"How Vail Destroyed Skiing"

[NWSkiGirl]

I know it's a well worn topic, but I watched this today and I think it gives a nice perspective on the Vail/Alterra takeover:

I was also thinking about Patagonia and The North Face, and many other companies in the industry that value the sport and the planet. Vail and Alterra are not among them, as this video points out, and therefore I don't think they are ever going to be a good fit.

Though I've always been happy that skiing is surviving. I can imagine it could have gone in a different direction since there's less snow due to climate change. I'm glad skiing isn't dying out.

 

[Ms Mia]

Thanks for sharing. I've seen this link pop up in my You Tube feed but hadn't watched it till now. I'm Canada based, and still familiarising myself with the bigger picture, but I had no idea of this duopoly in the US. This is a really good take on why it matters. Especially, as you point out, with climate change affecting the length of the seasons - but also, look at the impact of having such overcrowded mountains! Here's to independent ski areas. (Though I appreciate that geography means many skiers don't have much of a choice as to where they can ski)

 

[marzNC]

Per usual, every video or article has a point of view. For people who travel outside their home region and think the only places to ski are destination resorts on Ikon/MCP/Epic are missing out on other mountains with much to offer. Including some with over 1200 skiable acres, as well as high speed lifts, and lodging that doesn't require a car. There are about 500 ski areas in the USA. Granted most are relatively small, but many are worth consideration for people who don't live in ski country.

I had no idea of this duopoly in the US

At this point, Epic and Ikon are not limited to the USA. For Australia, Epic resorts dominate the relatively small ski industry there. Both Vail Resorts and Alterra have added resorts in Europe in recent years.

The evolution of the ski industry in N. America has had more than one period where one multi-resort company became dominant. For example, Intrawest once owned Whistler-Blackcomb. It created several other ski resorts, including Snowshoe in West Virgina. Snowshoe is the largest resort in the southeast region. The core for the creation of Alterra was the purchase of resorts owned by Intrawest when that real estate company decided it was time to get out of the ski business.

In addition to Alterra and Vail Resorts, the other multi-resort companies currently operating destination resorts in the USA are Boyne Resorts (Big Sky, Sunday River), Powdr (Snowbird), Mountain Capital Partners (southwestern USA), PGRI (Jay Peak). Mountain Capital is relatively new. The other multi-resort companies have been around in one form or another for a few decades.

Note that Alterra partners with other multi-resort companies for Ikon. Vail Resorts and Alterra have very different business models when it comes to how operations are managed for a given resort.

For those interested, the books by Chris Diamond after he spent decades working at more than one destination resort are worth reading: Ski Inc., Ski Inc. 2000.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Per usual, every video or article has a point of view. For people who travel outside their home region and think the only places to ski are destination resorts on Ikon/MCP/Epic are missing out on other mountains with much to offer. Including some with over 1200 skiable acres, as well as high speed lifts, and lodging that doesn't require a car. There are about 500 ski areas in the USA. Granted most are relatively small, but many are worth consideration for people who don't live in ski country.


At this point, Epic and Ikon are not limited to the USA. For Australia, Epic resorts dominate the relatively small ski industry there. Both Vail Resorts and Alterra have added resorts in Europe in recent years.

The evolution of the ski industry in N. America has had more than one period where one multi-resort company became dominant. For example, Intrawest once owned Whistler-Blackcomb. It created several other ski resorts, including Snowshoe in West Virgina. Snowshoe is the largest resort in the southeast region. The core for the creation of Alterra was the purchase of resorts owned by Intrawest when that real estate company decided it was time to get out of the ski business.

In addition to Alterra and Vail Resorts, the other multi-resort companies currently operating destination resorts in the USA are Boyne Resorts (Big Sky, Sunday River), Powdr (Snowbird), Mountain Capital Partners (southwestern USA), PGRI (Jay Peak). Mountain Capital is relatively new. The other multi-resort companies have been around in one form or another for a few decades.

Note that Alterra partners with other multi-resort companies for Ikon. Vail Resorts and Alterra have very different business models when it comes to how operations are managed for a given resort.

For those interested, the books by Chris Diamond after he spent decades working at more than one destination resort are worth reading: Ski Inc., Ski Inc. 2000.

Yes, I saw they only own 1/2 the ski resorts. Though many of the well known ones.

I'm glad skiing is surviving, and as you said things can and do change. If people are unhappy and it's not working, things won't stay the same forever.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Thanks for sharing. I've seen this link pop up in my You Tube feed but hadn't watched it till now. I'm Canada based, and still familiarising myself with the bigger picture, but I had no idea of this duopoly in the US. This is a really good take on why it matters. Especially, as you point out, with climate change affecting the length of the seasons - but also, look at the impact of having such overcrowded mountains! Here's to independent ski areas. (Though I appreciate that geography means many skiers don't have much of a choice as to where they can ski)

Agree - here's to independent ski areas!

 

[snoWYmonkey]

Some very interesting points are brought up in the video. One of them being the monopolization within a community by the resort. This happens with independent resorts as well. I love the concept of community owned and operated ski resorts. They tend to be the place that truly exists to serve a need. Often that need is local or regional. Lift ticket and season pass and group resort past pricing are a very small piece of the puzzle when it comes to destination resort expenses. What I definitely agree with in the video is that the resorts can choose how they implement their pass and capacity numbers. I have seen how independent resorts that participate in the ikon pass can require advance reservations in order to utilize a limited number of days on that pass. This concept guarantees very short lift lines and a good deal for the skier. Unfortunately, the deal ends there. Lodging in geographically isolated resort towns is so expensive but it negates any real savings from a multi resort pass even at an independent resort. With the exception of the community focused small resorts even the larger independent resorts tend to have only a single focus, which is revenue. The patroller mentions how an event was next because it was too expensive to operate. This is not unique to the mega ski Corps. The effects on the community are just as bad. My point with my comments is not to support the duopoly and their takeovers but rather to point out that most destination resorts, even the independent ones, are having a huge effect on the communities that they depend on for success when greed becomes the focus.

 

[marzNC]

Yes, I saw they only own 1/2 the ski resorts. Though many of the well known ones.

Does the video say that half of the ski resorts in the USA are "owned" by either Vail Resorts or Alterra? If so, that's incorrect. Alterra owns 16 resorts. As far as I can tell from the Epic website, Vail Resorts owns 34 resorts. That includes the small resorts in PA and the midwest. Even including the resorts owned by other multi-resort companies, that does not add up to around 250 American resorts.

The only "partner" resort for Epic is Telluride, which is independently owned/operated. For a few years, Sun Valley and Snowbasin were Epic Partners. Those two resorts share ownership. SV and Snowbasin are on Ikon and the Mountain Collective Pass for 2025-26.

Note that Ikon includes iconic independent resorts such as Alta or Jackson Hole, as well as major destination resorts owned/operated by Boyne (Big Sky) and Powdr (Snowbird, Copper). That a big reason that the percentage of skier visits that involve Ikon or Epic is very high.

 

[snoWYmonkey]

@marzNC It would be interesting to compare revenue for the duopoly with the remaining 90 per cent or so of resorts. I would not be surprised if the revenue is close to half of the all resorts. I would also love to see the data for the larger of the independent resorts. I suspect they monopolize vacation rental management and ski shops and airport decisions, etc.

 

[marzNC]

@marzNC It would be interesting to compare revenue for the duopoly with the remaining 90 per cent or so of resorts. I would not be surprised if the revenue is close to half of the all resorts. I would also love to see the data for the larger of the independent resorts. I suspect they monopolize vacation rental management and ski shops and airport decisions, etc.

Which independents do you consider as larger? Are you thinking only of resorts in the Rockies or other big mountains in the west?

The more I learn about operations, maintenance, and upgrades at ski resorts, the more I appreciate how unique each situation is for making longer term business and management decisions.

What's changed in the west since about 2015 is the evolution of ski resorts into 4-season resorts. The change in the law that allowed the U.S. Forest Service to approve plans for revenue generating activities such as ziplines or alpine slides during the summer happened in 2011. Very different situation from other regions where ski resorts were 4-season resorts from start, meaning over 50 years ago.

 

[AJM]

Thank goodness they havent reached NZ yet

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Does the video say that half of the ski resorts in the USA are "owned" by either Vail Resorts or Alterra? If so, that's incorrect. Alterra owns 16 resorts. As far as I can tell from the Epic website, Vail Resorts owns 34 resorts. That includes the small resorts in PA and the midwest. Even including the resorts owned by other multi-resort companies, that does not add up to around 250 American resorts.

The only "partner" resort for Epic is Telluride, which is independently owned/operated. For a few years, Sun Valley and Snowbasin were Epic Partners. Those two resorts share ownership. SV and Snowbasin are on Ikon and the Mountain Collective Pass for 2025-26.

Note that Ikon includes iconic independent resorts such as Alta or Jackson Hole, as well as major destination resorts owned/operated by Boyne (Big Sky) and Powdr (Snowbird, Copper). That a big reason that the percentage of skier visits that involve Ikon or Epic is very high.

I thought it said 50%... I'd have to go back to check!

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Does the video say that half of the ski resorts in the USA are "owned" by either Vail Resorts or Alterra? If so, that's incorrect. Alterra owns 16 resorts. As far as I can tell from the Epic website, Vail Resorts owns 34 resorts. That includes the small resorts in PA and the midwest. Even including the resorts owned by other multi-resort companies, that does not add up to around 250 American resorts.

The only "partner" resort for Epic is Telluride, which is independently owned/operated. For a few years, Sun Valley and Snowbasin were Epic Partners. Those two resorts share ownership. SV and Snowbasin are on Ikon and the Mountain Collective Pass for 2025-26.

Note that Ikon includes iconic independent resorts such as Alta or Jackson Hole, as well as major destination resorts owned/operated by Boyne (Big Sky) and Powdr (Snowbird, Copper). That a big reason that the percentage of skier visits that involve Ikon or Epic is very high.

It says they "own over 50 major ski resorts" and "have control of over half of the entire US ski market"...

 

[marzNC]

It says they "own over 50 major ski resorts" and "have control of over half of the entire US ski market"...

Wonder whether "half" is based on skier visits. I doubt it's based on revenue because while it's easy to know revenue for Vail Resorts as a public company, that's not the case for Alterra financial data because it's privately held.

National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) is the usual source for ski industry statistics for the USA. While NSAA data is useful to see trends in the last 40+ years, I always keep in mind that the statistics are unlikely to be a random representation for assorted reasons. Membership in NSAA is not automatic and there is a fee to join that is based on gross revenue, with a minimum of $200 annually. The press releases about NSAA annual reports that summarize skier visits and other statistics do not detail data collection methods.

Epic came to be in 2008 when Vail Resorts only owned resorts in Colorado. The Mountain Collective Pass that only provides 2 days at each location started in 2012-13, partially as a reaction by independent destination resorts to the Epic pass. Most, but not all of the MCP resorts, were also on Ikon as of 2024-25. The first season for Ikon was 2018-19 with resorts own by Alterra and Partners that were part of multi-resort companies or independent. Every multi-resort pass and company continues to evolve.

The issues in the last decade or two stemming from how Vail Resorts operates and chooses to use Epic passes are real. However, I think Alterra resorts and the impact of Ikon should be considered separately.

 

[NWSkiGirl]

Wonder whether "half" is based on skier visits. I doubt it's based on revenue because while it's easy to know revenue for Vail Resorts as a public company, that's not the case for Alterra financial data because it's privately held.

National Ski Areas Association (NSAA) is the usual source for ski industry statistics for the USA. While NSAA data is useful to see trends in the last 40+ years, I always keep in mind that the statistics are unlikely to be a random representation for assorted reasons. Membership in NSAA is not automatic and there is a fee to join that is based on gross revenue, with a minimum of $200 annually. The press releases about NSAA annual reports that summarize skier visits and other statistics do not detail data collection methods.

Epic came to be in 2008 when Vail Resorts only owned resorts in Colorado. The Mountain Collective Pass that only provides 2 days at each location started in 2012-13, partially as a reaction by independent destination resorts to the Epic pass. Most, but not all of the MCP resorts, were also on Ikon as of 2024-25. The first season for Ikon was 2018-19 with resorts own by Alterra and Partners that were part of multi-resort companies or independent. Every multi-resort pass and company continues to evolve.

The issues in the last decade or two stemming from how Vail Resorts operates and chooses to use Epic passes are real. However, I think Alterra resorts and the impact of Ikon should be considered separately.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that this info starts at 4 minutes in the video!

One thing Alterra did at my home mountain was aggressive radio advertising while messaging to skiers that all the undesirable changes were due to overcrowding. I'm sure there are a lot of differences between Vail and Alterra!