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How to become one of those graceful but athletic skiers cruising down steeper runs?

newboots

Angel Diva
@skiPTcynthia is named Cynthia Lazzara, and I'm afraid she is not @liquidfeet. However, our @liquidfeet is an amazing resource. She is an experienced instructor who has a brain very different from mine. She revels in the fine details, drills, and working on technique to the point of an insane obsession. She skis in New Hampshire. I am a very big fan, even though I'll never have the patience for all those details that she does.

Cynthia is both a ski instructor and a PT, and as you have discovered, is another valuable resource. She pops in here now and then, but is not a regular (unless I've missed something). She skis at Okemo, at least she did before Covid. I think she might be in Connecticut the rest of the year. I met her last year when she was in a ski shop where I worked briefly, and she was shopping for a new jacket to wear in the videos!
 

Iwannaski

Angel Diva
Just working through the drills tonight, I realized what one of my issues yesterday was. And now I also understand the challenge with unlearning the snowplow when going to parallel turns. Really interesting. Two AWESOME analytical resources? AMAZING. So glad I stumbled upon this forum and site... Thank you also to @ski diva for getting it going!
 

Pequenita

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I haven’t read through the entire thread, so apologies if the instructors have already given more detailed answers, but the keys for me are to always be turning (that is, on an edge) and starting my next turn earlier than I think. An earlier turn has really helped the finish of my turns to be more controlled and less of a panicked brake.
ETA....just realized this thread is a year old...
 
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Tvan

Angel Diva
+1 for Cynthia’s SkiPT videos. She was my instructor at the Okemo WAA program a couple years ago and she’s awesome.

Threads like these are always interesting to read, and I’m so appreciative of the divas who share ideas and instruction so generously.
 

yogiskier

Angel Diva
Yes, I'm still grateful for all of the suggestions! I was the OP literally a year ago, and I'm re-reading and re-watching the suggested videos to remember all of these important things. Every year I think that I've learned the concepts, but apparently my body and mind forget them in the off-season and without a refresher I tackle the mountain with my same old mistakes :wink:
I think it's about time I take a lesson/clinic, too! It's been 3 years since my last one.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@yogiskier I laugh in genuine delight when I reread some of the suggestions I have received from my coaches over the years (full time instructor for the past 20 years), with a few exceptions, not to many of the pointers have changed, yet my colleagues claim I have changed my skiing. I think it is often a matter of continuing to refine while developing versatility, and not loosing what improvements we have made. The key takeaway for me is to keep enjoying the constant loop back to where I was going in the first place. Thank you for your OP!
 

BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Most people get in the backseat and do some version of hockey stops, which causes out of control skidding at the end of each turn (on hard snow here in the east).
For every turn, you will slow down to a crawl if your skis turn slowly to take you across the hill.
I am just rereading this helpful advice, and this lead me to another question. What if there is no room on the run to really finish the turn? This weekend I did a black run that had icy patches on one side and moguls on the other. In between them there was a narrow corridor with some snow, and that’s the path I chose to take. Making wider turns meant either ending up on ice or in moguls, so I was doing shorter turns to stay in the narrow corridor. How does the advice above work in this situation?
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I am just rereading this helpful advice, and this lead me to another question. What if there is no room on the run to really finish the turn? This weekend I did a black run that had icy patches on one side and moguls on the other. In between them there was a narrow corridor with some snow, and that’s the path I chose to take. Making wider turns meant either ending up on ice or in moguls, so I was doing shorter turns to stay in the narrow corridor. How does the advice above work in this situation?
On such advanced/expert terrain as you describe, you need the advanced/expert skill of making very short radius turns within that narrow corridor. It's an expert skill to keep grip while making those super short turns. If the skier is even slightly aft, the skis won't grip. If the skier doesn't get the skis gripping before they point downhill, they will skid out. If the skier has too much weight on the inside ski, the skis will skid out.

Manually turning the skis to make a turn shorter than the skis want to make, a super short radius turn, and keeping them gripping as you do that, when the snow is not hero snow, is a skill that separates experts from advanced skiers.

To bypass the issue of skill development and stay in control on that narrow lane of ice, try stem-step turns. Pick up the new outside ski (at that point the uphill ski), set it down on edge to make a wedge, then stand on it. Pick up the new inside ski to get it out of the way. That new outside ski should take you around to a stop if you balance on it properly. In other words, the pivot you have to make to get such short radius turns is in the air, so it doesn't dislodge the new outside ski's grip. Repeat for the other direction.

One can go straight downhill in a very narrow corridor doing this, coming to a complete stop with each turn doing stem-step turns. Don't get aft on that lifted and pivoted ski; set it down a bit back so your weight will be forward on it, pick up the new inside ski slightly to get it out of the way and to be sure your weight is on the other ski, and around you'll go to a stop. Practice stem-steps ahead of time on groomers to learn how to stay in a corridor as wide as a log; in other words, doing no left-right travel.

Stem-steps will be difficult if your skis are wide, and easier if your skis are narrow.

Another option: simply side-slip, and do falling-leaf to keep yourself in the lane. Side-slips and falling-leafs are intermediate skills. Novices need to start learning these since they can save one when over-terrained.

Another option: do pivot-slips all the way down. Pivot slips are an advanced skill that take time to learn. They will give you no extra control over side-slips, but they look better if there's a chair beside the trail. But then if one can do pivot-slips, the bumps may be the more fun option.

Speaking of which, if you can do the stem-steps in the narrow corridor, you can try them in the bumps next time. That's a way of getting down bumps that are too difficult for one's current bump skill level.

@snoWYmonkey may have good advice that is different from mine.
 
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snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@liquidfeet and @BMR I like the direction that this is all going, and agree that there a few different solutions to most challenges depending on snow conditions and pre-existing skill levels.

Personally, I never hop turn. Have only had to use one once on my home mountain.



I am a huge fan of the pivot slip, and stem step turns are a nice stable platform option too, one that an extreme ski mountaineering woman coach I teach with uses at times, so zero shame in using it when necessary. Liquidfeet gives a great description of the stem option.

My only addition to BMR's comment is that a turn can be finished no matter the diameter. In other words I do not have to make a wide turn to really finish it, or as I like to say, make a C shape in the snow. Even on a pivot slip turn, which is the ultimate short radius, the key is to finish, as in making sure that the skis end up truly perpendicular to the slope at the end. The shorter turns are the slowest turns, which is what we need on steep terrain.

I think of a flatter ski, less edge angle, as the key decreasing speed on steeps, in combination with finishing the turn as a way to slow down. The friction of a side slip slows me down, the high edge in a turn while moving forward across a hill does not slow me down as much. Think of it as the slowing down phase of a hockey stop before you set the final edge. We have to slow down before stopping. A pivot slip is a skidded, side slippy, low edge angle maneuver that helps us not accelerate too much as a result of both friction, and direction.

Practicing very short radius turns on a zero consequence run is key to pulling it off where the challenge becomes real. Pivot slips to short radius and back to pivot slips on a long steep open run is a great drill.

If it is dire, I often break down the threat (scary, narrow, long run) into one or two turns at a time. Granted, the first turn is hardest, and this is a series of first turns, but just knowing that I don't have to ski the whole thing in one go, can be enough to allow me to actually do the opposite and ski the whole thing more relaxed.
 

BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thank you @liquidfeet and @snoWYmonkey for the thoughtful responses.

One follow up question to this:
a turn can be finished no matter the diameter. In other words I do not have to make a wide turn to really finish it, or as I like to say, make a C shape in the snow. Even on a pivot slip turn, which is the ultimate short radius, the key is to finish, as in making sure that the skis end up truly perpendicular to the slope at the end.
I find that once the skis are truly perpendicular to the fall line, you still have to traverse some distance in order to scrub off speed, and potentially in combination with some skid, no? In the short radius turns, you don't do that by definition, so therefore you essentially just have to keep turning? When I experimented with this on the steep I described above I found I had to either keep turning or skid/side slip. And since the slope was not truly narrow, just icy and bumpy and therefore my narrow path was by choice, I did not have to resort to stem step turns (although I am not sure I even know how to do them... gotta try next weekend).
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
If I were in control of all skis chools, I'd make sure every ins
Thank you @liquidfeet and @snoWYmonkey for the thoughtful responses.

One follow up question to this:

I find that once the skis are truly perpendicular to the fall line, you still have to traverse some distance in order to scrub off speed, and potentially in combination with some skid, no? .
You do not have to traverse to coast to a stop. Well, you don't if you turn your skis to point a bit uphill. That alone will stop you. Another way of looking at that is to point your tails downhill. Same thing, whatever works for you.

Should you expect some slippage going on to scrub speed? Sure. You want to go slow, right? Let the scrubbing happen. Friction is your friend. A runaway traverse is not. The runaway traverse happens if the skis are too edged to slip downhill. That might happen because your body is leaning uphill out of caution. Work on not leaning uphill when fear grabs you. It puts you in danger of making that runaway traverse.

So keep the skis flat enough to lose altitude, to enable you to rotate them, and keep them rotating until they point enough uphill to come to a stop. Work on the timing where it's not critical if you fail.
 

BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Should you expect some slippage going on to scrub speed? Sure. You want to go slow, right? Let the scrubbing happen. Friction is your friend. A runaway traverse is not.
Ok, perfect, that makes sense. I think I am doing better at that, but gotta just keep practicing over and over and with increasing pitch.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Traversing should not, in an ideal situation, ever be necessary. Steering a touch more uphill can work, but may not always be an option if there is a big mogul or tree, in which case the side slip finish, or more skidded, friction based turn will be what helps you reduce your speed. A steered finished skidded turn with lower edge angle will be a good combo. I teach the almost turning uphill approach, but prefer the skidded turn approach for the terrain that we tend to ski a lot of in Jackson Hole. If I were carving turns, then the only option is more steering, aka finishing the turn more by going uphill. Carving on double blacks is not a viable option for most mortals like me, so I add a lot of skid, the early in the turn the better. I imagine that I am spraying snow uphill and to the sides as early as possible in the turn as that spreads out the skid, rather than slamming on the breaks all at the end...too much build up of pressure.
 

BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Carving on double blacks is not a viable option for most mortals like me, so I add a lot of skid, the early in the turn the better.
Haha, nor me!
Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. I think I take the "C" shape a bit too literally, as in just like it looks, with the skis going up the hill at the end of a turn, which I can never quite make happen while keeping the zipper down the fall line. Doing an S shape is a better depiction of what actually happens.
 

snoWYmonkey

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Haha, nor me!
Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. I think I take the "C" shape a bit too literally, as in just like it looks, with the skis going up the hill at the end of a turn, which I can never quite make happen while keeping the zipper down the fall line. Doing an S shape is a better depiction of what actually happens.
I would still strive for the perpendicular finish though. The S finish usually is better in speedier situations if that makes sense?
 

Elena_Ski

Certified Ski Diva
Amazing advice, thank you so much ladies! I'm trying to move away from z-shaped skidded turns towards making nice and round edged turns and have already learned a lot from reading this discussion. Any more tips, please share!
 

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