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'I have this voice in my head that says I’m not what “outdoorsy women” should look like'

bounceswoosh

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I am often very confused by the assumptions made about fat men vs fat women and their ability to do active things. Maybe it's because of football? Some of those dudes are quite fat, but also incredibly athletic - so we know it's possible for men. For some reason, it doesn't translate.

(PS, men's XL/short insulated pants arrive. They're going to match my helmet nicely, and they're shorter than some of my women's pants!)
 

newboots

Angel Diva
I am often very confused by the assumptions made about fat men vs fat women and their ability to do active things. Maybe it's because of football? Some of those dudes are quite fat, but also incredibly athletic - so we know it's possible for men. For some reason, it doesn't translate.

Football, baseball, maybe, could be.

But I think it’s plain, old-fashioned sexism. Our looks are paramount. It’s more important that we look ravishing on the field, mountain, trail, court, or ice than how well we perform. Oh, and if you perform well it’s “really good for a girl.”

And I chose the word “ravishing” on purpose.

Our culture tells us to be drawn to a powerful male body, but the female body shouldn’t be about power and strength. We are (supposed to be) delicate flowers who need protection from big, strong men.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
I read a few of Braverman’s columns and ran across a link to an article about solo backpacking while female:


https://www.outsideonline.com/2244786/solo-backpacking-controlling-partner


She used a phrase that astonished me, paraphrasing :

Backpacking alone is one of the only times I’ve been able to exist as a body and a person without worrying about how other people might ty to claim my body for their own.

At first I thought, this is the kind of nutty statement that makes people reject feminism. Then I sat with it for a moment, and realized the deep truth in it. She’s not talking only about rape, I think, but about these other body issues. Other people judging our bodies, using them in service of their own issues, whether to ogle or mock or whatever.
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
F*** that voice.

There is a woman, Byron Katie, author/speaker who teaches that all human misery is a result of believing your thoughts and that the path to enlightenment comes through challenging those thoughts. She teaches something called "The Work" which mostly walks you through challenging distressing thoughts. It consists of four questions you are supposed to ask yourself about the thought.

1. Is that true?
2. Can you absolutely, positively know that it is true?
3. How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
4. Who would you be without that thought?
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I read a few of Braverman’s columns and ran across a link to an article about solo backpacking while female:


https://www.outsideonline.com/2244786/solo-backpacking-controlling-partner


She used a phrase that astonished me, paraphrasing :

Backpacking alone is one of the only times I’ve been able to exist as a body and a person without worrying about how other people might ty to claim my body for their own.

At first I thought, this is the kind of nutty statement that makes people reject feminism. Then I sat with it for a moment, and realized the deep truth in it. She’s not talking only about rape, I think, but about these other body issues. Other people judging our bodies, using them in service of their own issues, whether to ogle or mock or whatever.

I both agree and disagree with you @newboots, there is deep truth in that but I do feel that part of the maturation process is to figure out a way to have ownership of yourself/your body and to feel that kind of peace more often than just when you are backpacking alone.

My High School had 4000 people and 9 floors and I transferred there from a school with 200 kids K-8 who'd all been together since kindergarten (except Miriam who dared to transfer in in 6th grade). My high-school classmates used to chuckle at me (non-malignant/not bothersome) because everyone knew not to touch me as I had a nasty little habit of slugging people who touched me without permission (mostly involuntarily). I chose to handle it that way for various reasons and over the years have handled things the same way. You touch me inappropriately you get hit, period.

I think because of this I don't have the same sense of helplessness or powerlessness that that sentence you referenced implies (things have happened but I've never been a passive victim) I do think that implicit in that is the idea that women are somehow less and our bodies don't deserve to be ours (because what about at home, does she feel that way around her SO? Maybe she needs a new SO). I've had conversations with women who were appalled that I hit people who touched me and felt like I had done something horrible, as if I didn't deserve any more respect than to be touched without my permission.

I don't think we get anywhere until we stop feeling sorry for ourselves, asking other people to fight our battles, and own that we are powerful enough and worthwhile enough individuals to take charge of our personhood. You can't make me feel bad by ogling or mocking me unless I allow you to (that's why some women feel powerful when they get ogled, they've chosen to define what it means to them differently than others). I do not have to buy in to your pathos and bullshit. I am never going to put myself in a position where hundreds of millions of people need to act right for me to feel OK.

I dunno, reading that brought up such strong emotions (can't you tell) that I'm probably not expressing myself well but basically that's Not OK, even if many women feel that way and we need to fix it.
 

captain_hug99

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I also live in Colorado and I do some pretty tough hikes. If you've ever heard of the Manitou Incline, I've done it.
https://www.manitouincline.net/main.htm

When I'm on one of these difficult hikes, everyone I've come across has always been super supportive! I had people cheer me on while trying to summit the incline. Everyone needs more of that. At least I've gotten my rear off the couch and am being active, don't squelch that.
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
There is a woman, Byron Katie, author/speaker who teaches that all human misery is a result of believing your thoughts and that the path to enlightenment comes through challenging those thoughts. She teaches something called "The Work" which mostly walks you through challenging distressing thoughts. It consists of four questions you are supposed to ask yourself about the thought.

+1 on The Work.
Neighbor was inspired after seeing her in person a few years back and shared how experience changed him, so I have read a few of her books. So true about challenging your own thoughts and turning them around.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
It’s an interesting conversation, @Obrules15, and I like to dig into it. I’m not sure I take her astonishing statement in quite the same way that you do, but your story about this is inspiring.

When I think about Braverman’s statement and your response to unwelcome touch in comparison to each other, I feel the power in your sturdy boundaries. I also hear her voice - alone on the trail there’s nobody you might have to hit. You don’t have to deal with it. It has no opportunity to be an issue.

I didn’t hear her literally. (When I did, initially, it sounded overblown and excessive.). But figuratively ... how often are we free of our culture’s refusal to leave our bodies alone, to accept our complete control over them? Elements of our culture want to control contraception, abortion, the definition of “legitimate rape,” the rights of husbands/fathers over their wives and children - I could go on. What would it be like to walk down the street dressed for a hot summer day and know that nobody was judging or ogling your body? I’m not freed from that knowledge. It does bother me, and sometimes scares me.

I appreciate the stance you’ve taken on this. A stance I strive for, in a way, but I’m not sure I’d ever quite feel the same. Might have something to do with age. I came of age as the second wave of feminism was getting underway. Already acculturated in the 50s and 60s. We have come a long way.
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I didn’t hear her literally. (When I did, initially, it sounded overblown and excessive.). But figuratively ... how often are we free of our culture’s refusal to leave our bodies alone, to accept our complete control over them? Elements of our culture want to control contraception, abortion, the definition of “legitimate rape,” the rights of husbands/fathers over their wives and children - I could go on. What would it be like to walk down the street dressed for a hot summer day and know that nobody was judging or ogling your body? I’m not freed from that knowledge. It does bother me, and sometimes scares me.

I appreciate the stance you’ve taken on this. A stance I strive for, in a way, but I’m not sure I’d ever quite feel the same. Might have something to do with age. I came of age as the second wave of feminism was getting underway. Already acculturated in the 50s and 60s. We have come a long way.

This is my job, I'm steeped in this every day. I still remember the first time I offered to tie the tubes on a woman who asked what about her husband. I got a stupid look on my face because I had no idea why I should care about what he wanted (still don't care but now I understand the issue and can quickly explain the workarounds-"oops had to take a look inside, we were a little worried").

Fast forward 18 years and I've been doing these gymnastics the whole time. I play the game where I strategically place my students or residents to distract husbands so I can talk to wives or use translator phones instead of live translators to ensure conversations with the woman. Up through the early 70's it was illegal to do a mastectomy on a woman for breast CA without the husbands consent. The other day someone didn't get an epidural because the husband threatened the anesthesiologist. It's all around every day. Doesn't make it right.

To me the biggest challenge is not the reality, but that we believe we deserve better and we believe we're worth it, and that we believe we define ourselves, because truly though we've given lip service to these things I find that modern American women often value themselves the same way as oppressed women from third world countries. And even when we want to be treated better we ask someone else to fix the problem for us.

Do you know a man is much more likely to survive a heart attack long term than a woman because when a man has a heart attack he goes home and his wife changes his diet and makes him exercise, whereas a woman goes home and keeps taking care of everyone else but herself and therefore dies earlier.

In obstetrics there are a few conditions where bedrest and hospitalization are better than going home but when you look at the data it's because hospitalization forces women to stop being the caretakers to the world. If they go home, despite potentially lethal consequences they keep taking care of everyone but themselves.

We allow ourselves to be last on the list and most of the time (IMHO) we don't even consider it a problem. That's the problem.

I know this probably makes many uncomfortable because the things I say don't jibe with what we've been told all our lives about our place and our worth, but to me that means I just need to keep at it.
 

SallyCat

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I hiked the Vermont section of the Appalachian Trail a couple of years ago, and my trip coincided with a "bubble" of thru-hikers headed to Maine from Georgia. Obviously by the time they hit Vermont, they were incredibly fit, seasoned backpackers. One thing I definitely noticed was that the male hikers all looked muscular and lean as beef jerky. It was such a consistent physical type that you could always pick a male thru-hiker out of a crowd of other hikers at a shelter.

The women were much more varied in physical appearance. I spent a lot of time getting passed on the trail by unbelievably fit and strong women, and there was no "type." In fact, most of the female thru-hikers didn't look particularly "athletic" at all in the stereotypical sense until you saw them dancing effortlessly up a steep, rocky trail that left the duffers like me gasping and taking repeated rest breaks.

Others can comment I'm sure on the physiological reasons for the disparity between male and female hikers, but to me it's a cultural issue; we ought to stop pretending that there's only one narrow definition of what strength and fitness look like for women.
 

skiwest

Certified Ski Diva
Good article and it's really part of the reason I like skiing (and the mountains) in the first place. The mountain doesn't care if you're fat or thin, old or young, pretty or plain, or even in shape or not. You can do everything in your power to prepare and have the best chance of a great day, but in the end, the mountain decides whether you're able to pursue your goal. The comments and "concerns" of others back home ("is that safe for you?" is probably the most benign one I've heard) become so irrelevant in that setting, and for many of us, it's one of the only places where we can finally try our hand at something challenging without worrying about appearance, body fat, brand name workout clothing, etc. It's liberating to take on physical challenges without being subject to the male gaze; even though sexism remains rampant in the outdoors in many ways, it seems to matter less for me there because I know that my day depends on my preparation and on the whims of the weather, the terrain, and all the other "real" factors. Learning that others' perceptions matter so little outside was a freeing realization for me, and learning that it's okay to try things that aren't "safe" can really be freeing for women as a whole too.
 

Divegirl

Angel Diva
I very much identify w/ this article. I am a plus size skier, scuba diver/snorkeler, biker, hiker. I love being outside and playing sports. That's why I joined here and stayed, I was welcomed for who I was not what I was or wasn't.

I have been plus size all my life, yes, I got and still get comments but surprisingly, I have gotten many compliments from men (women tend to ignore me) - not on looks but how I look performing - skiing, biking especially. I do find myself making degrading comments about myself as it doesn't seem to hurt as much if I say it 1st or the person who was going to comment anyways just nods in agreement rather than saying it.

I have cobbled together "outfits" from the men's department, bought multiples of items if I found a "plus size" in something I was looking for and drooled over lovely jackets and pants in the threads here. I am working my way downward weight wise but have a long way to go. I though I was done skiing a few years ago as my boots were toast and I wasn't sure I wanted another custom pair. No one could fit me because of my calves - I either got told out right no way or spent time having someone try to jam me into a men's boot. I finally found someone who say he could and did. Slowly manufacturers are realizing that plus size women want the same gear as regular women - I can now find most all the same items in women's plus sizes.

Happy Thanksgiving all!
 

Jenny

Angel Diva
@Obrules15 - I'm not quite sure how to ask this, but do you see a range of socioeconomically diverse patients or a more homogeneous clientele? If different, do you see any patterns or is it just all over the place?

I ask only because we were at a friends gathering recently, and I can't remember what exactly we were talking about, but looking at the group someone made the comment about how all the women there were pretty strong personalities with opinions and it made me realize once again how my view of things is skewed by the people around me.

I can't imagine not getting an epidural because my husband said no.
 

Obrules15

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
It’s an interesting conversation, @Obrules15, and I like to dig into it. I’m not sure I take her astonishing statement in quite the same way that you do, but your story about this is inspiring.

I appreciate the stance you’ve taken on this. A stance I strive for, in a way, but I’m not sure I’d ever quite feel the same. Might have something to do with age. I came of age as the second wave of feminism was getting underway. Already acculturated in the 50s and 60s. We have come a long way.

I should clarify, I wasn't some personal space/feminist crusader in high school, but the transition from small private school to very large public high school with so MANY people (200-4000) was very difficult for me and I was extremely twitchy and irritable (If you can imagine 30-50 teenagers trying to cram onto a freight elevator to get from the 1st to the 9th floor in time to make it to the next class, because you might not make it up the stairs in time otherwise). Too many people, overstimulated nervous system-therefore I tended to react aggressively or over react to unexpected contact, even to relatively innocent contact.

But it set the stage for what my personal space expectations were and how people treated me, which made a difference in how I developed. I didn't make a conscious decision to do that (my overstimulated nervous system did), but when I look at the result (people learning to respect my personal space) I realize that to a certain extent we can control how people learn to interact with us, and we can train ourselves on what to accept and what not to accept.

I think everybody has a line where they will react forcefully to encroachments it's just that some people are more permissive, others less. What we accept makes a difference and our behavior 100% trains those around us, they will continue to do things that we accept and they will change behaviors that we don't (how this plays out is another story, but there will be change).
 

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