Help Staying Forward Through the Turn?

[Skisailor]

Gotcha.

 

[liquidfeet]

Usually the part where people get back is at the top of the turn, when they need to allow their upper bodies to get downhill of their skis. This is scary to do when it's unfamiliar, but feels great once it's embedded. I had a student tell me she thought she'd go too fast if she got her weight forward. I think that's common. Practice getting the body downhill "foragonally" over the skis as they start to turn to point downhill, and do this on stupid-easy terrain so the fear of going faster (which doesn't actually happen though our brains tell us it will) won't be so worrisome.

 

[Jilly]

We used to say...falling through the door...but it's not really that anymore. (Back on straight skis) Staying in the back seat or loading the tails, will not work well on steeps or bumps, that for sure. Forward and balanced is what is needed.

 

[Fluffy Kitty]

This is a video my Okemo instructor shared with us that has really helped me conceptualize what my feet should be doing to get on my edges:

I definitely need those slo-mo skis!

 

[nopoleskier]

I've been thinking about this today, I do love to carve and be on edge and lay 'rail road' tracks.. I think you must 'lay' on the tongue of your boot and Flex that ankle, let it ride and feel the 'g' forces as you accelerate into the turn. Feeling the 'g's is the spooky part when learning, start on flatter terrain, exaggerate the movement to start, stay lower, and really flex your ankles, bend those knees and let those skis arc, keep the shoulders & upper body down the hill into the fall line. Don't stand up that's when you may get tossed into the back seat from the g's .

 

[marzNC]

Garlands would be great. Also - sideslipping to an edged stop. Both would be good for practicing the right way to edge and to unedge.

Finally found a video of what I think of as garlands. Was created in March 2017 by a PSIA L3 instructor who lives in Park City. I was skiing at Alta that week with my daughter during her spring break. Temps in the 50s at the base all week long. It was the hottest week the entire season.

Most of the hits for that term come up with a drill for advanced skiers that really isn't what I've done with my Massanutten coach. Have done garlands with an instructor the most on a blue (harder green or easy blue out west) in the Mid-Atlantic. But learned a lot when he was trying to get an old dog (man over 50) to do it correctly on the harder green at Massanutten (Geronimo). That man couldn't get the idea on the blue (Upper or Lower Showtime). Have also done garlands with L3 instructors at destination resorts, but usually just part of one run.

She also has a video clip for sideslipping.

 

[Jilly]

The first video is good. You can also make a little wedge if you need to. We call them "chicken turns", because you chicken out of a full turn.

 

[volklgirl]

There could be several things going on regarding tail skid at the end of the turn.

1. Ski Design: A twin-tip or rounded tail ski, especially with any tail rocker, is made for early turn release/skid. This is an advantage for powder, crud, slush, bumps, and skiers who haven't been trained in serious carving. Learning to really carve is much easier with a race-type ski with a flared and flat tail that will want to grip through the bottom of the turn.
2. Alignment: If your static stance/alignment is off, you will have a more difficult time learning to carve. Too much forward lean can cause sitting back and skidding; as can too stiff a boot. Canting is equally important - without proper canting, I develop a wicked abstem and can't hold the bottom of my left turns.
3. Tecnique: Learning/perfecting the carve requires LOTS of time on wide, super flat terrain. There can't be any reason to require speed control as you learn this, as that will ingrain that end-of-turn skid to dump the speed that naturally develops in a carve.

• Staying too far forward in the middle to end of the turn will also cause skidding as it takes pressure off the tail allowing it to break free. Turns should be started with flexed ankle and pressure on the big toe, then move just slightly back so the pressure develops in the arch center to very front of the heel; this keeps the middle and tail of the ski driving into the snow, and makes it harder to twist the foot.
• Resist the urge to twist the foot at all to "make the turn happen". The turn mainly comes from angulation at the hip (pinch the ribs and hip together on the outside of the turn), with tipping at the feet and knees used to fine-tune the edge angle and make minor turn radius adjustments. Tipping into the turn (inclination), rather than pinching the waist and leveling the shoulders to the slope angle (angulation) is one of the biggest causes of skidding.
• Speed control must come from turn shape and turn completion. Once in the carve, continue that carve fully across the fall line and drive them up the hill a bit until you acheive a comfortable speed before starting the next turn. Your tracks should resemble connected capital Cs rather than the typical S shape of slarved/scarved turns.
  
• Pulling the inside foot back under the hips can help to avoid the end-of-turn skid by keeping the pressure centered on the skis and keeping the hips more squared to the skis.
• Think about keeping the shins parallel and driving the inside knee into the new turn very early in the transition. If your shins aren't parallel, you're likely bracing on the inside ski and inclining rather than angulating. This takes the pressure off the tail of the outside ski causing skidding.
  
• The hardest, and most important movement in carving is moving the center of mass into the center of the next turn (foragonally, as liquidfeet said) and just letting the feet follow along through the transition and into the turn. Some will say you should point your belly button into the next turn, but I find that often causes over rotation and end-of-turn skid. Instead, I find just driving the new inside hip to the next turn is the ticket.
• Pole use can be strangely important in learning flat terrain, large turn carving; touching the pole too far into the turn (reaching) or too far back (dragging), can both cause end-of-turn skidding. While learning the carve, the pole touch should be pretty gentle and occur forward and somewhat close to the ski tip to get the shoulder and hip moving forward as well as into the next turn.

 

[liquidfeet]

Now that's a thorough list of causes of outside ski tail skid. Glad to see you posting, @volklgirl!

 

[marzNC]

I'm getting better at staying balanced over my skis with my ankles flexed, but the problem is that the momentum of the turn throws me back onto my heels sometimes. I try to make sure my ski pole handles are always in view, and I've found that if I deliberately bring the relevant hand over toward the toes piece of the outside ski that it helps a bit.

I know you were asking about what to do during a turn, but came across an old thread with a video that might be useful. It's not about turning but is about fore-aft balance.

 

[SallyCat]

I know you were asking about what to do during a turn, but came across an old thread with a video that might be useful. It's not about turning but is about fore-aft balance.

Thank you for that!!!

 

[VickiK]

I know you were asking about what to do during a turn, but came across an old thread with a video that might be useful. It's not about turning but is about fore-aft balance.

I've been looking for that video for a long time - thanks for sharing it again!

 

[marzNC]

@SallyCat : one thing led to another and eventually I found this article about how the parts of the leg move. Includes a very interesting video showing how the bones interact that was put together by an Australian ski instructor (Level 3/4 in more than one country, alpine and telemark) who got interested in functional movement as a career move.

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2017/12/27/explained-3d-joint-motions-of-skiing-feet-knees-and-hips/

 

[Skisailor]

I know you were asking about what to do during a turn, but came across an old thread with a video that might be useful. It's not about turning but is about fore-aft balance.

Wow. Sorry. But I really disagree with many of her major points.

The worst part IMHO is around time stamp 2:45 where she says the guy's hips and butt are moving back because he is bending at the hips and bringing his shoulders forward! Not so!! Notice how we can't see what his legs are doing while she bends him forward? Hinging forward at the hips does NOT change the position of the hips relative to the feet. What affects our hip position over our feet is the relative amount of knee flexion vs. ankle flexion.

Stand with your back against a wall. You can bend forward at the hips and bring your shoulders forward without busting through the wall with your butt! Bringing shoulders forward does NOT move hips back.

This video does such a disservice to skiers trying to find their fore aft stance and balance. The two most common causes of backseat skiing that I have observed are 1) knees bent too much relative to ankles and/or 2) spine angle is too vertical (shoulders too far back). I am constantly having to reassure skiers that flexing forward in the hips does not make their butts stick out. (and we women seem to be the most worried about it).

We must simply flex and unflex our ankles, knees and hips together in a way that keeps our weight centered over the balls of the feet - something we all can feel and experiment with. Our individual anatomies will dictate the relative amount of flex of the different joints to achieve this.

 

[nopoleskier]

We must simply flex and unflex our ankles, knees and hips together in a way that keeps our weight centered over the balls of the feet - something we all can feel and experiment with. Our individual anatomies will dictate the relative amount of flex of the different joints to achieve this.

YES YES YES!