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If you're thinking a fleece gaiter is going to do the trick, think again.

#21
I believe Disney World recently banned buffs so clearly,
Interesting. I think for going on rides at a theme park, perhaps a gaiter isn't the best face covering. Mostly because it does tend to slide down a lot easier than a face mask with ear loops and/or a head strap. If I want a buff to stay up, I have to be wearing a hat and stuff it up under the hat to hold it in place. When it's not too hot, good for keeping biting bugs off my neck.
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#22
So the test was for masks that filter EXPELLED droplets, not INHALED. The test would show who you want to stay away from.....

These have been the most comfortable choice for me for every day. https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/essential-face-mask-kit-283298#or_color=1047&or_size=70& Outdoor Research is always good for rain/water proof PNW gear, but without the little filters, this mask just one layer of nylon or poly. If I'm at Timberline, where we apparently have to share chairs, I'd definitely use the filter or some other option under or over it, and I'd probably give it a little extra waterproofing spray as well.
@KBee have you worn these with the filters? I bought this for DH to use at work and well, quite frankly, its sucks. The filters do not stay in place and get saturated from your breath. The mask also starts to stink despite the claim of the fabric technology. And as you state, its just one layer of fabric in some places and if you hold it up to the light its see thru. I do not think it gives the protection it claims, especially without the "filters" in place. That being said, they did let me post a negative review, so at least the company has transparency.

I think the supply chains are starting to open, I was able to buy (yet to receive but from a large chain hardware store max of 12 per order) 3M N95 with valve NIOSH 3511 which DH desperately needs for work and we will keep on hand since we seem to be in full fire season now.

For shopping, a double layer cotton mask with a surgical mask over is my go to or a triple layer home made if I think its limited exposure
 

MoreSkiing

Certified Ski Diva
#23
Hmmm More often than not I wear 2 fleece neck warmers, And turn and then switch throughout the day. Wonder if that would suffice keeping all my nasty germs from going out and all the awful germs from coming in?? ;)
 
#24
Interesting. I think for going on rides at a theme park, perhaps a gaiter isn't the best face covering. Mostly because it does tend to slide down a lot easier than a face mask with ear loops and/or a head strap. If I want a buff to stay up, I have to be wearing a hat and stuff it up under the hat to hold it in place. When it's not too hot, good for keeping biting bugs off my neck.
Ask and you shall receive! I own this style too. No issues, pretty comfortable!
1597949749998.png
 

ski diva

Administrator
Staff member
#25
More on 'GaiterGate.' (Love that name).

Turns out things may not be as dire as originally reported. Here's a new story from the Washington Post. I'm copying and pasting it here since many of you may not be able to get through the firewall:


A lot of variables’: New research into popular gaiters highlights challenges of testing mask safety

When a team of scientists from Duke University unveiled a simple device to evaluate the effectiveness of face coverings this month, they did not anticipate that their work would end up at the center of a raging debate — over neck gaiters.


“I never in a million years expected ‘Gaitergate,’ ” said Warren S. Warren, one of the study’s authors.
The controversy stemmed from one part of the peer-reviewed study in which the researchers, described by Warren as laser experts, tested a common type of neck gaiter made of a thin polyester spandex material using the contraption they created. They observed that the single-layer gaiter appeared to perform slightly worse than their no-mask control group, leading the researchers to suggest that the porous fabric may be producing smaller respiratory droplets that can hang around in the air longer. The result of the gaiter test was highlighted by the scientists in interviews as well as in a video about the study produced by the university.

“It’s not the case that any mask is better than nothing,” chemist and physicist Martin Fischer, the study’s lead researcher, said in the video. “There are some masks that actually hurt rather than do good.” But amid heightened concerns about the efficacy of gaiters, other experts are now pushing back against the characterization that such face coverings may be “worse than nothing,” as one of the Duke study’s authors told CBS News.

In response to the Duke study, aerosol scientists have conducted their own gaiter experiments, studying the face covering’s ability to block droplets and whether it is possible to produce smaller particles similar to what the Duke researchers saw. The new research showed that when a single-layer gaiter is worn doubled up, it is highly effective at blocking a range of particle sizes, according to the results of tests done by Linsey Marr, a civil and environmental engineering professor at Virginia Tech who studies aerosols. (In the Duke study, the gaiter tested was not folded over.) Marr’s work has been supplemented by research from Ryan Davis of Trinity University in Texas, who shot water droplets at a strip of woven polyester spandex material taken from a gaiter and did not see any particle breakup or transmission. Meanwhile, Christopher Cappa, a professor at the University of California at Davis, suggested that the high number of particles detected during the Duke gaiter test may be partly due to fibers shedding from the fabric.


The results of the separate experiments were shared by the scientists on Twitter and not peer-reviewed, but Marr said the findings support the argument that even thin gaiters are “better than nothing.” “Gaiters are as effective as a mask made out of a similar material,” Marr said. “If you double over a neck gaiter, you can get very good protection.”

Marr tested two neck gaiters using a method that is similar to a procedure developed by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health to certify N95 masks. One of the gaiters was thin and 100 percent polyester, while the second was a thicker, double-layer microfiber covering made of polyester and elastane, a material commonly known as Lycra or spandex. Each gaiter was placed on a mannequin head inside a chamber with purified air, and a liquid salt solution and medical nebulizer was used to simulate saliva. The nebulizer generated a fine mist that was shot through the mouth of the mannequin at a speed that mimics talking. The droplets were aimed at another mannequin head a foot away and “gold-standard equipment,” usually reserved for aerosol science labs, tracked the particles, Marr said.

Neither gaiter performed well when very small particles measuring 0.5 microns were sprayed, blocking only about 20 percent of the droplets of that size, Marr’s research found. (Hospital-grade N95 masks are typically tested using particles that are 0.3 microns.) But at one micron, the particle size that experts say is relevant to transmission, Marr observed that the two gaiters were both able to stop at least 50 percent of the droplets. “Once you get up to three microns, they block over 90 percent,” she said, adding that there were no statistically significant differences between the gaiters tested and a cotton cloth mask that meets the requirements for the non-sewn mask design promoted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The thin gaiter’s effectiveness increased when Marr folded it over to create two layers. For all the particle sizes tested, the doubled-up gaiter was more than 90 percent effective, according to the research.


Marr said she “absolutely” would wear a neck gaiter herself as long as it is doubled over.
“I had my kids wearing them early on,” she said. Based on her findings, Marr concluded that gaiters, even single-layer ones, are “better than nothing” and cast doubt on the Duke researchers’ theory that the breathable fabric was somehow responsible for creating the smaller droplets their device detected. “Filtration doesn’t work like a sieve,” Marr said.


Over in San Antonio, Davis, an assistant professor of chemistry, conducted his own test, shooting 100-micron water droplets at a strip of material taken from a Buff-brand gaiter. He saw no evidence of the droplets breaking up upon impact. “We actually observed the opposite; hundreds of thousands of droplets accumulated on top of the mask material and coalesced into a single, larger drop,” Davis said in an emailed statement. “This really suggests the neck gaiter material is efficient at filtering the majority of large droplets generated during speaking and is still much better than no mask at all.”

One possible explanation for the higher particle count recorded during the gaiter test performed at Duke is that the fabric itself was shedding fibers, said Cappa, who has been studying mask efficacy and aerosol particle emission. Using a thin gaiter made out of 100 percent polyester microfiber, Cappa ran tests in which he wore the covering while performing various actions such as speaking aloud, mouthing words silently and moving his jaw around in a motion similar to chewing.
The tests showed more particles being emitted when Cappa was wearing the gaiter compared with trials of the different scenarios done barefaced.


Cappa said he and his team believe that the friction between people’s faces and masks while they are speaking or moving their mouths may cause some of the fibers in the fabric to break down. In a lab setting, the airflow ends up carrying the particles to the detector. “So what we’re actually looking at is a combination of the particles that we are actually expiring or exhaling and the particles that are getting produced from friction with the mask, from fibers on the mask or even skin cells as well,” he said. The issue is that the researchers have been unable to distinguish the particles based on their origins, Cappa said. But, he noted, mask effectiveness can probably be inferred when the findings are combined with results from other experiments, such as the tests conducted by Marr.

“It allows us to say that even if the gaiters are shedding these fibers, that they’re doing as good a job as many other cloth masks on reducing excretory particle emissions,” he said.
Though Warren stressed that the Duke study — a proof-of-concept paper presenting the simple testing device — never intended to “decimate an industry based on one person and one gaiter,” he said he and the other authors “happily stand behind our experimental data.” “The measurements are what they are,” Warren said, adding that the Duke team is “delighted” to see the emergence of new research.

In response to Cappa’s alternative explanation of fiber shedding, Warren said the suggestion is “certainly not a crazy idea.” But it’s not necessarily a reassuring one, he said. “It still scares me as an explanation, because it means that stuff is getting through there that wouldn’t get through for other masks.” For instance, Cappa noted that there is the possibility that if some of the fibers coming off the masks are contaminated, then it could be a potential source of infectious particles. It is critical that people regularly wash their cloth masks, he said.


The continued debate over the effectiveness of gaiters highlights the challenges faced by researchers who are aiming to provide answers to the public amid a pandemic plagued by widespread uncertainties. Testing non-medical-grade coverings has been especially difficult, said Christopher Sulmonte, project manager for the Biocontainment Unit at Johns Hopkins Medicine.
“We’re looking at types, we’re looking at materials, but it’s also how those materials are formed into the mask or how many layers the mask has,” Sulmonte said. “There’s a lot of variables that have to be considered.”


When choosing a mask, Sulmonte urged people to prioritize fit, function and frequency: whether the mask fits properly with little to no gaps, whether the material is opaque and layered, and whether it can be worn consistently. Sulmonte said he wears a two-layer cotton mask with a filter and ear loops, and he would recommend similar masks over a neck gaiter. By design, gaiters are harder to remove safely, because pulling them down involves touching the fabric, which may be contaminated, he said, adding: “So, from an infection-control standpoint, that could be a little less effective.” “The big thing is that we know that there are masks that work better,” he said.
 

TeleChica

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#27
The purpose of the original study was to examine the METHOD of measuring expelled droplets. Not to test the masks themselves. The media jumped on the results of their mask demonstration tests (which was done by ONE person for most masks--again as a demonstration ) and some unfortunate quotes. Everyone has accepted a non-peer reviewed study that was very poorly covered by most media as fact. I'm very glad to see some push-back. Hopefully we will get some well-designed mask studies and have a better idea which masks will protect us (we already know N95 and cotton work well--as recommended by the CDC), because for certain situations, cotton won't cut it, as we know. (Medical editor here, so I have some perspective on how science is often poorly reported on in the media.)
 
#28
I hope they work this out as hiking and fumbling about for a mask when you have to pass others is a real pain. A gaiter would be better, though it's been warm enough so far that I haven't wanted one around my neck.
 

KBee

Angel Diva
#29
So the test was for masks that filter EXPELLED droplets, not INHALED. The test would show who you want to stay away from.....



@KBee have you worn these with the filters? I bought this for DH to use at work and well, quite frankly, its sucks. The filters do not stay in place and get saturated from your breath. The mask also starts to stink despite the claim of the fabric technology. And as you state, its just one layer of fabric in some places and if you hold it up to the light its see thru. I do not think it gives the protection it claims, especially without the "filters" in place. That being said, they did let me post a negative review, so at least the company has transparency.

I think the supply chains are starting to open, I was able to buy (yet to receive but from a large chain hardware store max of 12 per order) 3M N95 with valve NIOSH 3511 which DH desperately needs for work and we will keep on hand since we seem to be in full fire season now.

For shopping, a double layer cotton mask with a surgical mask over is my go to or a triple layer home made if I think its limited exposure
I did try them with the filters. They were okay. I just need something waterproof and breathable, for skiing in the rain...
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#30
More on 'GaiterGate.' (Love that name).
....When choosing a mask, Sulmonte urged people to prioritize fit, function and frequency: whether the mask fits properly with little to no gaps, whether the material is opaque and layered, and whether it can be worn consistently. Sulmonte said he wears a two-layer cotton mask with a filter and ear loops, and he would recommend similar masks over a neck gaiter. By design, gaiters are harder to remove safely, because pulling them down involves touching the fabric, which may be contaminated, he said, adding: “So, from an infection-control standpoint, that could be a little less effective.” “The big thing is that we know that there are masks that work better,” he said.
Let's say you go to ski and wear a neck/mouth/nose cover of some sort. Maybe it's a fleece neck gaiter, or a full-head balaclava that covers the nose and mouth and cheeks and forehead. Or maybe you've got a fancy face mask that holds a disposable filter. You've worked out how to make this thing seal itself to your face around its perimeter even though you are wearing a helmet and goggles. You've also worked out how to lower it to eat, drink, and breathe when you need to do those things.

You stand in the lift line waiting your turn, 6' of space between you and all the others, and you're all covered up for safety.

Now let's also say that there is a person in line in front of you who is unknowingly sick and shedding coronavirus particles because their mask is not fitted tightly around its perimeter. You move slowly through this person's exhaled virus-filled air as the line advances at a snail's pace. You breathe in through your doubled-up buff or fleece or whatever, and those virus particles hanging in the air you move through get stuck on the outside of your mask. You're safe! Or are you?

You ride up, then get off the lift and collect yourself before heading down. You need to breathe as you ski, and your face coverings constrict your breathing. So you reach up and lower your face covering enough to allow you to breathe in the nice cold air. You have folded over your gaiter, or crumbled up your buff, and your glove/mitten has touched the outside where the virus particles are stuck. You grab your poles and ski down. Then you get in line again and raise your face covering back up.

Does anyone see any problems here? Help me understand how this is going to work for skiers.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
#31
Some physics...the droplets are heavier than air. But it's cold so they could "hang" around a little longer than possible. So going "through the cloud" could be harmful for sure. But I suspect that a limited amount of virus is going to "land" on you and your masking.

I have yet to hear what the viral dose is needed for infection. Is it high or low when it's not directly sprayed and inhaled by you.
 
#34
I have no particular expertise in this matter, but I think outdoor spread has been covered, somewhat, in reputable sources. Here's one article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/us/coronavirus-what-to-do-outside.html

“I think outdoors is so much better than indoors in almost all cases,” said Linsey Marr, an engineering professor and aerosol scientist at Virginia Tech. “There’s so much dilution that happens outdoors. As long as you’re staying at least six feet apart, I think the risk is very low.”

Pandemic life is safer outdoors, in part, because even a light wind will quickly dilute the virus. If a person nearby is sick, the wind will scatter the virus, potentially exposing nearby people but in far smaller quantities, which are less likely to be harmful.

“The virus load is important,” said Eugene Chudnovsky, a physicist at Lehman College and the City University of New York’s Graduate Center. “A single virus will not make anyone sick; it will be immediately destroyed by the immune system. The belief is that one needs a few hundred to a few thousand of SARS-CoV-2 viruses to overwhelm the immune response.”

While the risk of outdoor transmission is low, it can happen. In one study of more than 7,300 cases in China, just one was connected to outdoor transmission. In that case, a 27-year-old man had a conversation outdoors with a traveler who had just returned from Wuhan. Seven days later, he had his first symptoms of Covid-19.

“The risk is lower outdoors, but it’s not zero,” said Shan Soe-Lin, a lecturer at the Yale Jackson Institute for Global Affairs. “And I think the risk is higher if you have two people who are stationary next to each other for a long time, like on a beach blanket, rather than people who are walking and passing each other.”

If I'm interpreting this correctly, I am not worried about being around strangers, as long as they aren't talking/yelling, are wearing masks (even if it doesn't fit perfectly), are 6' from me, and I'm not crowded in the middle of them for an hour.

But maybe being stuck in a long lift line, where people might not always be 6', and might have various degrees of masking, and might be talking, and the line is moving slowly...that to me sounds like not a great situation.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...h/safe-activities-during-covid19/art-20489385

High-risk outdoor activities

Bringing many people together in close contact for a longer period of time poses the highest risk of COVID-19 spread.

Examples include:

  • Large gatherings. Being in large crowds of people where it's difficult to stay spaced at least 6 feet (2 meters) apart poses the highest risk. The longer people are together in these situations, the higher the risk. Weddings, festivals and parades are examples.
 

Kiragirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
#35
Yesterday I went to my local ski shop grand opening for the winter (Ski Haus in Brewster, NY). I went to check out boots (more on that in another post) but asked the woman at the desk if she knew what the story was about face masks for skiing, and that typical gaiters may not be enough or allowed. She actually seemed a bit annoyed that I asked, didn't really answer so I started to look at something in a different area. Then, maybe after thinking for a minute about it, did have a thoughtful answer: She said she did not know what the correct answer was/did not know what will be required, but then kind of mentioned for people who have an Epic pass, for example, would need to know what the state-by-state requirements are.

I'm wondering how to learn about ski mask requirements state-by-state, or if the medical professionals even have the time to address this issue. It might come down to wearing an "approved' medical mask with a gaiter over it (if you usually wear a gaiter). (as someone else mentioned) THEN, are super-trained lift attendants going to request looking under your gaiter to see if you have a mask on? Would that be required every time you go to a lift? A different lift? Could they give you a sticker/tag or something to indicate that your mask situation has already been checked? Confusing.
 
#36
I'm wondering how to learn about ski mask requirements state-by-state, or if the medical professionals even have the time to address this issue. It might come down to wearing an "approved' medical mask with a gaiter over it (if you usually wear a gaiter). (as someone else mentioned) THEN, are super-trained lift attendants going to request looking under your gaiter to see if you have a mask on? Would that be required every time you go to a lift? A different lift? Could they give you a sticker/tag or something to indicate that your mask situation has already been checked? Confusing.
From what I've been reading for multiple regions and Australia, face coverings will be required at all U.S. ski areas/resorts. That's the general guidance coming out of SAM and NSAA, the organizations for managers at all levels in the American ski industry.

Based on what happened in Australia, lifties may remind people to cover up their nose and mouth but that's as far as it is likely to go. Just as it will be up to guests to decide if they are comfortable riding a chair lift with someone they don't know. If a group of 4 wants to load a quad together, a liftie is not going to ask if they are related or if they arrive at the ski resort together.

What a ski resort reserves the right to do is ban someone who is flagrant about violating policies about face masks or social distancing. Perhaps for a day, but could result in losing a season pass. No resort wants to get shut down because a guest demonstrates unsafe behavior that could lead to someone testing positive, whether another guest or an employee. That's just my guess.

I've been putting some observations in this thread. Not worth reading much before August given how fast things were changing before that.

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/i...ats-going-to-happen-next-season.24901/page-16

Does that help?
 

kiki

Angel Diva
#37
a lot of the discussion on masks has been related to the difference between minimum requirements that the resorts will enforce versus what we individually feel will protect us and others. Obviously, the scale changes from person to person.

But I put that aside for the moment and decided I was interested in logistics and what is practicable and feasible, as I think that will weigh in too.

In the lift line we are wearing bulky gloves, it’s hard to get in to our pockets, we may be carrying our skis, the wind/snow/rain may be buffeting us. Our helmets and hair block access to our ears. All this made me think use of a gator would be better, however then I tried it out! Urg! I dug my two different ones out of storage and tried them on with helmet and goggles, pulling them up over my nose. I normally pull up to my lips but I’ve never pulled over my nose. Clearly the ones I have won’t work as I could not breathe and the fog was crazy. At that point one of those blue paper masks I use is 100times more comfortable, but what will happen to that in the rain and snow? And am I dexterous enough to juggle this extra step in to an already complicated juggle getting on the gondola etc. I am already picturing the skis falling one way, a glove another lol!

more experiments are needed before I decide what to do.

In theory this is a highly debatable topic, but in reality and practice I am curious to see where most of us land.
 

Abbi

Angel Diva
#38
I have purchased a couple of these to use with facemasks. It was recommended by a schoolteacher who feels it gives her a little more breathing room. I have yet to adequately experiment with it but it does at least have little hooks on each side to attach to something on a face mask. This may be the year of extreme creativity to be able to go out but remain safe! And such things do not play to my skills or my arthritic fingers!
 

Attachments

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
#39
@Abbi - I'm interested in what you think about that 3D mask. I've seen them and was wondering about it for skiing and daily life. I'm finding that when I wear a fabric mask and need to talk a lot, I get winded and suffer for hours after. Feels like an Asthma attack.
 

Abbi

Angel Diva
#40
@Abbi - I'm interested in what you think about that 3D mask. I've seen them and was wondering about it for skiing and daily life. I'm finding that when I wear a fabric mask and need to talk a lot, I get winded and suffer for hours after. Feels like an Asthma attack.
@Jilly - Do you mean the one that has been discussed with the magnet to attach the top side? If yes, that one concerns me as it appears to be open below the chin. I don’t want to suck up unfiltered air while near others. I’m hoping when someone here gets one that they will review it for us.
 

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