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Question: Heel lifts, toe lifts or what??

MissySki

Angel Diva
I've had heel lifts since last season, ever since I got my new boots and couldn't pressure the fronts of my skis to turn at all without them. This year I've been really struggling to get out of the back seat and it's progressively been getting worse to the point that my confidence has taken a major hit and I'm skiing much slower etc, I just don't feel comfortable or balanced AT ALL. I think I was in denial for awhile, but I can't be anymore.

So I've been researching and found that many people get in the backseat because of heel lifts. I also found that typically someone with super hyperflexible ankles like I have would want to have their toes raised above their heels not the other way around. This made me say hmmmm.. I've felt like my boots have too much forward lean for awhile, but it's really my stance in the boot because they are actually quite upright in general. I've also had an instructor mention this to me in the past.

This weekend I decided to play with my boots. So I took a run with the heel lifts removed, and it didn't make much difference. I felt mostly the same except my toes weirdly felt like they would lift up when I leaned forward and I've had that happen before and don't like it. Not that there is much room in my boot, but my toes unweight if that makes sense, and it did nothing good for my balance complaints. Mind you, my feet are freakishly flexible and have loose tendons etc., so any tiny bit of room and my foot can move in weird ways and feel very unstable (this has been one of our challenges in my boot saga).

Next I turned my heel lifts into toe lifts. I was very iffy on going out and trying to ski because it wasn't comfortable at all due to my toes then being clamped down from the top and bottom everything was so squished from stuffing the heel lift up there, almost no room to even wiggle at first. Well I go out and it's like night and day, I felt fantastic, out of the backseat and very stacked and upright. After a few runs my confidence was really coming back and I was zooming all around again. Eventually things relaxed and I could slightly wiggle my toes anyway. It wasn't comfortable, but I didn't mind it either, at least I could ski better than most of the past month!

As the day went on though, and I'd hit hard packed and icy stuff ( spring? More like winter Saturday!). My tails were hopelessly washing out. This was a major what the heck?? Very frustrating, I don't usually have problems on these conditions and it was like I could get no purchase and would be in a hockey stop position going down the mountain. I eventually had to stop for the day because the balls of my feet were burning, but I wasn't surprised they didn't like something shoved under there that wasn't meant to be there, and it was already 3:00 so I didn't mind stopping. Legs felt great with almost no fatigue too.

On the way home I was trying to figure out the tail wash out thing and read that this can happen when you are too forward. Seriously? So heel lifts and nothing in the boot puts me in the backseat and unbalanced and toe lifts too much in the front, but feel nice and upright and balanced. What gives??

I plan to go to my bootfitter and see if he can give me something quick and temporary to try for the remainder of this season. Maybe my heel lifts were too much to use as toe lifts? Any words of advice?

Also, has anyone else had the sensation of toes being unweighted even when you are weighted on the balls of your feet? I found I really liked my toes being pushed securely from the top of my boot with the toe lifts in there, not sure if that's weird.. I really hate ski boots sometimes, feel like just when you think things are good more problems come up..
 

contesstant

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Do you have custom moldable footbeds? (said one hyper-mobile person to another--my feet are like noodles too.)

Also, it might take you more than a few runs, or even a day, to get used to any changes.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
I do have custom footbeds. I'm sure things would be much worse without them! :smile:

Very true, could take awhile to see if things work out completely. I did do 15 runs with the heel lifts at the toe. I definitely need to get some real ones to try out because the heel lifts for my tiny heel were not wide enough for my wide forefoot which might be why I ended up with pain after awhile.
 

Celestron2000

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
It sounds like something under the toes, a little smaller than your heel lifts could be just the ticket, or maybe your bootfitter could build up your footbeds under the toes....
Not that I'm any kinda expert, but hey if it's working for ya...
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Yeah, I'm going to go speak to my bootfitter sometime this week. I am kind of dreading it, I feel like I have a sign on my head that reads "here's the neurotic woman here to complain about something else" every time I walk in now lol, even though I actually haven't been there in awhile now. Trust me guys, I don't want to be back again! The annoying thing is they always put me up on this balance board to look at my stance and balance and it's just not how things are when I'm clicked into bindings and actually skiing. Everything will feel honkey dory in the shop and then not on the mountain.. I'm also terrible at balancing on the stupid thing in general and then feel stupid.
 

vanhoskier

Angel Diva
Yeah, I'm going to go speak to my bootfitter sometime this week. I am kind of dreading it, I feel like I have a sign on my head that reads "here's the neurotic woman here to complain about something else" every time I walk in now lol, even though I actually haven't been there in awhile now. Trust me guys, I don't want to be back again!

You're not a neurotic woman, you are naturally one who analyzes problems (you're a chemist, right? :wink:). I too have had the sensation of lifting my toes in my boot. In fact, some instructors will teach women to purposely do this to get forward and to help weight the ski properly in a turn!

When I got my new boots in February (Lange RS120), and I took them out for a test run, like you, I had trouble getting forward and pressuring the tips of my skis. Langes have a pretty nonexistent ramp angle, if I understand correctly. So, I asked the bootfitter to put in heel lifts. And, as I did this, I thought to myself, "Egads! Hypocrisy!" because I had had TOE LIFTS in my Dalbellos and I loved it. However, the bootfitter said the Dalbellos had a higher ramp angle. But, his demeanor seemed to suggest that I should just adapt and NOT use heel lifts, but he wanted a happy customer, so he complied. And, it worked. However, recently, just like you, I've been feeling like I get in the back seat and wonder if I should take the dad-gummed heel lifts out.

Since I am headed to PSIA's National Academy in Snowbird Wednesday, I'm afraid to mess around with this now. But, I am taking a clinic on boot fitting, and a clinic on stance/alignment there, so maybe I can get the issue addressed then, when I can talk to folks there and they see me ski.

Sometimes I get in the back seat without realizing it, and only see it in pictures, or if somebody is critiquing me. I drop my butt, usually when I'm skiing stuff that is challenging for me. It's really annoying. And, it looks silly! :redface: I'm hoping, like you, that I can fix the issue.

The annoying thing is they always put me up on this balance board to look at my stance and balance and it's just not how things are when I'm clicked into bindings and actually skiing. Everything will feel honkey dory in the shop and then not on the mountain.. I'm also terrible at balancing on the stupid thing in general and then feel stupid.

I've had the same experience with the balance board thing. It just isn't the same as skiing. And, I think the reason is, skiing is dynamic. Standing on that balance board thing is still static. Actually, I had boot canting done by using the balance board; i.e. putting me on the thing then putting shims under my boots until I was well-balanced, and I ended up with boots that were OVER-CANTED. Balancing on skis is a different animal, and something that has to be learned over a long period of time until muscle memory takes over.
 

NewEnglandSkier

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I have flexible feet and tons of dorsiflexion in my ankles. Sometimes I feel like I'm unconsciously lifting my toes in my boots in order to get forward. I've found when someone puts heel lifts in my boots I feel pitched too forward so end up leaning back to compensate. When I lift my toes I feel like it helps.
The funny thing was one fitter put toe lifts under my footbeds but it was in a new pair of boots that I had all sorts of issues with so I couldn't really tell if the toe lifts helped or not . ..and we took them out for my current boots. However, I've been thinking lately about putting some back in to see how that goes.
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
I too have had the sensation of lifting my toes in my boot. In fact, some instructors will teach women to purposely do this to get forward and to help weight the ski properly in a turn!

Wait, so do they teach this as what you don't want to do so you feel the difference, or as it being what you do want to do? I hate the feeling of my toes lifting, I like when everything sits down and doesn't move in that region! :smile:

When I got my new boots in February (Lange RS120), and I took them out for a test run, like you, I had trouble getting forward and pressuring the tips of my skis. Langes have a pretty nonexistent ramp angle, if I understand correctly. So, I asked the bootfitter to put in heel lifts. And, as I did this, I thought to myself, "Egads! Hypocrisy!" because I had had TOE LIFTS in my Dalbellos and I loved it. However, the bootfitter said the Dalbellos had a higher ramp angle. But, his demeanor seemed to suggest that I should just adapt and NOT use heel lifts, but he wanted a happy customer, so he complied. And, it worked. However, recently, just like you, I've been feeling like I get in the back seat and wonder if I should take the dad-gummed heel lifts out.

Same here, I had to convince my fitter that heel lifts seemed like a good idea at the time. He was hesitant, but then when he put them in he was surprised to see it seemed to improve my stance so I didn't give it a second thought at the time. Hehe, seems like we have more and more in common with our stance and alignment issues huh?

Since I am headed to PSIA's National Academy in Snowbird Wednesday, I'm afraid to mess around with this now. But, I am taking a clinic on boot fitting, and a clinic on stance/alignment there, so maybe I can get the issue addressed then, when I can talk to folks there and they see me ski.

A) I'm super jealous because that sounds like such a great experience! Enjoy! (Off topic, but how do the Rossi S3 skis pack up for transport if you are bringing yours with you? I was curious if the rocker would be an issue if you use a sportube type case?)

B) Since as I said above, we seem to have some similar issues, if you get any helpful tips and tricks in bootfitting and stance/alignment please pass them along my way!

Sometimes I get in the back seat without realizing it, and only see it in pictures, or if somebody is critiquing me. I drop my butt, usually when I'm skiing stuff that is challenging for me. It's really annoying. And, it looks silly! :redface: I'm hoping, like you, that I can fix the issue.

Hopefully I'm on the right track anyway, I wouldn't call it fixed as now I'm at the other extreme apparently..


I've had the same experience with the balance board thing. It just isn't the same as skiing. And, I think the reason is, skiing is dynamic. Standing on that balance board thing is still static. Actually, I had boot canting done by using the balance board; i.e. putting me on the thing then putting shims under my boots until I was well-balanced, and I ended up with boots that were OVER-CANTED. Balancing on skis is a different animal, and something that has to be learned over a long period of time until muscle memory takes over.

I will need to revisit the whole canting issue next season too since they couldn't find plates to work for me yet. It never ends.. Good thing I love this sport so much, because sometimes the boots really drive me crazy! :crazy:
 

tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I will need to revisit the whole canting issue next season too since they couldn't find plates to work for me yet. It never ends.. Good thing I love this sport so much, because sometimes the boots really drive me crazy! :crazy:

Did you ever hear back from Torin?
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Did you ever hear back from Torin?

No, I wonder if he never got my response email or something. I'll just contact him next fall if I'm going to go there. I'm still hesitant to go so far for boot work in case I need more later ( we are never in that area normally), but we'll see.
 

Jilly

Moderator
Staff member
I've never seen this balance board thing at a boot fitters, but.......

As for your Sportube, I barely got my Temptation 88's in. The width of the shovel is 135mm, or over 5 1/4" inches. They made it in, but not a lot of room left. The tip and tail rocker wasn't a problem. Sportube is going to need to make their single boxes larger for these wide boards. I have a problem with gondola's and the width of the tail. The skis don't fit into the slots.
 

whitewater girl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
another one here who lifts her toes - in some boots!...my current one's (Fischer vacuum, with no lifts) I don't, but I don't quite feel like the balance is right either (better than most boots I've had, but I'm having trouble finding the "sweet spot" fore/aft
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
another one here who lifts her toes - in some boots!...my current one's (Fischer vacuum, with no lifts) I don't, but I don't quite feel like the balance is right either (better than most boots I've had, but I'm having trouble finding the "sweet spot" fore/aft

Hmm same boots as me! :smile:. Maybe the fore/aft is an issue with the process. I was wondering if maybe I did something weird during the remold I did this season that I didn't realize. I'm planning to remold tighter again next fall and also put in intuition liners so I will be very aware of how I stand next time!

Do you find yours loosen up over the season? I felt it did last season and this season again, although better this year since I molded with more pressure, and my left foot is better than my right probably because my right is the most noodley foot. The overall fit is still amazing though. Just need to work out the bugs..
 

MissySki

Angel Diva
Those of you with toe lifts, are they inside your boot, outside your boot, or under your binding?

I thought you could do inside, but my boot fitter kind of shot me down today when I went there. He said it just ends up bunching your toes, but 1) I liked the tightness in my toes, just needs to be dialed back a little since I was too far forward with my heel lift experiments and need to go a little thinner, and 2) I have Fischer Vacuum boots and want to remold in the fall anyhow so it would naturally make room to fit anyway!

He was actually not helpful at all in general, and I'm starting to think I'm going to be looking into a new fitter. I was once again told to put duct tape on the bottom of my boot as a solution, and that he didn't really know what to tell be about the balance issues I'm having overall. What the heck? I am not going to forever just put duct tape on my boots, I need someone who can rig something up to make my issues better in a more permanent fashion. The only problem now is I need somewhere with Vacuum capability for the Fischer boot so I can't just go anywhere.. :(
 

whitewater girl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Do you find yours loosen up over the season? I felt it did last season and this season again, although better this year since I molded with more pressure, and my left foot is better than my right probably because my right is the most noodley foot. The overall fit is still amazing though. Just need to work out the bugs..
they have loosened some, but oddly it doesn't seem to have affected the responsiveness of the boot (hasn't loosened, apparently, anywhere that "matters")...

I'm loving the boots, like you, just have a few bugs to work out...despite not feeling I've found the "sweet spot", I am actually far more "stable" in these boot than any other I've owned (I have fewer "oops" & recover easier from them when I do)...the boot fitter I went to in Ithaca, NY was very knowledgeable & helpful - I plan on hitting him up early next season to see if he can "fix" the fore/aft balance issue too :smile: (that & lessons from an instructor I've found who knows about pronation issues! Woo Hoo! If I'd know March was going to have such good skiing, I'd have done it already!)

(btw, the Ithaca bootfitter is from the "no heel lifts" school of thought....)
 

vanhoskier

Angel Diva
Those of you with toe lifts, are they inside your boot, outside your boot, or under your binding?

I thought you could do inside, but my boot fitter kind of shot me down today when I went there. He said it just ends up bunching your toes, but 1) I liked the tightness in my toes, just needs to be dialed back a little since I was too far forward with my heel lift experiments and need to go a little thinner, and 2) I have Fischer Vacuum boots and want to remold in the fall anyhow so it would naturally make room to fit anyway!

He was actually not helpful at all in general, and I'm starting to think I'm going to be looking into a new fitter. I was once again told to put duct tape on the bottom of my boot as a solution, and that he didn't really know what to tell be about the balance issues I'm having overall. What the heck? I am not going to forever just put duct tape on my boots, I need someone who can rig something up to make my issues better in a more permanent fashion. The only problem now is I need somewhere with Vacuum capability for the Fischer boot so I can't just go anywhere.. :(

So, I took my heel lifts out and my fore aft stance is so much better! I have no idea why I had them in the first place.

I learned a lot from a boot fitter here at Snowbird regarding alignment issues. I've struggled with alignment for years. This guy was able to correct my alignment quite a bit by re-making my footbeds. He said correcting alignment can be counterintuitive. Instead of building up the inside of the footbed, he made them so my big toe lay flat, which stabilized my feet and made a huge difference.

Missy ski, if the duct tape works, instead of putting it on the bottom of your boots, put it under the heel piece of your bindings.
 

vanhoskier

Angel Diva
As far as lifting toes, I've seen some female instructors have women do it on purpose if they're having trouble getting forward. I think it might help the flexion at the ankle.

My S3's fit fine in my Sportube; no problems! Very popular ski here at Snowbird; they're everywhere! (Along with Dynastar Chams).
 

vanhoskier

Angel Diva
Went to a great stance/alignment lecture last evening.....there was a great visual demonstration of how heel lifts can put one in the back seat.

Pay attention to the angles between the green dots on the skier's hips and knees.

Stance with heel lifts and boot spoilers:ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366073221.612544.jpg
Stance without heel lifts but still with spoilers:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366073270.564737.jpg
Stance without heel lifts and spoilers:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366073317.915124.jpg
Stance with toe lifts only (not needed for Cindy's current boot....puts her too upright):
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1366073382.799243.jpg
 

litterbug

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Hey, what's she doing with my boots! I don't need no stinkin' lifts or whatever!

By the way, what's a spoiler?
 

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