees and hips each bent at 90 degrees and rotating the femurs to have the knees pointing first to one side then to the other. That is the ultimate separation drill as the back can remain stationary facing at the ceiling or sky, while the legs are doing all the work. Another one, also to convoluted to describe with words, involves no poles, and pushing the uphill knee with the downhill hand at the end of the turn.

For angulation, which is also part of good skiing, but slightly different from separation, as I can have one without the other and vice versa, I like outrigger pole drills, which have to be done carefully as they can create a horrible stance for some skiers. USSA drill here is a link to USSA where kid and adult are seen doing the drill.

Both PSIA and USSA have drills for each major aspect of skiing that can be very useful.

Best of luck.
Thanks for all the info! I'll have to see if I can get my sister to video me one of these days. With pivot slips, I do an ok job of staying within the corridor but still could definitely use some more practice as I am definitely not always on a particular line.

The vision aspect sounds really useful and will definitely work on that as well! I do have a bad habit esp in steep/large bumps to focus on what I'm actively doing and at times one turn ahead and have noticed when on lucky occasions I do manage to look ahead things come together much more smoothly. A lot of it is definitely a confidence issue and I am hopefull with more mileage the confidence will come.

In terms of feedback with short radius turns on groomers I honestly haven't received much feedback other than my upper/lower body separation is much better compared to larger radius turns.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Looking down the hill and essentially doing pivot slips down bumps are thankfully not mutually exclusive, and going slow slow slow is the key to mogul success.

Another time you can practice vision is woth every stop or hockey stop. Think about where you look. Engraining the eyes stay down the hill while skis go across the hill movement pattern every time you get a chance to.
 

kmb5662

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
At Taos, what we are learning in advanced Ski Weeks is that the pole touch/plant is key in bumps and steeps. Where the tip of the pole is "looking" can help keep the loss of upper/lower body separation from happening.

Last year a tip I and my ski buddy got from our Ski Week instructor was to think about where the shoulders are facing, not just the hands. It's in my notes I'm reviewing while I'm doing a second Private Ski Week with the same instructor. Not forcing where the shoulder(s) are facing, but just being aware of shoulders as a starting point. Like everything else, there is a good side and a bad side. The difference in my shoulders is very noticeable. Even though after a few years of deliberate work, there is essentially no difference between my left and right turns as far as what's going on for my lower body.
I've recently had feedback that I pole plant too far forward and my right handed plants lag a bit from my left but at the time I didn't really make the connection of it so much with my seperation issues for whatever reason. More stuff to work on! :smile:
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I've recently had feedback that I pole plant too far forward and my right handed plants lag a bit from my left but at the time I didn't really make the connection of it so much with my seperation issues for whatever reason. More stuff to work on! :smile:
Gee that sounds like what I was doing a while back. I would sometimes run into my own pole with my own ski. When I started taking lessons fairly regularly, there were a lot more fundaments I had to work on first before I started hearing about pole usage. :smile:

When learning to do bumps "the Taos way" there is a lot of time spent on how to deal with poles in terms of speed, where to plant, etc. My Ski Week group has been doing assorted drills on groomers that help with using poles in bumps. But it takes a while to ingrain new habits. The three of us who were together with the same instructor a year ago did the same drills. However, they make much more sense this year. While it helps to understand why the drills are important, getting new habits ingrained requires plenty of practice on blue bumps before it happens correctly most of the time correctly on steeper bump runs.
 

kmb5662

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Gee that sounds like what I was doing a while back. I would sometimes run into my own pole with my own ski. When I started taking lessons fairly regularly, there were a lot more fundaments I had to work on first before I started hearing about pole usage. :smile:

When learning to do bumps "the Taos way" there is a lot of time spent on how to deal with poles in terms of speed, where to plant, etc. My Ski Week group has been doing assorted drills on groomers that help with using poles in bumps. But it takes a while to ingrain new habits. The three of us who were together with the same instructor a year ago did the same drills. However, they make much more sense this year. While it helps to understand why the drills are important, getting new habits ingrained requires plenty of practice on blue bumps before it happens correctly most of the time correctly on steeper bump runs.
Yep, definitely takes time to build that muscle memory/habits.... as much I want everything to click instantly lol (don't we all?). I've noticed the more advanced I've become the slower the progress is, which of course is natural and expected but can be a little frustrating at times, but I overall enjoy the challenges and the mental reward of when you finally do start getting things right is always worth the hard work and patience. :smile:
 

Scribble

Angel Diva
An instructor gave a tip that has been very helpful for me. I forget what the drill was called, but you reach your hands to touch your downhill knee. I'm definitely better at it in one direction than the other and will continue practicing! The cool thing about it is its also a way to stack yourself for a tight emergency turn or quick stop.
 

Nedgirl

Certified Ski Diva
With GS turns, you really need to angulate your legs and get the C Shape with the upper body stacked over your hips. Something that can be helpful is doing an oustide pole drag to get that upper body curled or stacked over. You want to angulate with the legs, not incline with the whole body. Inclining is what makes the turn fall apart. Also a wider stance with GS turns works better, if this is not natural to you, it can feel like you are riding a horse.
 

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