In defense of snowboarders

[MaineSkiLady]

I begin this thread rather hesitantly, almost sheepishly. Mainly because there is an extremely competent snowboarder in my family. I am reading that many if not most of you have had some bad encounters and experiences. (Are there no diva riders among us?)

I urge you to not judge all the books by their covers. Please. It really does look different "from the inside out." One season I had the unique opportunity of spending lots of time with age 19-22+- male snowboarders - somewhat by default. My son was doing some serious slopestyle training that season, learning the anatomy of various spins and jumps in the terrain park. I did a lot of jump spotting, took a lot of still photos and videos, for him and several others.

For the first time, I was able to see some of their viewpoints - I saw some of the carelessness exhibited by others in the terrain park(s) with regard to jump safety and the whole "respect gets respect" code. I saw just how long and hard they worked, hour after hour, day after day, to get one move executed. It was exhausting just to watch. I sometimes would give them the "X" crossed poles BAIL OUT signal, when someone would carelessly wander into the jump landing. And never ONCE did ANY of them hesitate to brake it out and stop before the launch, sometimes resulting in painful falls - by THEM, as the careless person at the jump landing skied or rode away. It happened at least once a day.

Okay, the pants are stupid. It's a "costume." I don't get it, either, but they never got the tight pants, and I HAVE seen some seams rip apart mid-air. (They also wear colorful skivvies!) When they were around me, their language was clean(er). (And my son's had better be.) They talk about angles of launch, table lengths and run-outs of landings in degrees and feet like engineers.

They really aren't all inconsiderate boors. My son has a long list of credentials to his name, all of which I'm proud, most of which are not skiing-snowboarding related. And yes, he can also ski, having done so for his first 10+ years on snow. He worked long and hard to become the type of rider that he is. He's taught hundreds (....sorry... ). The PSIA/AASI trainer who prepped him for his Level 2 exam one winter is a county sheriff. Not exactly punk material!

In this constant little war we have going between skiers and riders, I had the chance to watch from the other side - and I saw them treated unfairly from time to time. And as a most-definitely middle-aged skier-garbed and equipped mom, I defended them when it was necessary.

I really wanted to learn, so I could ride with my son, even if I never got any good. By that point in my life, the learning curve was just too painful. He good-naturedly gave me 2 hour-long privates and later admitted that I was one of the worst students he ever had!! I went back to 2-planks with a newfounded respect for the intracacies that I see some of the freestyle riders pulling off. I know a backside from a frontside, a 540 from a 720, so when he calls and says he did a corked backside 720 truckdriver, I'm a proud mom.

They aren't all jerks...

 

[Kiragirl]

I agree that they are not all jerks, but it sounds like your son and his friends are the type that actually work at it, try to be athletes and perfect their command of the sport. good for them! it's too bad the other kids who are not serious are giving them a bad name. Like in any sport, some people think they're cool when they haven't a clue.

 

[Kiragirl]

and, on a good note, I was sitting on the chair yesterday with 2 teenage boys who were boarding. They were nice kids, said they're not that good that's why they were practicing. I had noticed earlier on that trail, and said to them, hey there are some girls boarders out here who are pretty good, go check them out! they're reaction was great, like, yeah, those girls are good...no ego-ism, just trying to get better and appreciating others who were also.

 

[IttyBittyBetty]

I know

I used to be a snow boarder. I boarded for 7 or 8 years and I must say it's LOADs of fun. I was on the receiving end of a lot of anti-snow boarder hostility. With my helmet and goggles on, I think skiers thought I was a 12 year old kid! I agree that there are many considerate snow boarders. There are also lots of inconsiderate skiers. It sounds like your son is a really good kid, but young boys (teens) can be careless idiots. That's why they are the number one group for auto accidents.

My biggest complaint about snow boarding is that snow boarders have a significant blind spot. The blind spot makes snow boarding not as safe as skiing. Granted, there is a certain element of risk to any snow sport, so the higher risk from snow boarders is relative. As a former boarder, I know where the blind spot is and when I see a snow boarder I try to stay out of that zone. If snow boarders maintain awareness of their blind spot and if skiers and other snow boarders keep it in mind, there will be fewer accidents. When I boarded I also appreciated it when someone announced that they were coming past me on my heel edge, say on a catwalk. That's why it irks me to see snow boarders playing their iPod really loud!!! Those guys need to be able to hear!

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Anyone who takes bonafide snowboard lessons is taught the blind spot rule. It's like when you are changing lanes in your car - the mirror is NOT enough, you have to do that over-the-shoulder glance to be 100% sure. My son was an instructor for years (definitely is not a teenager), and the heel-side glance is widely taught. Whether it gets implemented after the lesson is another story, but it IS taught.

 

[Kimmyt]

I'm getting married to a snowboarder. I'm not a hater.

I do agree with someone who said on epic once, that its not snowboarders or skiiers in general who are ignorant, its just that there are individuals in both sports that are ignorant, and they happen to be on a board or skis at the time. It has nothing to do with what is on their feet, it's just that they're idiots.

 

[tradygirl]

Ya know, I've come to the conclusion that's it not the attitudes or the lack of ettiquette, etc. I have a handful of boarder friends that are extremely competent and great to ride with. I'm sure that a good portion of them have decent ethics and pay attention to what's going on around them. I run into extremely rude and dangerous skiers all the time.

The problem that I have with snowboarders is that they don't take the limitations of their gear seriously. A snowboard is not as mobile as a pair of skis - period. I've decided that NOTHING drives me more crazy than a boarder stopping, sitting down, etc on a traverse or postholing a traverse/skintrack. There's just some places that they shouldn't be at certain times. One of them stopped on a very narrow part of a busy traverse yesterday, accomplishing several incredibly annoying things. First, he completely killed all momentum that anyone had behind him. Second, he completely blocked the traverse for a good amount of time while he took off his board. Third, he post-holed the traverse so it was a PITA for everyone else behind him. Some skiers did a helluva lot of work putting in the traverse that morning (breaking trail in deep powder), and I believe 100% that the snowboarders should have to put in the same amount of work to put in their own boot pack trail for their own benefit, NOT just busting up the ski track by tromping all over it. It drives me NUTS in the backcountry when I see boot packers postholing right up a skin track (especially if it's one that my party put in ). They not only totally screw up the track for any skiers behind them, but it just smacks of self-entitlement.

*Big breath*

OK, sorry about the rant. It just got me thinking and stewing.....

 

[Gloria]

There is nothing wrong with snowboarding

I personally get kind of tired of reading all the crap about snowboarders. I spent a good 10 years at least snowboarding and had skiis not gotten wider and given me the opportunity to nail some of the same lines with equal floatation, I'd probably still be on one. I still miss the feeling of just floating suspended just a few inches above the snow while laying a huge fast carve in the powder, you just can't get there on skis, or at least I haven't found a way yet.

I read alot of garbage about snowboarders doing this or that or alot of other somethings. Sometimes yeah they are dumb but so could be said about alot of skiers that just haven't logged in enough mountain time to understand completely what is going on around them. A couple things to keep in mind before criticising them is that snowboards have increased difficulty on traverses etc for one. Without the assistance of poles yes sometimes you get stuck in the middle of a traveserse when you lose speed, after time you learn to stay to the side, but not everyone knows this at first. Second they are way more edgy than skis and falling on a traverse is much more likely than on skis. Snowboards have huge surface areas that catch and even when trying to stay to the side on a traverse sometimes if you catch an edge or have to much surface contact with the snow you can easily get tossed into the mainstream and cut someone off unintentionally. Unfortunately without that extra leg and extra edges if you do catch an edge and you try to get onto your opposing edge you almost always end up on the ground. It takes a while to gain the confidence to stay on that edge and ride out a caught edge. We don't have alot of traverses but when I am approaching a traverse and I see snowboarders, I let them go ahead of me and give them room. For two reasons, one they need twice the speed I do so I don't want to choke the trail up for them so they can't make it or they catch an edge trying to avoid me and cut someone else off. I also hang back long enough and if they don't make a traverse I will pass them my poles as I go by so they can push themselves up over a hump or across a flat spot without "being in the way" I guess it's easier to be kind if you have been in their shoes, but it's always nice to consider how you can be courteous as a skier as well.

 

[Gloria]

FWIW Tradygirls post was not up yet when I was posting mine, my points not to be confused or in opposition to hers, as I can see this being mistaken. And aggh the skintrack debate....We don't have the opportunity to punch in alot of different access routes where we are. We are limited both by terrain and the forest service gets PO'd and wants to call the whole thing off if put in more than one trail leading off area anywhere. So we have been forced to share. So as a snowboarder, sometimes we were the first to break ground and sometimes we weren't. If not we tried to stay as far to the right side of the track as we could and stay buckled in for as long as we could and even packed telescoping poles to stay buckled in. That being said, we certainly don't have the traffic you have where you are and a much smaller tighter community, so if you did get slowed up, you actually knew who was coming up behind you. Which to see another group is pretty rare in and of itself. But as snowboarders we always took the time to repay the favor of letting us boot a little by packing out steps in our much more capable footwear up the side of the cliffbands where even skiers have to hike a little. It all worked out and we never had the snowboarder vs. skier battles you see at so many other areas. As a skier I haven't necessarily minded skiing over snowboarders postholes, but then again we have so many less people that we don't have to go very far out to get the goods, so I may feel differently if I had pursue it for quite aways. Plus I am always pshyched to have the stairs puched in for me when sporting the hardshells, so nice and easy.

 

[Kiragirl]

I (and most people) am courteous as a skiier. The thing that gets me about boarders is that they KNOW how people feel about them getting in the way, parking their butts in the middle of a trail, sometimes creating difficultly on the lifts. I think some take an egoistically pride in being obnoxious. I guess for those it's immaturity. I've never seen a skier sit in the middle of a narrow trail intentionally.

 

[Gloria]

I (and most people) am courteous as a skiier. The thing that gets me about boarders is that they KNOW how people feel about them getting in the way, parking their butts in the middle of a trail, sometimes creating difficultly on the lifts. I think some take an egoistically pride in being obnoxious. I guess for those it's immaturity. I've never seen a skier sit in the middle of a narrow trail intentionally.

To be honest with you as a boarder I noticed more rude skiers than I do snowboarders as a skier. As a snowboarder you have to deal with being cutoff, pushed down, or even having a skier ski over your board on a traverse while you are moving, because they know full and well that if you fall or lose your speed, it is incredibly difficult to get up or you'll have to stop and unbuckle and walk. People will both intentionally and obliviously stick their skis out far enough in the maze to make it difficult to get by them or through the line with any degree of speed or finesse, they intentionally step on your board when you get off the lift because they think its funny for you to fall. Although skiers may not stop and sit down on narrow trails, they do things like fix their gloves, goggles etc or just plain lollygag along and choke the trail up so you have to slow down. Often times you will stop and wait a minute, not to intentionally block traffic, but because everytime you have to slow down for that person, it takes a heck of alot of energy to get yourself going again and why do it 10 times instead of giving them space and then going when it's a straight shot. I hate to say but I think the road goes both ways and for every annoying thing a snowboarder may do, there is a skier that is doing something as equally annoying making that snowboarders life just as miserable. It's a matter of perspective really.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Thanks for all the input, Gloria. You have definitely "walked" in both sets of boots - which I think would be valuable for many. I know how terrifying it was as a long-time skier, to suddenly be on a very strange piece of equipment, strange hip attitude required to get to lift - and then there was the OFF RAMP. Talk about scary (and when was the last time I was scared at an off-ramp????). Learned how to fall down and knee hop out of the way. Felt like a 5-year old looking up at everyone while there I was on the snow strapping in.

And then I had to stand up....
Toe side turn. Fall. Get up.
Heel side turn. Fall. Get up.
Hard to say which direction hurts more. Wrists or tail bone?

I got "the look" from the skiers (a beginner run, no less) for being "down." I never forgot it.

Eventually, I went to a mini-beginner area and hiked for turns. I never could put more than 3 or 4 together. I spent a lot of time bodily on the snow, very wet and cold butt. Sore wrists.

So sometimes when I see an obviously novice rider struggling with a traverse, especially a younger kid, I offer a pole and skate him/her along. Intermediate lessons teach riders how to "pump" traverses to maintain speed.

Conversely, my son taught at one ski/ride school that had all snowboard instructors get on ski gear for a couple of hours (and RENTAL gear, no less ). Of course, my son had 10 years of skiing under his belt and wasn't too fazed, but there was a lot of ski tip crossing and boot pain that day, I'm told.

We need to be more aware of the alternate realities on snow.

 

[Gloria]

Thanks for all the input, Gloria. You have definitely "walked" in both sets of boots - which I think would be valuable for many. I know how terrifying it was as a long-time skier, to suddenly be on a very strange piece of equipment, strange hip attitude required to get to lift - and then there was the OFF RAMP. Talk about scary (and when was the last time I was scared at an off-ramp????). Learned how to fall down and knee hop out of the way. Felt like a 5-year old looking up at everyone while there I was on the snow strapping in.

And then I had to stand up....
Toe side turn. Fall. Get up.
Heel side turn. Fall. Get up.
Hard to say which direction hurts more. Wrists or tail bone?

I got "the look" from the skiers (a beginner run, no less) for being "down." I never forgot it.

Eventually, I went to a mini-beginner area and hiked for turns. I never could put more than 3 or 4 together. I spent a lot of time bodily on the snow, very wet and cold butt. Sore wrists.

So sometimes when I see an obviously novice rider struggling with a traverse, especially a younger kid, I offer a pole and skate him/her along. Intermediate lessons teach riders how to "pump" traverses to maintain speed.

Conversely, my son taught at one ski/ride school that had all snowboard instructors get on ski gear for a couple of hours (and RENTAL gear, no less ). Of course, my son had 10 years of skiing under his belt and wasn't too fazed, but there was a lot of ski tip crossing and boot pain that day, I'm told.

We need to be more aware of the alternate realities on snow.

The funny thing both about your lift comments and the fact that I did spend so much time on a board. Is that my husband still boards quite often and even with the "experience" I still do oblivious things as a skier both boarding and unloading the lift that make his life difficult. He will only ride with me on the left side now (our far side ), because when I am on the left, I don't pay enough attention to my skis and make it difficult for him to get up to and load, and then if I don't innadvertantly step on his board getting, I seem to forget he is on one foot and cut across too soon after the ramp and cut him off. I guess even I sometimes forget what I used to have to put up with.

 

[smpayne]

I remember YEARS AGO my dad talking about the "PUNK" skiiers that would just *#$%$ him off. I think the truth is that there has always been and always will be those that are just flat rude and plain stupid, wheather they are on boards or skis. Most of the rudeness that I have noticed is from teenage boys with an attitude. Since snowboarding is the "cool" thing to do, most of the idiots gravitate that direction.

I do find it frustrating skiing on a hill that is 90% geared toward boarders, complete with terrain features that are impossible to avoid. I have made a point of mentioning to the management how unsafe some of thier terrain features are spaced. Someone is bound to get hurt, either by being in the way or hitting someone that is in the way. I won't even mention the problems seeing some of the jumps on flat light days.

If the resort management would do more to enforce/inform everyone of proper etiquite things might improve.

My pet peave is the resort not enforcing the leash issue. I have seen too many boarders decide to take thier board completely off, only to have it go sliding down the hill completely out of control at dangerous speeds.

 

[MaineSkiLady]

The overwhelming majority of terrain parks are roped off with entrances, although most are NOT restricted. The park rules are usually posted on a BIG sign in orange and black at the park entrance. Jump lips and rail starts are supposed to be either painted or flagged -both is better. If the resort you speak of is not doing any of this, they are in the minority. Most resorts have a park planner and a whole staff of "rangers" who maintain it and enforce rules. The rules are simple: don't cold jump anything.

Your ski area should be doing something to alert all that special terrain is ahead with signs at the very least, ropes and gates better yet.

There is an entirely new contingent now with freestylers on twin tips, which has actually overtaken snowboarding in growth. If you think snowboarders are a problem with their blind heel-side turns, try encountering a freestyle skier riding "switch" (BACKWARDS) - it has been banned in all slow skiing areas where I ski.

 

[smpayne]

The overwhelming majority of terrain parks are roped off with entrances, although most are NOT restricted. The park rules are usually posted on a BIG sign in orange and black at the park entrance. Jump lips and rail starts are supposed to be either painted or flagged -both is better. If the resort you speak of is not doing any of this, they are in the minority. Most resorts have a park planner and a whole staff of "rangers" who maintain it and enforce rules. The rules are simple: don't cold jump anything.

Your ski area should be doing something to alert all that special terrain is ahead with signs at the very least, ropes and gates better yet.

There is an entirely new contingent now with freestylers on twin tips, which has actually overtaken snowboarding in growth. If you think snowboarders are a problem with their blind heel-side turns, try encountering a freestyle skier riding "switch" (BACKWARDS) - it has been banned in all slow skiing areas where I ski.

There are 3 beginner runs with no terrain features and a few black diamonds. There is only 1 intermediate run that can be accessed without finding any terrain features. There is a section (accesed by shuttle or a seperate parking lot) that has absolutely no terrain features, but it is upper intermediate and black diamonds only. It is the last section to open and the first to close and snowmaking is determined at the whim of the management. We call it the skiier side.

Our mountain hosts many USASA events and absolutely no USSA events, even NASTAR races have been banned . To say that we are 90% boarders is not an exageration.

It is not uncommon to have 20+ hard features (rails, boxes, slides, etc.) and about the same amount of snow made stuff (including 3 20ft mounds of snow for jumps).

 

[abc]

I don't think skier hate boarders per se. But let's face it, a lot of boarders are teenagers, and they behave that way. So that's the image they create. And they wonder why they're not liked?

Actually, the teenagers don't care if they're liked or not. But it's the grown up boarders who can't stand the negative image of boarders. I hate to say that. Until the boarding population grows up and sheds its teenage image, the negative attitude from skier will continue.

Another reason that's even harder to overcome is, skiing come first to the scence. So to skiers, the "difficulty" with boarding, are "so what?". You can't traverse? Shrug. You can't see out your back? Try skiing. You can't stand on your edge all day? Well, you can sit down but I'm going to poke fun of you!

Now, you side slip all the way down the trail scraping all the snow away? I HATE you for that!

 

[MaineSkiLady]

There are 3 beginner runs with no terrain features and a few black diamonds. There is only 1 intermediate run that can be accessed without finding any terrain features. There is a section (accesed by shuttle or a seperate parking lot) that has absolutely no terrain features, but it is upper intermediate and black diamonds only. It is the last section to open and the first to close and snowmaking is determined at the whim of the management. We call it the skiier side.

Our mountain hosts many USASA events and absolutely no USSA events, even NASTAR races have been banned . To say that we are 90% boarders is not an exageration.

It is not uncommon to have 20+ hard features (rails, boxes, slides, etc.) and about the same amount of snow made stuff (including 3 20ft mounds of snow for jumps).

Might I ask where this resort is? By the way, USSA hosts the Grand Prix, which is a series of 3 snowboard competitions, every year. USASA is not the only organization that promotes snowboarding.

 

[abc]

BTW, I've taken a few boaring lesson and can nicely carve down a green (and side-slip down a blue if I want to). I found the "difficulty" isn't exactly that hard to overcome.

But perhaps that's because I'm a cyclist who try to share the road with cars. I try to fit in, instead of defining my own rule and then complaining about the discourteous drivers who violate MY rules. So, as a boarder/learner, I try to "plan" my run so I don't get stuck in a traverse with no momentum (by that, I also take into accounts of beginer skiers stopping in the middle of the catwalk). And I try to get on the lift so I don't end up being squeezed by skiers, etc.

Granted, I had the advantage of checking out the terrain on skis before I attempt to board it.

 

[smpayne]

Might I ask where this resort is? By the way, USSA hosts the Grand Prix, which is a series of 3 snowboard competitions, every year. USASA is not the only organization that promotes snowboarding.

Resort: Mountain High in Wrightwood, CA

I may have initials mixed up, but there are many BIG name snowboard events.