Question: Is this what is feels like when skis are "over tuned?"

[mustski]

As far as I know, I've never had a bad tune... so I'm not sure if that is the case or if I just suck. Here's what happened:

Took my Auras out for the first time since having them tuned and new bindings mounted. I had a mild base grind, edges, waxed, and demo Squires removed and Atomic FFG's installed.

Conditions: mostly man made, multi day freeze, 2 inches fresh, windblown, dust on ice, mixed conditions of 2-3"of soft on hard pack with patches of ice.

It was cold, with 25 mph winds and gusts up to 40 mph. The top of the run was totally blown out, it was snowing and blowing and foggy so visibility was terrible and required responsive skiing. As I was entering the run along a very slightly graded slope, I hit a patch of ice as I made a slight right turn and my right ski went crazy squirrelly. My tip and tail was wiggling side to side and I had a hard time coming to a stop. It felt similar to when my boots packed out and my heel was moving around in the boot. I quickly revevaluated and my foot was firmly seated in the boot. I took it slow and really felt like I was having to work that ski. On a "semi" steep part of the run, I hung a left turn to change my line to a more protected side of the run. Again, I hit a big patch of ice. The left ski (uphill) was fine, the downhill ski went wildly squirrelly. I tried to get it more up on edge and it literally jumped up and down off the surface of the snow. This was not a chatter. It was bucking me. I fell because I could not control the ski.

I then skied a different run that was not icy and had no problems with the ski. I was afraid to gain much speed so it is hard to tell what was going on. For various reasons (including that I was sick as a dog and skiing in a blizzard!) we left after a couple of more runs. I skied down the same "squirrelly" run as at the beginning of the day and same deal on the ice. Now I know that the Auras are not an ideal tool for ice, but I've skied them over patches of ice before and never experience this. I wish I had thought to switch my skis to the other foot and see what happened. I will do that next Saturday to see.

My question: since they skied fine in softer snow and were only squirrelly on ice, does this eliminate a tuning problem? In other words, did I just suck at responsive, blind skiing?

 

[contesstant]

So sorry, mustski! It is so frustrating having a bummer day. I know for a fact you don't suck! I'd point to either of those two as being the issue. (Possibly different binding angle.) I remember when I got my previous "new" boots and was still skiing on my K2's. The angle of the boots really messed me up! I kept having that same sensation of the skis "bucking" me on steeper, more sheered-off stuff. Got on the Black Pearls and no more issues!

I'd certainly be more suspicious of a tune issue, but it's worth exploring all ideas. I'm always paranoid when I get my edges done. I really want to learn to do it myself. Are you able to take them back where you got them tuned to ask if they changed the edges, or didn't detune the tips and tails?

 

[mustski]

I am going to try them on opposite feet next weekend and play around a bit to see. I was too freaked out yesterday to go full out when I got on the soft run. I still wonder if it was my "poor responsive skiing" in bad visibility. I am not a good braille skiier.

 

[pinto]

Sounds like it could be base high ...

 

[Jilly]

That or tuned tip to tail. No detune at the tip and tail that you might be used to.

 

[mustski]

I will take a straight edge and check the base with a flashlight next week. @Jilly is there anyway to check if the tip/tail have been detuned or not?

 

[Jilly]

The tip and tail will be the same as the rest of the edge. If they used an automated machine this could happen. I like to detune mine, some don't. It takes the sharpness and to me the "hooky" out of the ski. Some don't like that, they want sharp all the way. It's what ever you're used to.

Take your fingernail flat to the point of the edge. If you can "peel off" minute amounts they're sharp. (Spell check does not want to put an "e" on the end of sharpe. I spell Canuck!)

 

[mustski]

I have always had my skis tuned to factory settings since that is what I am used to. @Jilly ... thanks. It gives me something else to look at next weekend. The left ski felt fine. I am partly hoping that the skis are fine, and that I just sucked, and partly hoping that I can blame the equipment for my epic fail.

 

[Serafina]

As far as I know, I've never had a bad tune... so I'm not sure if that is the case or if I just suck. Here's what happened:

Took my Auras out for the first time since having them tuned and new bindings mounted. I had a mild base grind, edges, waxed, and demo Squires removed and Atomic FFG's installed.

Conditions: mostly man made, multi day freeze, 2 inches fresh, windblown, dust on ice, mixed conditions of 2-3"of soft on hard pack with patches of ice.

It was cold, with 25 mph winds and gusts up to 40 mph. The top of the run was totally blown out, it was snowing and blowing and foggy so visibility was terrible and required responsive skiing. As I was entering the run along a very slightly graded slope, I hit a patch of ice as I made a slight right turn and my right ski went crazy squirrelly. My tip and tail was wiggling side to side and I had a hard time coming to a stop. It felt similar to when my boots packed out and my heel was moving around in the boot. I quickly revevaluated and my foot was firmly seated in the boot. I took it slow and really felt like I was having to work that ski. On a "semi" steep part of the run, I hung a left turn to change my line to a more protected side of the run. Again, I hit a big patch of ice. The left ski (uphill) was fine, the downhill ski went wildly squirrelly. I tried to get it more up on edge and it literally jumped up and down off the surface of the snow. This was not a chatter. It was bucking me. I fell because I could not control the ski.

I then skied a different run that was not icy and had no problems with the ski. I was afraid to gain much speed so it is hard to tell what was going on. For various reasons (including that I was sick as a dog and skiing in a blizzard!) we left after a couple of more runs. I skied down the same "squirrelly" run as at the beginning of the day and same deal on the ice. Now I know that the Auras are not an ideal tool for ice, but I've skied them over patches of ice before and never experience this. I wish I had thought to switch my skis to the other foot and see what happened. I will do that next Saturday to see.

My question: since they skied fine in softer snow and were only squirrelly on ice, does this eliminate a tuning problem? In other words, did I just suck at responsive, blind skiing?

Two questions I have are about your technique and about that ice. 1) Everyone knows the Auras aren't the right ski for that stuff, but you ride down on the ski you brought to the top. If I were riding that ski on ice, I'd be doing a ton of smeared turns because that's a more effective approach, in my experience, for riding a ski like that on a surface like the horrible one you're describing. But it sounds to me like you were trying to get it up on edge and carve on that stuff. Is that the same way you were riding the Auras on ice before? Or were you used to do more smeary turns with them in that condition? I'm not trying to be insulting or anything with this question - I know that I ski one way on my Volkl front-side skis, and a very different way on my Rossi S3s, and that sometimes, my wiring gets a little crossed and I try to ski or smear turns on the Volkls, and/or carve with the S3s. The Volkls will smear turns, and the S3s will carve, but that's mainly if the conditions are forgiving, which they weren't, not at all, given what you described.

2) about that ice. Was is hardpack? Because if your skis were squirreling on hardpack, to me that would be one thing, maybe an issue with the ski. Or was it more like boilerplate? Because I would be surprised if a pair of Auras didn't get a little squirrely on boilerplate...especially if the boilerplate has been chewed up recently by the groomers. I had to deal with that yesterday - spots of loose snow, patches of ice, and plenty of ice that had been chewed up solidly, and my skis, which have a really solid tune and were made for skiing hard snow, were very difficult to control under those conditions.

Also, I've never tried the Auras, but the Volkls I have kind of resent being skied slowly and cautiously. If I want them to perform badly under even the best of circumstances, all I have to do is to get tentative with them, which I would definitely be doing if the visibility was really low, the wind was high, the surface was in lousy shape, and I wasn't feeling well.

Just some thoughts about alternative explanations other than the tune...

 

[mustski]

@Serafina ... No offense taken. I've been asking myself the same questions. It wasn't boilerplate. The ice was smooth and in patches. It's nothing that I haven't taken the Auras across before. I wasn't trying to get up on edge (carve). I was trying to stop the downhill ski from squirreling side to side (tip and tail) and when I put pressure on the camber in the center, it literally jumped off the surface repeatedly. It was nothing I have ever experienced before. I actually find that I can ski the Auras fast or slow depending on my mood. They are a very versatile ski. I wonder if the lack of visibility affected my brains ability to anticipate what I needed to do in such shifting conditions. Once I got on hard pack (no ice) I had no issues. That said, I was definitely tentative of any sort of speed after that "bucking" experience. I did not want to encounter that at speed.

 

[Serafina]

"mixed conditions of 2-3"of soft on hard pack with patches of ice"...gross. I totally had the same conditions, and a similarly unpleasant experience with my gear, but I didn't have visibility problems, and what I concluded was that skiing in these two completely different conditions, where I was getting both conditions so close together that they were showing up sometimes during a single turn required some kind of lightning-fast reflexes that I haven't had since the age of 15. I'd start a turn on one surface (pick one: ice, or some heap of soft manmade sitting on ice), and have to finish the turn on the other. I was in the enviable position of being able to see what I was skiing on, and I was still having major problems with doing transitions every 15 seconds between the two. I wasn't bouncing on my skis, but I was definitely having some issues keeping the tips and tails lined up and where they needed to be, and more swively action than I wanted underfoot.

 

[badger]

I'm thinking what Pinto said...base high. A few years back I had the exact same experience. Skis were new however, so should have been ok. They weren't. I ended up going down the mountain on a ski patrol sled because of the bad fall that came about due to high edges. My skis were totally uncontrollable. Thought it was just me being a lousy skier---and maybe I was that too---but I realized there was more to my squirelly skiing than me. I no longer trust new skis unless they have been inspected when the bindings are mounted.

 

[mustski]

@badger Yeah. This is my 3rd season on the Auras and it was just weird. I was sick and not at my best ... but, this type of skiing would have to rate as my worst ever since my first season.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Sounds like it could be base high ...

+1.

 

[Jilly]

Did you get a straight edge on them yet?

 

[altagirl]

I'd also guess base high or something way off with the tuning. (I like my skis a little detuned as well, and you can do that yourself if you need to - just taking a file and filing away the edge towards the tips and tails - though I'd just do a little at a time to figure out where you like it.) But one of the things that I do if I'm feeling like one ski is way off is swap them to the other foot. Kind of as a sanity check - do I still feel problems with the same ski regardless of what foot it's on? If I still have a problem with the same leg, then it's probably the leg/my form. If it transfers with the ski to the other leg, then it's the ski... if it goes away completely, maybe there was something up with the bindings (snow/ice in there or something that was causing it to feel crazy).

Oh - and I'd also take them off and look at the bases too. This wasn't your issue, but I've had/seen core shots big enough that they drag in the snow and feel all crazy. Hahah, and years ago I had some rock skis that had so many core shots along the edges that I finally ripped out a big section of edge and was dragging it in the snow behind me. Nothing you'd miss there when you took your skis off in this situation, but crazy things happen and it's worth taking a ski off to look and make sure there's nothing obvious that's the problem. I know I'm usually tempted to blame myself before blaming my gear, but sometimes it really IS the gear causing a bad day!

 

[volklgirl]

But one of the things that I do if I'm feeling like one ski is way off is swap them to the other foot. Kind of as a sanity check - do I still feel problems with the same ski regardless of what foot it's on? If I still have a problem with the same leg, then it's probably the leg/my form. If it transfers with the ski to the other leg, then it's the ski... if it goes away completely, maybe there was something up with the bindings (snow/ice in there or something that was causing it to feel crazy).

Yup, I do this too. Here's another vote for a base-high ski or a really wicked burr on the edge.

One other thing we had happen that made a ski seriously wonky was the center bar on the brake broke so 1/2 the brake was dragging in the snow. That caused some serious weirdness and it took me skiing behind the ski's owner to see what was happening. Sheesh.

Oh, and I don't detune AT ALL. I like having every bit of edge I paid for in icy or dicy conditions.

 

[Serafina]

Hahah, and years ago I had some rock skis that had so many core shots along the edges that I finally ripped out a big section of edge and was dragging it in the snow behind me.

 

[mustski]

Did you get a straight edge on them yet?

Not yet. I left them at the cabin so Saturday will be the day when I try everything you ladies suggested. First up is the straight edge and the flashlight, if that shows no results, I try the finger nail along the tip edge and tail edge, then I ski them again (bringing my other skis as well) and switch them feet to see if my right leg has just suddenly become seriously disabled! I hope not!

I will definitely report back even if it is ... ahem ... driver disability.

 

[mustski]

Yup, I do this too. Here's another vote for a base-high ski or a really wicked burr on the edge.

One other thing we had happen that made a ski seriously wonky was the center bar on the brake broke so 1/2 the brake was dragging in the snow. That caused some serious weirdness and it took me skiing behind the ski's owner to see what was happening. Sheesh.

Oh, and I don't detune AT ALL. I like having every bit of edge I paid for in icy or dicy conditions.

I did eyeball the bases and edges and they looked fine to the naked eye. Quick question: what is the normal factory tune on a Volkl - is that a detuned edge and tip? I always ask for a factory tune because that is what I'm used to. My maintenance skills stop at waxing and a quick run down with a gummi.