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Have you ever fallen on your own binding?

fgor

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Like you and @BlueSkies I have this experience. I bruise easily, and some of them are pretty startling when I have no idea what happened.

I fell on my binding once. Since it was in a big messy fall, I didn't know where my bruise came from. Mr. Blizzard identified it at once - apparently he has seen those binding-shaped bruises on more than one occasion.

Haha, I wasn't sure what I'd landed on at first either, it wasn't until I stopped and looked around and saw one of my skis lying very suspiciously near me that I realised what it was, and then the shape of the bruise confirmed it :P
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@fgor, you can guess why I ask. If you lose a ski almost every time you fall, that strengthens my concerns. I sense you think falling with a ski attached is very likely to twist your knee. I get that. But losing a ski when your boot should stay attached can cause you to fall in the first place.

Yes, losing a ski can help protect knees. But what bindings are primarily designed to do is stop you from breaking your lower leg above the cuff, not protect the knees from twisting damage. The other thing they are supposed to do is keep your skis on your feet as your skis experience unexpected forces so you don't fall when you could more safely stay upright.

Please do think about this, and read up about bindings over your green season. You might look at "knee-bindings" that have been designed to protect knees as well as the lower leg.

Personal story:
When I first learned as an adult to ski, I fell a lot. I was adventurous and willing to experiment with movement patterns, as I sense you are. I embraced the saying "no pain no gain" or "if you're not falling you're not learning."

Clumsy falls were my thing. My skis usually stayed on, and I learned to lift them in the air as I went down to keep the twisting at a minimum. I never hurt my knees in those falls, and there were so many. SO many, and those falls continued even after I became an instructor. I used to count to see how many falls per day I'd have. 10 was a lot, 3-6 was normal. I would predictably fall in training sessions; it was so embarrassing. For years I never went through a day without falling at least once. And my skis most always stayed on with no knee damage happening. Food for thought.

I rarely fall now as my skill level is much higher. The only falls I had last season were caused by three surprise pre-releases on two sets of skis. One time someone in a crowd stepped on a ski when I was slowly skiing along on the flats. Off the ski came. Another I was making a very high speed 90º left turn and the forces were high; one ski simply came off and away I slid. The other time I was goign 0.0001 miles per hour on easy bumps and one ski brake caught on a branch; off that ski came. Actually I don't think I went down that time.

I examined the lugs on my boots and they were fine, so I decided to up the binding settings on all my skis. They guys in the shop were willing to do it because I changed my aggression factor from 3 to 3+. I had no more falls.
 
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gingerjess

Angel Diva
Yes, losing a ski can help protect knees. But what bindings are primarily designed to do is stop you from breaking your lower leg above the cuff, not protect the knees from twisting damage. The other thing they are supposed to do is keep your skis on your feet as your skis experience unexpected forces so you don't fall when you could more safely stay upright.

I have a question about this section. As DIN relates to skill level, is it more a matter of a more skilled skier typically introducing greater forces between their skis and boots more frequently (and needing those forces not to release them during normal operation), or is it a matter of a more-skilled skier being more able to recover safely from the abnormal and dangerous situations signified by greater forces, and putting more trust in their ability to do so and fall safely if required as compared to having the binding release and force the skier to deal with an unpredictable fall?

In other words, would a highly-skilled skier with a lot of finesse in their motion be able to ski aggressively on a relatively low DIN setting without triggering a release because they don't introduce forces that could trigger a release, or does aggressive skiing itself, regardless of technical proficiency, just tend to trigger a release on lower DIN settings?
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I have a question about this section. As DIN relates to skill level, is it more a matter of a more skilled skier typically introducing greater forces between their skis and boots more frequently (and needing those forces not to release them during normal operation), or is it a matter of a more-skilled skier being more able to recover safely from the abnormal and dangerous situations signified by greater forces, and putting more trust in their ability to do so and fall safely if required as compared to having the binding release and force the skier to deal with an unpredictable fall?

In other words, would a highly-skilled skier with a lot of finesse in their motion be able to ski aggressively on a relatively low DIN setting without triggering a release because they don't introduce forces that could trigger a release, or does aggressive skiing itself, regardless of technical proficiency, just tend to trigger a release on lower DIN settings?
For those who get to ski in deep powder, that's another factor.

The only time I've requested a slightly higher DIN setting was when I rented powder skis for 30 inches of fresh snow at Alta. I popped out twice for no real reason during the morning. Once I was on a flat connector trail but decided to get out of the straight tracks I was following. Big mistake! Although my ski was just behind me and easy to retrieve just by pulling on the powder cord, it still took a major effort to get it back on. Popped out again on the next run making a turn on that wasn't hard at all in soft bumps on a steep and narrow trail. At lunch time I changed skis (wider) and signed off on upping the DIN by a bit. Moral is that pre-release in deep powder is to be avoided.

Been a while since there was a discussion of DIN settings.

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/when-to-bump-up-the-din.11563/

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-me-understand-binding-din-settings.24850/
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
....
In other words, would a highly-skilled skier with a lot of finesse in their motion be able to ski aggressively on a relatively low DIN setting without triggering a release because they don't introduce forces that could trigger a release, or does aggressive skiing itself, regardless of technical proficiency, just tend to trigger a release on lower DIN settings?

I'll answer that bolded question directly. Aggression = higher forces. Skiers turn. Turning is accelerating, by definition. Acceleration puts stress on the ski-boot interface. Bindings endure high forces even when a skilled skier is extremely well-balanced and doing everything with great precision - if they are going fast, making quick short turns, or encountering inconsistent snow. Such bindings need to be set high enough to not let go on those skiers. When the binding lets go, it's too late for the skier to use their skills to recover.

Highly skilled skiers who ski aggressively set their bindings higher than even a 3+ chart setting would indicate (definitely not me).

Highly skilled skiers who choose to ski slowly - because they are getting old and know they don't heal easily any more, or maybe because they don't seek speed or thrills any more, or because memory of past injury makes them ski with caution - will often set their bindings back lower than the chart indicates since the higher setting is not needed to avoid a pre-release. Their skiing will produce less force and stress on the binding.

Advancing skiers who ski aggressively, or who embrace adventure, who seek thrills, or who are experimenting and consequentially get themselves into situations that put high stress on their bindings (as I used to do and maybe as you do too), might find their bindings letting go if they choose lower than recommended settings. Losing a ski usually causes a fall. Falls can hurt. Falling and sliding into immovable objects off the side of a trail can hurt a lot.
 
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marzNC

Angel Diva
Highly skilled skiers who choose to ski slowly - because they are getting old and know they don't heal easily any more, or maybe because they don't seek speed or thrills any more - will often set their bindings back lower than the chart indicates since the higher setting is not needed to avoid a pre-release.
I would add that older skiers (over 55) with solid fundamentals who are in good shape can set their bindings a little lower and not pre-release even when skiing fast on challenging terrain. After knee rehab, I set my DIN setting one notch lower. I also started taking lessons pretty regularly as an advanced skier who still wanted to improve in order to explore more terrain at big mountains out west. After a few seasons and lots of mileage (helps to be retired), I was skiing far more complex terrain at places like Alta or Big Sky and did not have any issues with pre-release. I ski a lot faster than ten years ago.
 

TNtoTaos

Angel Diva
Bindings set to 4.5 as they were all season :P Honestly it wasn't a fall that made me consider moving up the DIN settings....

I seem to have a knack for falling badly if bindings are meant to stay on in most falls... normally when I fall, I lose a ski, and often I'm praying while I'm falling that the ski pops off before my knee does!
I feel the same way! Whenever I have my DIN set, I always ask them to back it off a bit from what they calculate from my wt/ht/ability, as I'd always prefer to have my ski pop off before some body part gives.
 

fgor

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Lots to think about here!

@fgor, you can guess why I ask. If you lose a ski almost every time you fall, that strengthens my concerns. I sense you think falling with a ski attached is very likely to twist your knee. I get that. But losing a ski when your boot should stay attached can cause you to fall in the first place.

Yes, losing a ski can help protect knees. But what bindings are primarily designed to do is stop you from breaking your lower leg above the cuff, not protect the knees from twisting damage. The other thing they are supposed to do is keep your skis on your feet as your skis experience unexpected forces so you don't fall when you could more safely stay upright.

Please do think about this, and read up about bindings over your green season. You might look at "knee-bindings" that have been designed to protect knees as well as the lower leg.

Personal story:
When I first learned as an adult to ski, I fell a lot. I was adventurous and willing to experiment with movement patterns, as I sense you are. I embraced the saying "no pain no gain" or "if you're not falling you're not learning."

Clumsy falls were my thing. My skis usually stayed on, and I learned to lift them in the air as I went down to keep the twisting at a minimum. ...

I've become a lot more adventurous this past season, but I didn't really start being adventurous or falling much until part-way or mid-way into the season, after I'd had a few lessons and had gained some confidence in my ability to turn. Part of what keeps me confident and largely not afraid of falling is the knowledge that typically one of my skis will pop off when I fall. This sort of lets me know that my bindings are acting correctly. I might fall once every 1-2 ski days. Occasionally multiple times in a day, if the snow conditions are sticky or powder. I can't imagine being able to lift my skis in the air as I fall - generally when I fall, I tumble, often because I've caught an edge weirdly, so there's no real scope to know where I am in the air and keep my skis off the ground!

My understanding of knee bindings (from looking them up multiple times over the past 12 months) is that they are designed to protect against a specific kind of backward twisting fall which current bindings do little to mitigate. Unfortunately I've also read far too many contentious and highly negative things about the binding, not to mention they're not available here anyway (would anyone be able to mount them even if I did import them?)! Not sure if the binding is still being developed and improved. However a binding that releases in another dimension still has the same DIN issues as any other binding and if I had them, it wouldn't change how I determine my DIN setting.

Actually it would be interesting to see an up-to-date thread about the binding, are there any Divas who ski the kneebinding?

For those who get to ski in deep powder, that's another factor.

The only time I've requested a slightly higher DIN setting was when I rented powder skis for 30 inches of fresh snow at Alta. I popped out twice for no real reason during the morning. Once I was on a flat connector trail but decided to get out of the straight tracks I was following. Big mistake! Although my ski was just behind me and easy to retrieve just by pulling on the powder cord, it still took a major effort to get it back on. Popped out again on the next run making a turn on that wasn't hard at all in soft bumps on a steep and narrow trail. At lunch time I changed skis (wider) and signed off on upping the DIN by a bit. Moral is that pre-release in deep powder is to be avoided.

Been a while since there was a discussion of DIN settings.

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/when-to-bump-up-the-din.11563/

https://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/help-me-understand-binding-din-settings.24850/

I can't imagine skiing 30 inches of fresh!! Amazing!!

I will comment that if I were to turn up my bindings, I'd turn them down again for powder days. Aside from this dumb shoulder thing, my only ski injury has been a late release when I got my skis completely stuck in a tip dive on my second ever powder day, and my bindings released late (yes, at 4.5 DIN - I wasn't going overly fast). I sprained my LCL as a result and hated powder for the rest of the season. That was last year. I'm still a bit scared of powder to this day for this reason.

That was on my black pearl 88s. I tip dive on those all the time in powder and release a lot. On the other hand I've never had a ski release in powder or chop on my Pandora 104s. This makes me think that either the higher binding elasticity has a part to play (pivot12 on the pandoras vs nx12 on the BP88), or my releases were justified on the BP88 because I was genuinely getting my ski stuck because I am bad at skiing powder, especially on narrower skis. I'm inclined to think mostly the latter.

I feel like I get conflicting advice every time I talk about DIN settings with anyone. I'm still not really convinced one way or the other. I still genuinely think that it's likely that most if not all of my ski releases were justified. I've had quite a few falls on piste where I was trying to do very quick turns, got too much on my inside ski, and felt my skis start to go in different directions extremely quickly before falling/one popping off. I wouldn't consider this a pre release and was perfectly happy to lose a ski every time. I also ski slower than most people on the mountain so I don't feel that I am a true type II skier, given that most skiers probably fall into that type II category. Maybe type 1.5 skier? This would justify a 0.5 DIN increase. I might consider that next season (but not first thing as I'll have forgotten how to ski in another 7-8 months :laughter:)

I don't know. DINs are tricky, it would be so much easier if I just had obvious pre releases :smile:
 

marzNC

Angel Diva
I also ski slower than most people on the mountain so I don't feel that I am a true type II skier, given that most skiers probably fall into that type II category. Maybe type 1.5 skier?
Type I is for beginners. You're long past that. Type III is for more agressive advanced skiers. Type II is for everyone else.

I don't think of speed as an indicator of how good a skier is from a technique standpoint. Most of the folks who ski fast at my home hill have lousy technique. It's much harder to make good turns at a relatively slow speed than to skid a turn at a faster speed. That's why practicing on a green or blue can actually be harder for some drills.

There is a short headwall at my home hill. Really short, only enough for maybe 3 turns. It's really not that steep except in comparison to the rest of the terrain. When I told one of the really experienced instructors that I was happy I was finally able to ski it without needing to stop at the top, she smiled and said something like: "That's great, now here's what you should practice next. Go over the top and continue making nice turns but don't speed up." Took a couple more seasons and lots of practice to manage to make that happen.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
My second year skiing, Mr. Blizzard (my soon-to-be-ex partner, and skier and ski technician extraordinaire) kept telling me I needed to go higher on my DIN. I was very reluctant to. I liked it when I released in a fall, largely because I couldn't get up without taking a ski off anyway! :yardsale:

Then we were skiing in the spring, and my skis kept getting caught and it was very jerky, not smooth. Then I had another fall, but this time I realized that the binding released, and then I fell. I agreed to turn up the DIN. Now I follow the chart.

I had never experienced the release-without-falling sensation before. I was on a nearly flat spot, so no danger, but I quickly realized the danger it would pose at speed, or even slowly on a steep hill.

Darn these experienced skiers! I hate it when he's right. :wink:
 

Divegirl

Angel Diva
@fgor - I have not fallen on my binding but I did have an imprint of the edge of my ski on my forehead after it came off and smacked me in the head during a fall - a red vertical line surrounded by a lovely egg.
I had the imprint of my bike frame on my inner thighs after hitting a buried railroad track and I was bruised from my collar bones to my ankles from getting slammed by a dive boat in rough water.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
I did have an imprint of the edge of my ski on my forehead after it came off and smacked me in the head during a fall - a red vertical line surrounded by a lovely egg.

:useless:
:wink:
 

Abbi

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@fgor - I have not fallen on my binding but I did have an imprint of the edge of my ski on my forehead after it came off and smacked me in the head during a fall - a red vertical line surrounded by a lovely egg.
I had the imprint of my bike frame on my inner thighs after hitting a buried railroad track and I was bruised from my collar bones to my ankles from getting slammed by a dive boat in rough water.

I can so imagine doing that myself! The ski part that is! As far as water is concerned I am often banged up from sailboat racing. Less as an owner when I get to stay at the back of the boat and drive that thing! More so in the days when I created for other people and did all kinds of different jobs.
 

Abbi

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@newboots - the ski incident happened way before cell phones were a glimmer in anyone's eyes - so no photo or selfie.

@Abbi - understand about sailing - I caught my DH - to - be under the chin with a whisker pole - he told me to haul the line in so I did - he didn't move fast enough :becky:

here is a sailing injury that has a pretty good bruise. I’ll think, since I never know when I’m racing, that I hit my elbow on the metal entrance to the cabin down the companionway. I only bruised from my wrist to halfway up to my shoulder! 1604449705986.png
 

HikenSki

Angel Diva
Few years ago, I was doing some slow turns on overnight groomed rock hard snow and my ski got caught in a groove. I ended up going down and my left calf smashed into the side of my right ski. It swelled right up. I didn't dare take off my boot because it was keeping the swelling in check. Had a beautiful line bruise along the calf just above the boot cuff. It sure hurt putting my boot on in the morning when the cuff pushed on the giant welt that was there, but it didn't bother me functionally skiing, thankfully. It was the first day out and I would have been pissed to not ski for the next few days.
 

fgor

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
here is a sailing injury that has a pretty good bruise. I’ll think, since I never know when I’m racing, that I hit my elbow on the metal entrance to the cabin down the companionway. I only bruised from my wrist to halfway up to my shoulder! View attachment 14024
Omg!! What a bruise, you win this thread for sure!!
 

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