I am Not Excited for Ski Season :(

[contesstant]

I was on a chair recently over an expansive, uncrowded groomer watching a very good skier carving fast turns down the slope. Was amazed he had all the space he could want yet he came in so close to a young snowboarder, turning only an inch or two away from her (assuming her 'cause pink outfit). His arrogance in maintaining his line, not changing it even though it would have been both easy to do and considerate, was infuriating.

There is a jackass who was new to Snowbasin last year who does this ALL.THE.TIME. He wears a "Team Sugar Ski Team" jacket and rips around like he is God's gift to skiing, and he has buzzed me more times than I can count. I have yelled at him but he either doesn't hear me or pretends he doesn't (Because he is God's gift, ya know.)

I worry less about skilled skiers like this overall BUT you never know when someone might diverge even slightly from their line, or you might hit a patch of ice for hell's sake and suddenly you become a bowling ball (or the pin.) So, going that close at that high of an angle at speed is inexcusable.

@dloveski, I know quite a few folks who have been skiing The Cottonwoods resorts (both big and little) for decades and they all agree that it has just devolved into sheer madness since all the resorts went on IKON. Would you agree with that? It is unequivocally what has caused the issues at Snowbasin. Snowbasin was on Mountain Collective and we saw an uptick in mostly locals sneaking over to Basin and being surprised as they had never been, then they went on Epic and the "fur collared" Park City crowd showed up but it was nothing compared to what IKON has brought. Throw in the (paid for??) Ski Magazine #1 ranking (again, the shiny "new" toy with fancy lodges) and it is just insane and causes me so much sadness and frustration. I've skied Mammoth and the Tahoe resorts over the years, and they couldn't touch the madness that Snowbasin has become. Snowbasin marketing loves to tout that they have the most parking in the Wasatch, never mind that the mountain cannot handle that many people.

Anyway, I'm still pondering how an organized effort to push for enhanced safety enforcement could be implemented. Very open to ideas!

 

[McJoy]

I wonder if the apps and rfid ski passes can be used to help monitor safety.
You tracked yourself going over x mph, pass temporarily turned off. Do it y times, pass revoked. At the very least there should be pop up warnings saying “this is an unsafe speed” or “this speed creates a dangerous environment on a blue/green rated trail where young skiers are building their skills. You could seriously hurt another skier” Of course the unsafe skiers/boarders would just stop using the app to track. But maybe it can still be automated with the pass technology. “Red light camera” type videos in problem areas that can identify ppl by their pass. Video to confirm they got the right person. Suspend/revoke passes.
I once screamed my face off at a young male who turned from a trail above onto - not just a green trail but the actual bunny learning hill with the magic carpet, going insanely fast and cut around my daughter (who was 5 at the time) in such a close call. And when I caught him and screamed at him he acted like I was crazy - not apologetic in the least. On the freaking bunny slope!

 

[Jilly]

I thought that Ikon and Epic had removed the "speed" from their apps.

 

[SnowHot]

I think this goes along with my question about examples of people striving for more vertical. How do you know they're trying to get a speed record? Do people hear kids bragging in the lift line?

I feel that before IKON (or SkiTracks or any other speed/vertical recording app) removes that feature, it needs to be proven that the app itself is leading to the unsafe behavior. I'm certainly not saying that it doesn't happen, but just from seeing people straight lining, I'm just not sure how to link it to an app and speed records.

I'm with @snoWYmonkey about resorts eliminating leaderboards where skiers try to top the list for vert or # of runs skied.

In the past I recall people with Garmin or logging stuff on Strava who were getting competitive about how fast they clocked their time on any given ski day.
Stuff like that encourages speed.

As for Patrollers, they should not be speed police. They should be first aid and avalanche mitigation.
Resorts need to be more proactive about having safety crews who are stationed in choke points and high traffic areas.

And, when resorts are adding new terrain, they should strongly consider avoiding the funnel into already crowded runs.

Since Covid, nearly all resorts are more crowded because so many people are *WFH*.
Now that workplaces are requiring employees to show up at the office at least 3 days a week, we may see a difference in crowds in the coming year.

I will admit, I rarely ski on weekends, but when I do, I'm always surprised how weekend skiers tend to ski.
My husband often says, "Weekend skiers ski east/west. Weekday skiers ski north/south."

Last Sunday we skied because a friend was skiing with us who is unable to ski weekdays. I had a few near misses with weekend warriors. Skied Tuesday and Wednesday with zero lift lines and no close calls.
My attitude on Sunday was, "Good to see everyone out and the resort making $$"

What exactly is the balance between building the ski industry and making it safer, and less crowded?
Tricky, eh?

 

[Sheena]

I have been in a slump, for the past two seasons., though there were other issues rather than just crowds impacting that feeling. This season I am actually excited, but the prospect of the impending crowding does put a bit of a damper on it. I am not an early morning person, so having to get up earlier and earlier, just to make it to the resort feels exhausting. 5 years ago, we could leave our house at 7:45/8 and be up and ready for my kids lessons by 8:30/8:40. Now, if we don't want to sit in traffic for over an hour, we have to leave at 7 am at the latest.

Not sure if this has been posted yet or not, but there was an article about what JH is doing in response to the death of the ski instructor there at the end of the season: https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/spor...cle_75584bd8-b148-11ef-8f2e-47e2da3e1fe0.html

I think there are things that can be done in terms of consequences, but in terms of catching people it will be more tricky, at least IMO.

I don't think raising the prices is necessarily the right answer. Though less people on the slopes, having more money to invest in the sport doesnt really make you a safer skier.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

we would ski super defensive, at the edge of runs using tight turns with me right behind her as "protection".

I am not sure how the runs are configured where you are? Where I ski I rarely encourage my guests to ski the edges. I always leave enough room for people to pass me on the edge. For many the edges are the fast lane. It is also common for skiers to enter a run from the trees or hit the edge as a jump. While I would win the lawsuit, maybe, I prefer not being injured to begin with. This may not be applicable to where you ski, but I see it a lot where I work.

 

[SnowHot]

I have been in a slump, for the past two seasons., though there were other issues rather than just crowds impacting that feeling. This season I am actually excited, but the prospect of the impending crowding does put a bit of a damper on it. I am not an early morning person, so having to get up earlier and earlier, just to make it to the resort feels exhausting. 5 years ago, we could leave our house at 7:45/8 and be up and ready for my kids lessons by 8:30/8:40. Now, if we don't want to sit in traffic for over an hour, we have to leave at 7 am at the latest.

Not sure if this has been posted yet or not, but there was an article about what JH is doing in response to the death of the ski instructor there at the end of the season: https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/spor...cle_75584bd8-b148-11ef-8f2e-47e2da3e1fe0.html

I think there are things that can be done in terms of consequences, but in terms of catching people it will be more tricky, at least IMO.

I don't think raising the prices is necessarily the right answer. Though less people on the slopes, having more money to invest in the sport doesnt really make you a safer skier.

I rarely ski past noon because we get up and ski eat lunch and get home to get work done.
Yesterday I was up early, and ended up skiing until 3:00 and was talking to my friend I was skiing with about how small the crowds are in the mid afternoon.
I am actually considering going in the afternoons for a bit and see if those crowds are less on a regular basis.
I mean unless you want first tracks, afternoons may be great!
And first tracks....?? Really?? We're lucky if untracked lasts more than an hour anyway.

 

[Sheena]

I am actually considering going in the afternoons for a bit and see if those crowds are less on a regular basis.
I mean unless you want first tracks, afternoons may be great!
And first tracks....?? Really?? We're lucky if untracked lasts more than an hour anyway.

This past Sunday we did that, and got great parking, crowds were lower. I generally don't care so much if I get first tracks or get the best chance at untracked powder. I just like to go out, cruise around and enjoy being outdoors. For some people, I guess that rush is important, but not having to wake up early, getting some stuff around the house and enjoying the less crowded afternoon is much more fun to me.

 

[contesstant]

I have been in a slump, for the past two seasons., though there were other issues rather than just crowds impacting that feeling. This season I am actually excited, but the prospect of the impending crowding does put a bit of a damper on it. I am not an early morning person, so having to get up earlier and earlier, just to make it to the resort feels exhausting. 5 years ago, we could leave our house at 7:45/8 and be up and ready for my kids lessons by 8:30/8:40. Now, if we don't want to sit in traffic for over an hour, we have to leave at 7 am at the latest.

Not sure if this has been posted yet or not, but there was an article about what JH is doing in response to the death of the ski instructor there at the end of the season: https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/spor...cle_75584bd8-b148-11ef-8f2e-47e2da3e1fe0.html

I think there are things that can be done in terms of consequences, but in terms of catching people it will be more tricky, at least IMO.

I don't think raising the prices is necessarily the right answer. Though less people on the slopes, having more money to invest in the sport doesnt really make you a safer skier.

A Speed Wrangler team at JH. I like that!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

A Speed Wrangler team at JH. I like that!

They have been wrangling speeders for many years. I wish they were more mobile. It is great to have them at pinch points and slow zones but I wish they would appear in random places too.

 

[dloveski]

I feel like in Summit County, the weekend crowds peak from something like 10 or 11am until 1 or 2pm depending on the day. First thing is not so bad, but then more and more people make their way out, and it just gets more and more crowded until people start to leave after lunch.

I have become a HUGE fan of the afternoon ski on Fridays and weekends, getting out in the 12:30-1pm timeframe and skiing until close. It's not as good early season, when the base is lower and you can't always find fun off-piste. Also, the days are SHORT that time of year, and it can start getting really cold after 2pm or so when the sun starts going behind the ridgelines.

However, once we're in peak season and the base is good, from maybe late January on, it still feels pretty ok to ski a weekend day that way, imho. This does assume you are not a powderhound. I personally would rather ski leftovers and have it be easy than fight crowds for fresh snow. I'm not sure it's even possible to have a weekend powder day in Summit County and have it not be a total fiasco anymore, really.

Oh, also, weekend crowds are one of the big reasons I take the bus. You can roll in anytime and not worry about parking in that case, which rules. But good bus service to ski areas is also hard to come by, as we all know.

My first trip to Aspen Snowmass last year ended with a lovely powder day at Buttermilk----it was uncrowded and the trees were untracked and it was a blast.

 

[dloveski]

They have been wrangling speeders for many years. I wish they were more mobile. It is great to have them at pinch points and slow zones but I wish they would appear in random places too.

spy cams ;-}

 

[contesstant]

They have been wrangling speeders for many years. I wish they were more mobile. It is great to have them at pinch points and slow zones but I wish they would appear in random places too.

And I'm sure they know where there are other trouble spots that aren't as obvious.

 

[elemmac]

Anyway, I'm still pondering how an organized effort to push for enhanced safety enforcement could be implemented. Very open to ideas!

Food for thought...not necessarily a specific idea for enhanced safety, but maybe this information will spark some ideas...

In my line of work, along with any OSHA regulated workplace, we use the "Hierarchy of Controls" to remove/reduce a hazard (1 being most effective, 5 being least):
1) Elimination (eliminate the hazard)
2) Substitution (substitute the hazard for something less hazardous)
3) Engineering Controls (mitigate the exposure of the hazard with physical isolation from it)
4) Administrative Controls (change the behavior of people to mitigate the hazard)
5) Personal Protective Equipment (protect yourself from the hazard)

In the case being discussed...our hazard is excess speed and skiers that ski above their skillset, especially in weekend crowds (this could also be treated as three different hazards...speed, skillset, and crowds).

Elimination - Don't ski. I don't like that option :(
Substitution - Switch to skiing mid-week only, backcountry skiing, cross-country or fat biking.
Engineering Controls - Some resorts have implemented fencing "gates" above lift loading zones, and in slow zones...as annoying as some of these are, they do work. Maybe additional fencing or other means to control the speed of skiers through those specific areas would be effective.
Administrative Controls - This is where speed policing, limiting days tickets/season passes, taking a test to get on the slopes, mandatory lesson, etc. comes into play.
PPE - Start wearing full contact hockey gear skiing...that would suck.

 

[elemmac]

They have been wrangling speeders for many years. I wish they were more mobile. It is great to have them at pinch points and slow zones but I wish they would appear in random places too.

Curious on how this works...Do they actually chase people down, if they speed past them? Call down to someone lower on the mountain to stop them? Throw a lasso out? How do they "wrangle" the perpetrators?

 

[SnowHot]

They have been wrangling speeders for many years. I wish they were more mobile. It is great to have them at pinch points and slow zones but I wish they would appear in random places too.

I'm not sure how the wranglers are trained, but some of the counterparts at other resorts are a bit clueless as to what they should be looking for.
Example; we were skiing with a trainer/examiner level instructor one day and witnessed some out of control skiers who were decent but not super skilled.
Our instructor friend was demonstrating a slow speed, high edge angle turn. He was warned by the yellow jacket that he was obviously going to fast and out of control because of his high edge angles. Meanwhile others straightlining by weren't addressed.

High edge angles? Really? That's the focus?

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Curious on how this works...Do they actually chase people down, if they speed past them? Call down to someone lower on the mountain to stop them? Throw a lasso out? How do they "wrangle" the perpetrators?

Typically they will have two or more people posted far enough apart that they can radio down and have the person at the bottom stop the perpetrator. I saw it first hand when I was in training not in the ski school outfit but it was a ski school training experience. My own supervisor who was one of the participants and the last person down got tagged for going too fast when the guy was actually just trying to keep up with us. It is indeed an arbitrary process. He is a better skier than half the people that were in the group and was skiing the exact same speed and very much in control as he usually leads clinics. I don't know what the answer is. I pass people all the time and I'm being passed all the time. I think that they're presents is what actually slows people down so they rarely end up having to issue actual warnings or pass removals. But they have and they will. I know for instructors we have been told that if we get issued a temporary pass removal for skiing too fast while not working and not in uniform. We will not be allowed to teach until that time period has elapsed. They will try to find us indoor work until we are allowed back on the slopes.

 

[SnowHot]

Engineering Controls - Some resorts have implemented fencing "gates" above lift loading zones, and in slow zones...as annoying as some of these are, they do work. Maybe additional fencing or other means to control the speed of skiers through those specific areas would be effective.

I have found dolphin netting to be quite affective. Not sure why more resorts don't do that.

 

[elemmac]

I have found dolphin netting to be quite affective.

I've never heard it called that! I love it hahaha.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Curious on how this works...Do they actually chase people down, if they speed past them? Call down to someone lower on the mountain to stop them? Throw a lasso out? How do they "wrangle" the perpetrators?

Typically they will have two or more people posted far enough apart that they can radio down and have the person at the bottom stop the perpetrator. I saw it first hand when I was in training not in the ski school outfit but it was a ski school training experience. My own supervisor who was one of the participants and the last person down got tagged for going too fast when the guy was actually just trying to keep up with us. It is indeed an arbitrary process. He is a better skier than half the people that were in the group and was skiing the exact same speed and very much in control as he usually leads clinics. I don't know what the answer is. I pass people all the time and I'm being passed all the time. I think that their presence is what actually slows people down so they rarely end up having to issue actual warnings or pass removals. But they have and they will. I know for instructors we have been told that if we get issued a temporary pass removal for skiing too fast while not working and not in uniform. We will not be allowed to teach until that time period has elapsed. They will try to find us indoor work until we are allowed back on the