Ikon 2020-21, Alterra vs Partners when it comes to lift access reservations

[Christy]

Read thru some of the comments on the Crystal FB page. Seems pretty clear that Crystal underestimated the number of people interested in skiing the Wed before Thanksgiving. Saw a comment about the fact that Stevens Pass is not open yet as another factor. At least for those people who don't buy a season pass to ski Crystal, but have Epic for Stevens.

During 2020-21, past attendance records for early season and midweek days may not be as useful for making an educated guess about demand for a given day. Especially before 100% of the lifts and most of the terrain is open for a location with thousands of skiable acres. What works in terms of keeping the number of people showing up to a manageable number for some ski areas may well not be as effective for others.

What will be the same is that after powder storms there will be more demand from locals doing day trips. I would guess that's when some people will complain about having to make any sort of reservation, whether for parking or lift access. It remains to be seen if Alterra resorts and any Ikon Partners with no reservation system in place can stick to that approach.

I don't want to harsh on them, since this is new. But. The comments about Stevens not being open, conditions being stellar, etc, aren't relevant. They have a reservation system. Either they allowed too many reservations, or too many people came without them and weren't stopped. So they had an apology, but also said, we've never had such a busy early season day, this was unexpected, etc, which doesn't inspire confidence in their ability to foresee issues and plan for them.

 

[marzNC]

Took a look at a few Ikon Partners to see what days are already booked for Ikon reservations as of Nov. 26. The last day to buy Ikon is Dec. 10.

For Snowbird, the parking reservations are currently full for all weekends thru January. Most likely more spots will open up later on as more terrain becomes available.

Copper in CO doesn't have parking reservations left for weekends in early Dec. But does have spots Dec. 21 thru Jan. 2. Perhaps those dates were only opened up recently? Two Saturdays in Jan are gone, Jan. 9 and 18. Copper opens on Nov. 30.

Mt. Bachelor parking is gone from Dec. 18 thru Jan. 2. Also booked up the weekend of Dec. 12-13. Also possible that only a limited number of spots were released initially. Obviously better to add more spots later than to have too many people show up if can't get enough terrain open for whatever reason. Windholds and low visibility holds are common for the Summit lift, which is the primary access to the entire backside of the single huge volcanic mountain.

Jackson Hole is only booked up Dec. 28 thru Jan. 1. JH-only passholders do not need to make reservations.

Boyne Resorts has season passes for their resorts. They cut off sales earlier and are promising those folks that reservations won't be required this season. Ikon holders who need to make reservations for holiday periods or weekends needed to start early. Seems as if Boyne is prioritizing local passholders or people willing to pay for a day ticket over travelers with Ikon.

Big Sky has quite a few holiday period days unavailable for Ikon reservations already. Includes Dec. 20-24, Dec. 26-31, Jan. 1-2, Jan. 18 (MLK Day holiday Monday), Feb. 13-20 (U.S. Presidents Day holiday week). I know of people who renewed Ikon for 2020-21 who were thinking Big Sky would be a good place for a ski vacation that is typically consider less busy since it's not close to a major international airport such as SLC or Denver. Day tickets are only sold out for Dec. 28-31.

Brighton in SLC is also a Boyne location. It's mostly a ski area for locals and there are Brighton-only pass options. Ikon reservations are gone for Dec. 24-31, Jan. 1-2, Jan. 8-10, and Saturdays thru January. Day tickets are available for all of those dates. Day tickets have only been released thru Jan. 10. Brighton is having a sale this week on a 2-day Go Card, good for any 7-hour period (Brighton has night skiing). The deal is US$159 for any 2 days, no reservations required.

Boyne isn't requiring Ikon reservations for Sunday River and Sugarloaf in Maine at this point. All dates are available for Loon in NH. Boyne cut off sales of the New England pass very early. Also limited the sales of the Maine pass that was available for 2020-21.

 

[marzNC]

Crystal has day tickets available from December on. Weekends and holiday Mondays aren't available until late February. Most Friday prices are pretty high. Monday-Thursday are heavily discounted.

 

[Christy]

Crystal has day tickets available from December on. Weekends and holiday Mondays aren't available until late February. Most Friday prices are pretty high. Monday-Thursday are heavily discounted.

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It seems like a bad idea to start selling day tickets before operating smoothly and nailing down capacity numbers.

Why $59 one Friday and $147 for another?

Also--$147??? Wow. In terms of what anyone has ever paid to ski in WA, that is staggering. I suppose there are enough people that just moved here that might not think that is crazy, though. It was only a few years ago I thought the increase to $75 at the ticket window was a lot. And it's not like Ikon has made infrastructure investments. That's straight up gouging.

 

[marzNC]

Also--$147??? Wow. In terms of what anyone has ever paid to ski in WA, that is staggering. I suppose there are enough people that just moved here that might not think that is crazy, though. It was only a few years ago I thought the increase to $75 at the ticket window was a lot. And it's not like Ikon has made infrastructure investments. That's straight up gouging.

To play devil's advocate looking at it from the management standpoint, suppose the usual number of day tickets is 400 for a given day. If limited capacity is capped at 50%, only 200 can be offered. 400 x $75 = $30,000 while 200 x $147 = $29,400. Mostly likely this season there will be much less revenue from Food & Beverage. Season passholders are unlikely to spend any additional money when at the mountain, if they even go indoors at all. Presumably a ski resort is trying to at least bring in enough money to cover fixed costs.

I don't know what the capacity limit is for Crystal. The range is pretty big in general. I've seen 25%, 30%, 50%, and as much as 75%. The 75% was for a small independent ski area and is being calculated based on the two days last season that had the most show up.

It seems like a bad idea to start selling day tickets before operating smoothly and nailing down capacity numbers.

Agree that it's better to not release day tickets too far in advance. Have seen a few ski areas that are going out about 30 days, which seems like a good idea. At least need to get to the point where at least all the lifts are running, even if 100% of the terrain isn't open for one reason or another.

But impossible to know what the numbers are for any given day with dynamic pricing. Could be a small percentage of the anticipated final number. The idea is that prices could change at any time, just like airplane tickets. Could go up or could go down. Day tickets are generally non-refundable. Any money that a ski area can get in the bank sooner rather than later is helpful.

 

[marzNC]

Why $59 one Friday and $147 for another?

Here's my guess as a parent who used to take my kid and friends for holiday weekend ski trips. Given that Monday, Jan. 18, is MLK Day there are probably people who are unlikely to ski that Friday because they plan on skiing Sat, Sun, Mon, and perhaps Tue as well. My daughter's elementary school typically has a 4-day weekend for kids, with a Teacher Workday on the Tue. Families who buy day tickets probably only plan on skiing a few days this season.

In my home region, I know of many families who do an annual ski vacation over a long weekend. That's the only time they ski. They are the ones who were at the ticket windows buying ticket & rental packages for 1-2 days during the vacation.

Pricing is very much based on location. Just like real estate. A Saturday 8-hour ticket at Massanutten has been around $80 for a few years. That's for 1100 vertical, 70 acres, and 4 short fixed-grip lifts, 100% manmade snow.

 

[Christy]

Good points @marzNC.

I don't know what the capacity limit is for Crystal.

Either 30% or 35% of capacity, I forget which. Mandated by the state I believe. What I wonder if how they decide what "capacity" is. Maybe they need to have figured out a number for legal or insurance reasons already.

 

[Christy]

So here is how Crystal is handling the scofflaws without reservations. So no one else is doing it this way?

We are auditing all passes at the end of each day to confirm reservations under the passholder name. To keep traffic flowing, we do not require a "check in" for all guests upon arrival. Those without reservations who scanned a pass will receive a warning for first offense and will lose their pass for repeat offenses.

 

[marzNC]

Either 30% or 35% of capacity, I forget which. Mandated by the state I believe. What I wonder if how they decide what "capacity" is. Maybe they need to have figured out a number for legal or insurance reasons already.

From the SAM articles and podcasts, one way to figure it out is to come up with numbers based on the adjusted uphill capacity of the lifts. The speed of a lift is a known quantity. In a normal season, a quad seats 4. This season, the average will be less. Can compute based on 2 per chair and 3 per chair as a starting point.

Each ski area or multi-resort company seems to be coming up with their own approach. Approval comes from local and state public health authorities. Some states have a small organization that works with all, or most, of the ski areas/resorts. In that case, can act as a go-between. I know such an organization exists for CO, UT, NY, PA, NC but undoubtedly there are more.

 

[marzNC]

So here is how Crystal is handling the scofflaws without reservations. So no one else is doing it this way?

We are auditing all passes at the end of each day to confirm reservations under the passholder name. To keep traffic flowing, we do not require a "check in" for all guests upon arrival. Those without reservations who scanned a pass will receive a warning for first offense and will lose their pass for repeat offenses.

I've not heard of another ski resort using a third party system like EventBrite for lift access reservations.

The approach tried by ABasin during late season didn't work out very well because there wasn't a good way to catch people trying to defeat the system.

Even VR had some major issues with their first reservation system for the three Australian ski resorts in late June. Software development is hard to rush. When there is a time crunch what always suffers is proper testing of the scenarios where someone deliberately doesn't do what they are supposed to do.

The reservation systems being used for more than one resort are Epic lift access reservations for all VR locations, Ikon lift access reservations for most Partners, and Powdr parking reservations. Outside of Epic and Ikon locations, a combination of limiting season pass sales and limiting advanced online day ticket sales seems to be the most common approach. Meaning no reservations required for passholders.

MCP holders do not seem to need reservations, but haven't checked all the resorts. I know it's true for Big Sky, JH, Snowbird, and Alta. MCP holders get 2-3 free days. My guess is that while there are people who make use of the 50% discount for additional days, they probably rarely add than a day or two.

 

[marzNC]

A little off-topic, but to put the day tickets prices for Crystal in some context I looked up the prices for Sun Valley and Snowbasin for January. Same ownership but very different locations and availability of lodging that doesn't require driving. Care to guess which is which?

The more expensive tickets are for Sun Valley. For MLK weekend, the Friday before is higher than other Fridays. Snowbasin prices are noticeably lower. The full prices aren't that different, only $10-15. But the discounts are different. SV and Snowbasin are Epic Partners. Epic holders get limited days but do not need lift access reservations.

 

[marzNC]

Windham is a relatively new Ikon Partner. They are using the Ikon reservation system. What I found more interesting is what they have on their website that makes it clear which days are expected to be busy and which days are typically not busy. It's called a "capacity calendar." Part of the idea is that on busy days advanced online tickets will be required. But window tickets will be available on the less busy days. Guess the plan was needed for approval by public health authorities and they figured it might as well be public. No surprise that the busy days are weekends and holiday periods. Below is January as an example.

https://www.windhammountain.com/redgreen/

 

[StayWarm]

Copper in CO doesn't have parking reservations left for weekends in early Dec. But does have spots Dec. 21 thru Jan. 2. Perhaps those dates were only opened up recently? Two Saturdays in Jan are gone, Jan. 9 and 18. Copper opens on Nov. 30.

I just booked three Sundays between now and February at Copper -- the only spots left were in the paid lots ($25-30 for the day), which I don't necessarily mind since they're also the lots closer to the lifts, so we can avoid using the shuttles. According to the FAQ, they're releasing additional parking slots each Monday morning, so I'll be keeping an eye on that; I was surprised to see so few weekend days open already.

They do also have a system in place for no-shows on the parking reservations (you have to cancel by 6am of the day of your reservation):

1. First No Show: You will receive a courtesy reminder email
2. Second No Show: You will lose your next booked reservation
3. Third & Subsequent No Shows: You will lose all future booked reservations

I also think the parking stock is fluctuating a lot. When I booked an hour ago, there were no openings this weekend, and now there are for Sunday (again, paid lots only). I'm guessing it's people cancelling reservations ahead of time so they don't get dinged.

 

[marzNC]

They do also have a system in place for no-shows on the parking reservations (you have to cancel by 6am of the day of your reservation):

1. First No Show: You will receive a courtesy reminder email
2. Second No Show: You will lose your next booked reservation
3. Third & Subsequent No Shows: You will lose all future booked reservations

I also think the parking stock is fluctuating a lot. When I booked an hour ago, there were no openings this weekend, and now there are for Sunday (again, paid lots only). I'm guessing it's people cancelling reservations ahead of time so they don't get dinged.

That sounds like a well thought out policy!

All the Powdr resorts make a point on their websites and in news reports that people should check back often if there aren't any parking spots because of both cancellations and decision closer to the date to open up more spaces. Especially true during early season when there is no way to predict when a snowstorm or two will allow more terrain and lifts to be opened at relatively short notice.

 

[Christy]

My first instance of cancelling a reservation (for tomorrow). We need snow but are getting some rain mixed in today and tonight. It hasn't snowed much in over a week so is getting bony in places. I'll wait to see what happens this week then potentially book next week. Looks like plenty of others have cancelled too as there is good weekday availability.

 

[marzNC]

I had made reservations for 3 days in Dec for Jackson Hole a while back. Two days before the date, canceled the third day. Headed to Grand Targhee instead since Teton Pass will be open after just a few inches of new snow.

 

[TNtoTaos]

I had made reservations for 3 days in Dec for Jackson Hole a while back. Two days before the date, canceled the third day. Headed to Grand Targhee instead since Teton Pass will be open after just a few inches of new snow.

So where have you skied? Tell us about your trip!

 

[Christy]

The traffic and parking at Crystal were terrible today. Parking filled. I don't really understand how this can happen, with the reduced capacity and reservation system. I spent 50 minutes going the 6 miles on Crystal Mt Boulevard (the dead end road from the highway) which has never happened, not even on a weekend powder day in the pre-Alterra days. I did notice that they seem to have added 75 spots to each weekday's allotment this week, but 75 isn't THAT much. Or maybe it is, since so many of us are driving alone? Or are people still ignoring the reservations and taking their chances with getting a warning? Or, is Crystal just allowing too many people? Lift lines were terrible in the morning, when they were still avy bombing. That's one thing about determining capacity. Lift closures for wind, avy mitigation or low snow really throw a wrench in things.

Maybe having a parking reservation system like some places have is the better way to go?

 

[marzNC]

Maybe having a parking reservation system like some places have is the better way to go?

Well, clearly Powdr thought that parking reservations made sense for their locations. That includes Eldora, which is pretty much a locals' ski area. Other than people not realizing soon enough that reservation system exist so they may be disappointed, seems to be working okay. The limit on the number of advanced reservations is 7.

So far, the approach Alta is taking with close monitoring of parking so that people know by 8am or 9am when all the parking lots are expected to be full seems to be working. Tomorrow will be another test of the first-come, first-served concept. It will be the first powder day with enough base to have more terrain where the rocks are actually all covered.

 

[Christy]

So far, the approach Alta is taking with close monitoring of parking so that people know by 8am or 9am when all the parking lots are expected to be full seems to be working.

So they tweet or something when the lots are near full? You'll have to tell us how it goes tomorrow. There isn't cell service along the highway to Crystal for the last hour of the drive so unfortunately it wouldn't work here.