How steep is steep?

[ski diva]

Meteorologist Joel Gratz breaks it down:

 

[snow addict]

I laugh when I read people taking about 50 degree slopes ))) Unless they confuse degrees with per cent. Ski apps some times show some crazy angles, but what they usually register is some entry point which can be as steep as 45 degrees sometimes but won't sustain for longer than a turn.

 

[Tvan]

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

 

[pinto]

@theBuff under Wildcat at Alta a few seasons ago. I remember when taking this, had she extended her arm, she would have been close to touching the slope. Not all the way there, but it was pretty steep.

 

[Liquid Yellow]

The steepest thing I ever skied was 78% (about 38 degrees), and that was TERRIFYING. It was like looking down a wall, but on paper 38 degrees doesn't sound very steep at all.

I was too scared to ski it properly and ended up gracefully sliding down it on my face

 

[bounceswoosh]

It was like looking down a wall, but on paper 38 degrees doesn't sound very steep at all.

Yeah, you would think five degrees couldn't be that much of a difference - but it's night and day.

 

[marzNC]

One of the most interesting aspects of going to Aspen Highlands for the first time last March was discovering that the slope angles of some of the trails in the Highland Bowl are listed on the trail map. Mostly high 30s to mid-40s as I remember. That got me paying more attention to the numbers so I could compare places I've skied with the Bowl. Bought the book that was published a while back that includes slope angles for Alta. Since I started to ski steeper trails off Wildcat last April, I know the Bowl trails are well within my range since they are wide open. Still have no interest in steep, narrow chutes.

Would love to know a few slope angles for the wide open bowls at Big Sky.

 

[marzNC]

Hah! Google can find all sorts of stuff. According to SkiStats, here are a few slope angles. First time I've found that list. There are 83 slopes listed for various places in N. America.

Big Sky: Lenin 48º
Big Sky: Big Couloir 50º
Alta: High Rustler 44º , for about 6 turns at the top
Alta: Rustler 40º
Alta: Greely 35º
JH: Hobacks 40º
JH: North Hoback 36º, average for 2500 vertical feet

 

[marzNC]

Also came across an article from 2001 in Skiing Magazine with the same title as this thread. Says this about Aspen Highlands. I saw an Extreme Guide at the Highlands Guest Services desk but they don't print it any more.

"To help cover some of these contingencies, the ski patrol at Aspen Highlands has put out an award-winning "Extreme Guide" trail map to some of the ski area's most difficult terrain. It lists the steepest pitch, average pitch and aspect (the direction the slope faces), for each of more than 50 expert routes. Among the sheerest are B-Cliffs in the Steeplechase area, with an average pitch of 46 degrees, and Go-Go Gully in Highland Bowl, with an average of 42 degrees-but with one section that tilts in at a full 48.

Not everyone, however, fully embraces empirical data. They worry about where and when measurements are taken. Readings at Aspen Highlands are done in summer and Kevin Heineken, Highland Bowl patrol director, says some areas may be steeper in winter due to cornicing, while others may be blown in and a little gentler."

 

[marzNC]

Found a blog entry on Gondyline that uses basic geometry calculations based on Google Earth data to provide some interesting examples for thinking about steepness. What's fun for someone who skis in the Mid-Atlantic is to see the steep, but short, sections and how they match up with well know steep sections on trails at big mountains. Several examples from PA and NY.

Massanutten's MakAttack comes out 19º for the short list with 500' minimum length, 209' vert, about 600' of skiing. MakAttack is not groomed once the base is established, unless it's to seed bumps. The headwall of Shay's Revenge on the Western Terroritories of Snowshoe is 23º, 455' vert, about 1200' of skiing. The lower half of Sawtooth at Copper in CO is 22.5º, 588' vert, 1535' length.

Al's Run at Taos comes out 31.4º but that's for essentially all of the 1481' vert and 2841' in length. My understanding that it ends up all bumps pretty early in the season.

 

[bounceswoosh]

Big Sky: Lenin 48º

I skied Lenin. Not a chance it was 48*.

 

[marzNC]

I skied Lenin. Not a chance it was 48*.

Do you think Lenin is like High Rustler and there is a short steep section that is 48º? Makes sense to me that Lenin isn't that steep based on looking at the Big Couloir from the tram. As with any list on the Internet, hard to know exactly where the data comes from. So far I've only skied Liberty off the Big Sky tram.

Does make sense to me that Greely and North Hobacks are about the same steepness, with Rustler being a bit steeper. Haven't skied High Rustler yet because I haven't wanted to deal with the entrance in late season low snow conditions. Plus I'd rather wait until I know I can enjoy skiing it, not just get down without falling.

 

[ski diva]

Interesting comparisons from Gondyline:

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST. It's just a comparison of some popular trails that we're able to make pretty good measurements on. That's all it is.

Angle in Degrees of Select Ski Trail Sections
Minimum section length 2000'
Ski Area, Trail Name, Angle (Degrees), Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length, Notes
Arapahoe Basin, CO Pallavicini 32° 2152' 1113' virtually entire length
Taos, NM Al's Run 31.4° 2841' 1481' virtually entire length
Stowe, VT Lookout 29.6° 2148' 1062' entire upper section
Sugarloaf USA, ME Gondy Line 29.6° 2027' 1001' Snowfield & entire upper section
Killington, VT Outer Limits 29.5° 2241.5' 1105' virtually entire length
Sun Valley, ID Limelight 29.2° 2607' 1273' upper & middle section
Jay Peak, VT Can Am 25.7° 2006' 870' avg of upper & middle section
Plattekill, NY Freefall 21.7° 2144' 791' virtually entire length
Minimum section length 1000'

Ski Area, Trail Name, Angle (Degrees), Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length, Notes
Crested Butte, CO Banana Chute 39.5° 1723' 1096' avg overall; 1st 1k is 40.9°
Squaw Valley, CA KT-22 38.3° 1367' 847' 75 Chute
Alta, UT Alf's High Rustler 36.5° 1606' 955' top to cat track
Smugglers Notch, VT Black Hole 35° 1013' 586' virtually entire length
Cannon, NH DJ's Tramline 34.1° 1035' 581' below Middle Cannon
Hunter Mt, NY Westway 34° 1307' 738' 2/3 of length
Sun Valley, ID Exhibition 32.5° 1279' 688' from dogleg left turn to bottom
Whiteface, NY The Slides 32° 1441' 758' Slide 1
Killington, VT Double Dipper 31° 1207' 625' from drop off point to bottom
Snowbird, UT Mach Shnell 29° 1404' 671' from drop off point to bottom
Whiteface, NY Upper Northway 28° 1035' 483' main pitch
Sunday River, ME White Heat 27° 1635' 742' snowfield section
Jay Peak, VT Haynes 27° 1319' 602' upper section
Whiteface, NY Mountain Run 26° 1384' 620' the steep part
Whiteface, NY Upper Skyward 26° 1708' 737' Approx. 1/2 of trail
Beaver Creek, CO Ripsaw 26° 1169' 519' most of trail
Gore, NY The Rumor 25° 1335' 566' entire route
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 24.4° 1108' 458' Pete's Arena
Beaver Creek, CO Cataract 23.7° 1079' 434' most of trail
Snowshoe, WV Shay's Revenge 23° 1172' 455' headwall
Copper, CO Sawtooth 22.5° 1535' 588' lower half
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 20.4° 1213' 423' Golden Eagle & Abyss
Sundown, CT Gunbarrel 19° 1014' 332' upper 3/4 of trail
Seven Springs, PA Avalanche 18.8° 1098' 353' most of trail
Minimum section length 500'

Ski Area Trail Name Angle(Degrees) Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length Notes
Squaw Valley, CA KT-22 43° 790' 540' Johnny Moseley's Run
Squaw Valley, CA KT-22 42° 709' 475' GS Bowl
Arapahoe Basin, CO Pallavicini 40° 706' 453' Pally Face
Stowe, VT Upper Starr 38.7° 512' 320' headwall from top
Alta, UT Alf's High Rustler 38° 795' 491' Upper half
Jay Peak, VT Can Am 32° 740' 390' top section only
Cannon, NH Avalanche 31° 545' 281' Banshee Cut to Banshee section
Sugarloaf USA, ME Gondy Line Extension 31° 537' 275' snowfield section
Breckenridge, CO Mach One 30.8° 686' 351' from drop approx 150' down trail
Whiteface, NY Upper Skyward 30° 806' 406' topmost section
Blue Knob, PA Extrovert 29.9° 909' 453' top to dogleg right
Mountain Creek, NJ Pipeline 28.6° 607' 291' headwall to old Fitz' Folly trail
Vail, CO Riva Ridge 28.4° 517' 246' Tourist Trap headwall
Gore, NY The Rumor 28° 615' 284' top half
Whiteface, NY Cloudspin 26° 933' 414' from a bit below the top
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 26° 866' 383' The Flyway
Wengen, SWITZ Lauberhorn 22.6° 828' 318' Hanneggschuss
Seven Springs, PA Goosebumps 20.7° 634' 224' most of slope
Massanutten, VA Mak Attack 19.4° 628' 209' drop off to Showtime connection
Minimum section length 300'

Ski Area, Trail Name, Angle (Degrees), Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length, Notes
Jackson Hole, WY Corbet's Couloir 53° 350' 280' average of drop + chute
Jay Peak, VT Green Beret 38° 361' 223' headwall
Jay Peak, VT Face Chutes 37° 352' 212' with trees
Arapahoe Basin, CO Pallavicini 36° 465' 275' Pally Main Street
Jay Peak, VT Tuckerman's Chute 36° 400' 240' with trees
Mount Snow, VT Ripcord 35° 437' 235' headwall only
Montage, PA White Lightning 32° 400' 213' headwall only
Belleayre, NY Upper Yahoo 30° 300' 151' headwall only
Attitash, NH Middle Ptarmigan 26° 332' 145' section between cross trails
Blue Knob, PA Stembogen Bowl 22.7° 329' 127' skier's left into funnel
Seven Springs, PA North Face Slope 18° 327' 100' headwall

So what can we conclude from this? Would the 31° of Al's Run on Taos powder be more or less challenging than the 29° on Killington concrete? Would 100 yards of 53° packed powder on Corbet's Couloir be hairier than 100 yards of 35° blue ice on Ripcord? This table, as it continues to grow, is neither intended nor qualified to be the final arbiter in a discussion of trail difficulty...it is merely an additional point of reference.

While individual steep sections give the above trails their notoriety, there are other trails that are better known for the overall experience. These are the grand courses of downhill skiing: Trails or routes over one mile in length, universally known by name. Some are steep in sections; a few of those sections are listed above. With these trails it is more important to consider the length and vertical drop of the overall run. The slope angles may not appear impressive, but remember this is the average of the entire course -- in some spots it can be twice the number shown.

Average Angle in Degrees of Entire Courses
Minimum Length One Mile

Ski Area, Course Average Angle (Degrees), Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length, Notes
Aspen, CO Ruthie's Run 14.3° 5507' 1366' length of lift
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 16.8° 8606' 2484' regular mens downhill
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 18.4° 7002' 2215' mens downhill weather start
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 19° 6165' 2005' mens super G
Timberline Lodge, OR Palmer Snowfield 16.4° 5295' 1497' summer public lane
Wengen, SWITZ Lauberhorn 13.3° 14,698' 3373' regular mens downhill

 

[bounceswoosh]

Do you think Lenin is like High Rustler and there is a short steep section that is 48º? Makes sense to me that Lenin isn't that steep based on looking at the Big Couloir from the tram. As with any list on the Internet, hard to know exactly where the data comes from. So far I've only skied Liberty off the Big Sky tram.

Does make sense to me that Greely and North Hobacks are about the same steepness, with Rustler being a bit steeper. Haven't skied High Rustler yet because I haven't wanted to deal with the entrance in late season low snow conditions. Plus I'd rather wait until I know I can enjoy skiing it, not just get down without falling.

Good question. I haven't skied Aspen, so I can't speak to High Rustler, but I *think* I remember Lenin being a bit steeper up top, then mellowing. Maybe @Skisailor can refresh my memory? The whole short steep section thing is suspicious to me, because if we went by that then every bump run would be rated 70 degrees, right?

Lenin was definitely steeper than Liberty, but not shockingly so. As I recall. YMMV. Etc. I just feel like if it had been 48* I would have *noticed*, by which I mean freaked the hell out - because we were skiing something that to my tender Colorado sensibilities was pretty close to boilerplate. Boilerplate + steepest thing I've ever skied? I would have remembered that. @Ringrat was also skiing that same run at the same time ...

 

[Skisailor]

I skied Lenin. Not a chance it was 48*.

It's likely that the well known "rollover" at the top of Lenin - skiers right at the entry - is 48 degrees. But most skiers don't enter the trail that way. The rest of it is probably about 40 degrees.

 

[Skisailor]

Good question. I haven't skied Aspen, so I can't speak to High Rustler, but I *think* I remember Lenin being a bit steeper up top, then mellowing. Maybe @Skisailor can refresh my memory? The whole short steep section thing is suspicious to me, because if we went by that then every bump run would be rated 70 degrees, right?

Lenin was definitely steeper than Liberty, but not shockingly so. As I recall. YMMV. Etc. I just feel like if it had been 48* I would have *noticed*, by which I mean freaked the hell out - because we were skiing something that to my tender Colorado sensibilities was pretty close to boilerplate. Boilerplate + steepest thing I've ever skied? I would have remembered that. @Ringrat was also skiing that same run at the same time ...

Liberty Bowl, Lenin and Marx are know for being steep for a LONG way. Lenin is steeper than Marx which is steeper than Liberty. I've skied High Rustler and I don't think it's as steep as Lenin or Marx - but that's just based on memory and perception. I didn't use an inclinometer to check.

 

[bounceswoosh]

It's likely that the well known "rollover" at the top of Lenin - skiers right at the entry - is 48 degrees. But most skiers don't enter the trail that way. The rest of it is probably about 40 degrees.

Ah, yes. I do remember traversing a bit before heading in. Did I mention that boilerplate?

 

[marzNC]

Good question. I haven't skied Aspen, so I can't speak to High Rustler, but I *think* I remember Lenin being a bit steeper up top, then mellowing. Maybe @Skisailor can refresh my memory? The whole short steep section thing is suspicious to me, because if we went by that then every bump run would be rated 70 degrees, right?

Lenin was definitely steeper than Liberty, but not shockingly so. As I recall. YMMV. Etc. I just feel like if it had been 48* I would have *noticed*, by which I mean freaked the hell out - because we were skiing something that to my tender Colorado sensibilities was pretty close to boilerplate. Boilerplate + steepest thing I've ever skied? I would have remembered that. @Ringrat was also skiing that same run at the same time ...

High Rustler is the iconic trail facing the Wildcat base at Alta. Great view of it from the deck of Alta Lodge, so I know it well. Have been working my way down Lower Rustler to practice dealing with big bumps for years. Never really expected to get good enough to even consider skiing High Rustler. First time I ended up on the upper part of Rustler (not the top 1/3) was a couple seasons ago. I was on the Saddle Traverse looking for the run that I'd done with an instructor the day before. Another friend and I were also doing a bit of "follow Bill" that run . . . and it turned out Bill had in mind to go over to Rustler. It was cool to realize that skiing down was well within my capabilities.

As noted in the Gondyline blog article, slopes are not straight lines so any single measure of pitch can only give a general sense of the steepness of the entire run. The comparison is made to the "crux" of a rating for a rock climbing route. The rating of a route is based on the hardest point, while the rest of the route is not as difficult. And of course snow conditions makes a huge difference in actual difficulty for a given run.

 

[marzNC]

Liberty Bowl, Lenin and Marx are know for being steep for a LONG way. Lenin is steeper than Marx which is steeper than Liberty. I've skied High Rustler and I don't think it's as steep as Lenin or Marx - but that's just based on memory and perception. I didn't use an inclinometer to check.

The other difference is that High Rustler is relatively narrow compared to Liberty, Lenin, or Marx. Certainly all of Rustler is a lot shorter than any of the Lone Peak backside bowls.

I remember the Big Sky Mountain Host saying that one way to decide whether or not Liberty would be a reasonable choice was to go all the way around the bowl off the Lone Peak Triple. Meaning ski down the steepest part on the front side before going up the tram with skis with idea of skiing down Liberty. Always good to warm up somewhere that is steep, but relatively short.

 

[santacruz skier]

Interesting comparisons from Gondyline:

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST. It's just a comparison of some popular trails that we're able to make pretty good measurements on. That's all it is.

Angle in Degrees of Select Ski Trail Sections
Minimum section length 2000'
Ski Area, Trail Name, Angle (Degrees), Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length, Notes
Arapahoe Basin, CO Pallavicini 32° 2152' 1113' virtually entire length
Taos, NM Al's Run 31.4° 2841' 1481' virtually entire length
Stowe, VT Lookout 29.6° 2148' 1062' entire upper section
Sugarloaf USA, ME Gondy Line 29.6° 2027' 1001' Snowfield & entire upper section
Killington, VT Outer Limits 29.5° 2241.5' 1105' virtually entire length
Sun Valley, ID Limelight 29.2° 2607' 1273' upper & middle section
Jay Peak, VT Can Am 25.7° 2006' 870' avg of upper & middle section
Plattekill, NY Freefall 21.7° 2144' 791' virtually entire length
Minimum section length 1000'

Ski Area, Trail Name, Angle (Degrees), Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length, Notes
Crested Butte, CO Banana Chute 39.5° 1723' 1096' avg overall; 1st 1k is 40.9°
Squaw Valley, CA KT-22 38.3° 1367' 847' 75 Chute
Alta, UT Alf's High Rustler 36.5° 1606' 955' top to cat track
Smugglers Notch, VT Black Hole 35° 1013' 586' virtually entire length
Cannon, NH DJ's Tramline 34.1° 1035' 581' below Middle Cannon
Hunter Mt, NY Westway 34° 1307' 738' 2/3 of length
Sun Valley, ID Exhibition 32.5° 1279' 688' from dogleg left turn to bottom
Whiteface, NY The Slides 32° 1441' 758' Slide 1
Killington, VT Double Dipper 31° 1207' 625' from drop off point to bottom
Snowbird, UT Mach Shnell 29° 1404' 671' from drop off point to bottom
Whiteface, NY Upper Northway 28° 1035' 483' main pitch
Sunday River, ME White Heat 27° 1635' 742' snowfield section
Jay Peak, VT Haynes 27° 1319' 602' upper section
Whiteface, NY Mountain Run 26° 1384' 620' the steep part
Whiteface, NY Upper Skyward 26° 1708' 737' Approx. 1/2 of trail
Beaver Creek, CO Ripsaw 26° 1169' 519' most of trail
Gore, NY The Rumor 25° 1335' 566' entire route
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 24.4° 1108' 458' Pete's Arena
Beaver Creek, CO Cataract 23.7° 1079' 434' most of trail
Snowshoe, WV Shay's Revenge 23° 1172' 455' headwall
Copper, CO Sawtooth 22.5° 1535' 588' lower half
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 20.4° 1213' 423' Golden Eagle & Abyss
Sundown, CT Gunbarrel 19° 1014' 332' upper 3/4 of trail
Seven Springs, PA Avalanche 18.8° 1098' 353' most of trail
Minimum section length 500'

Ski Area Trail Name Angle(Degrees) Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length Notes
Squaw Valley, CA KT-22 43° 790' 540' Johnny Moseley's Run
Squaw Valley, CA KT-22 42° 709' 475' GS Bowl
Arapahoe Basin, CO Pallavicini 40° 706' 453' Pally Face
Stowe, VT Upper Starr 38.7° 512' 320' headwall from top
Alta, UT Alf's High Rustler 38° 795' 491' Upper half
Jay Peak, VT Can Am 32° 740' 390' top section only
Cannon, NH Avalanche 31° 545' 281' Banshee Cut to Banshee section
Sugarloaf USA, ME Gondy Line Extension 31° 537' 275' snowfield section
Breckenridge, CO Mach One 30.8° 686' 351' from drop approx 150' down trail
Whiteface, NY Upper Skyward 30° 806' 406' topmost section
Blue Knob, PA Extrovert 29.9° 909' 453' top to dogleg right
Mountain Creek, NJ Pipeline 28.6° 607' 291' headwall to old Fitz' Folly trail
Vail, CO Riva Ridge 28.4° 517' 246' Tourist Trap headwall
Gore, NY The Rumor 28° 615' 284' top half
Whiteface, NY Cloudspin 26° 933' 414' from a bit below the top
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 26° 866' 383' The Flyway
Wengen, SWITZ Lauberhorn 22.6° 828' 318' Hanneggschuss
Seven Springs, PA Goosebumps 20.7° 634' 224' most of slope
Massanutten, VA Mak Attack 19.4° 628' 209' drop off to Showtime connection
Minimum section length 300'

Ski Area, Trail Name, Angle (Degrees), Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length, Notes
Jackson Hole, WY Corbet's Couloir 53° 350' 280' average of drop + chute
Jay Peak, VT Green Beret 38° 361' 223' headwall
Jay Peak, VT Face Chutes 37° 352' 212' with trees
Arapahoe Basin, CO Pallavicini 36° 465' 275' Pally Main Street
Jay Peak, VT Tuckerman's Chute 36° 400' 240' with trees
Mount Snow, VT Ripcord 35° 437' 235' headwall only
Montage, PA White Lightning 32° 400' 213' headwall only
Belleayre, NY Upper Yahoo 30° 300' 151' headwall only
Attitash, NH Middle Ptarmigan 26° 332' 145' section between cross trails
Blue Knob, PA Stembogen Bowl 22.7° 329' 127' skier's left into funnel
Seven Springs, PA North Face Slope 18° 327' 100' headwall

So what can we conclude from this? Would the 31° of Al's Run on Taos powder be more or less challenging than the 29° on Killington concrete? Would 100 yards of 53° packed powder on Corbet's Couloir be hairier than 100 yards of 35° blue ice on Ripcord? This table, as it continues to grow, is neither intended nor qualified to be the final arbiter in a discussion of trail difficulty...it is merely an additional point of reference.

While individual steep sections give the above trails their notoriety, there are other trails that are better known for the overall experience. These are the grand courses of downhill skiing: Trails or routes over one mile in length, universally known by name. Some are steep in sections; a few of those sections are listed above. With these trails it is more important to consider the length and vertical drop of the overall run. The slope angles may not appear impressive, but remember this is the average of the entire course -- in some spots it can be twice the number shown.

Average Angle in Degrees of Entire Courses
Minimum Length One Mile

Ski Area, Course Average Angle (Degrees), Length of Measurement, Vertical Drop of Measured Length, Notes
Aspen, CO Ruthie's Run 14.3° 5507' 1366' length of lift
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 16.8° 8606' 2484' regular mens downhill
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 18.4° 7002' 2215' mens downhill weather start
Beaver Creek, CO Birds of Prey 19° 6165' 2005' mens super G
Timberline Lodge, OR Palmer Snowfield 16.4° 5295' 1497' summer public lane
Wengen, SWITZ Lauberhorn 13.3° 14,698' 3373' regular mens downhill

Skied the Lauberhorn from the top in Wengen 2 years ago... Only some sections were steep, but didn't seem that bad... One area as you round the corner, ski patrol was waiting for the skiers that stacked up... I anticipated and was not racing like most of the skiers on that run.. Actually it was super fun.