funny (to me) horse behavior...

[Serafina]

So yesterday after the lesson I was grooming the gelding out. Was working on the side of his butt with the second brush (the stiff one that comes after the rubber curry thing). Suddenly, he broke wind (it was impressive! and about 1 foot from my face!) - and while that was funny in a kind of Young Male sort of way - when he did it, he shied off to the side in alarm.

Yes. He seemed to have frightened himself by farting. It was another 3-5 minutes of soothing noises and letting him be before he was ready for more grooming.

DH was chatting last night about possibly making a trip to Disney's Animal Kingdom, and suddenly this memory flashed up with the subtitle "I'll Show You 'Animal Kingdom'" - I couldn't stop laughing for minutes.

I also have a question about Horse Behavior. I looked at the horse forums, but the mean age on the ones I saw looks to be about 15 years old, with everything that implies.

So here's the question. I'm taking this gelding out into the ring prior to the lesson. And he kept bumping me sideways with his head. He wasn't stopping, but he did bump me several times, deliberately. (No chance that he was just not paying attention, and I wasn't choking up on his lead line or anything).

I am not sure whether to interpret that as Being Friendly or Being Pushy. If it's Being Friendly, that's fine - he wasn't hurting me or anything. But if it's Being Pushy it seems to me that I probably ought to discourage it. I know from dogs and kids that you need to establish a pecking order (and that grownup/human needs to occupy the top slot). It seems to me that horses are at *least* as inclined to challenge and push boundaries as dogs, and maybe as much as the toddlers I've known. So I want to be careful that I do not inadvertently encourage challenges, boundary problems, issues with the power structure that are going to cause problems in riding, etc.

But - unlike Kid, Dog, or Cat - I don't really speak Horse yet...interpreting body language and noises is like listening to a foreign language where the only words I know are "please" and "thank you"...serviceable, but not conducive to developing a deeper understanding.

Also, if it is something to discourage, I'm not sure what the best way to do that is. I guess I could poke him when he does it, but I bet there is already something in his Horse Vocabulary that he would understand to mean Stop Invading My Space. He's a pretty seasoned veteran, thank god, because he's having to put up with all kinds of unintentional rubbish from me...I make a point of thanking him for his patience when I'm done. It doesn't matter if he can't understand that, I think it's important for me (and am willing to entertain the possibility that he will understand it, a little).

Anyway, is this something to appreciate or to discourage (the head bonk thing, not the first one...)

 

[mtngirl]

he shouldnt be bumping you.

When they invade my space like that, I turn my elbow out, and either let them bump that, which is hard and not so pleasant, or if that isnt enough, jab them with my elbow.

if they are being really rude, I will stop, growl at them and make them back up.. like GRRR GET OUT OF MY SPACE!

Basically, if you watch a herd of horses, you will see a horse lower on the pecking order invade another horses space, and that horse will usually use body language, ears pinned, maybe teeth bared, and if that isnt enough to get the other horse to back off, the more dominate horse will "do what it takes"... geldings/stallions are more likely to bite or strike, and mares are more likely to turn and kick.

 

[vickie]

Interesting question. I know nothing about horses, but it prompted me to do a search. Here's something I found:

Horses follow an instinctive rule that goes like this: "He who moves the other's feet is higher on the pecking order." As pecking order herd animals, your horse is trying to climb the pecking order over you by moving your feet.​

Not saying that applies in your case.

 

[contesstant]

OK, so the farting thing is funny. Horses tend to be gassy, but to have one fearful of their gas is hilarious! Never seen that.

As for the head-butting. Big no-no. Mtngrl is nicer than I am. If they do it to me, they get schwacked or at the very least pushed away hard with a "quit!" from me. I don't even give them a chance to bump into an elbow. I'm VERY protective of my personal space with horses. If one wants to walk on a lead next to me any closer than about 2 feet, I jab them in the shoulder to get them to move further away. If that doesn't work, I'll get a crop and poke them with the end. If THAT doesn't work, I'll turn the crop around and give them a swat with it on the shoulder.

So, for the head-butter pushy one, don't let him do it anymore. He's being rude. He might be doing it in kind of a sweet way, but he's still being rude

 

[Serafina]

Thanks for the validation and tips! There is so much to learn! My husband asked if this was anything like learning skiing. I told him it was, except that the skis and the snow are both alive and have Opinions about how things should go.

My initial response to the head-bonking thing was that he was being chummy in a disrespectful way, like a dog that jumps up on me (which I do not put up with - any dog that tries that gets a firm knee in the chest, or toe if it's a little dog). The head bonks felt like a Trial Balloon from someone who was testing the integrity of the power structure. He was all saddled up at the time so I gave his reins a little yank and told him to get out of my personal space, but I think I needed to have backed that up with something a little more forceful.

I don't want to piss him off, though, right before I get up to ride. On the other hand, I don't want to ride a horse that disrespects me. I'm still learning that balance, for sure.

This horse is a good mount for me - once I get up in the saddle, he behaves reasonably well - he goes where I tell him to, when I tell him to do it, he stops when I ask him to, his "default" position in a trot is to drop back to a walk (so minimal chance of him accelerating under me), and his trot is not super bouncy.

But he is the personal horse of the instructor's 13 year old daughter, and I think she (daughter) has either been teaching him bad habits or not keeping him from developing them. He tosses his head to pull on the bit, even if I've been releasing them properly after he responds to a cue (the instructor is all the time reminding me to take up slack, so it's not that I'm keeping too much contact on). That's the only problem when I'm in the saddle, but on the ground, he is a pest! There's the head-bonk thing. And as soon as I put him on the hitching post or cross-ties, he is INCREDIBLY fidgety. He hits the ground with his hooves. I don't think I would just call this "pawing" because by the time I'm done brushing him out and all, he's dug a pit that needs to get dirt shoveled back into it. I have to be super-careful when grooming because he does this with all 4 feet. He will let me pick his feet up to pick his hoof, but he's kind of a pest about it and wants to jerk them away. If I hold them firmly so that he can't (learned that part pretty quickly) I think he leans on me.

I don't have a vast experience of this, obviously, but this is the 3rd horse I've done this with this spring, and he's the only one who digs holes, leans, fidgets, and tosses his head. And the instructor knows quite well that he does all these things, so it's not just that I'm making green-horn mistakes (although I am sure I am doing those too, but at this point, I have the grooming part down pretty well ).

So, except for the occasional pull-on-the-bit-to-make-sure-it's-still-there, he doesn't act up when I'm *on* him, but on the ground, he's like a cute, cheeky, exhausting toddler. I need to find a good way to come to terms with that, because until I learn to trot properly, this is the guy I'm going to be riding. It isn't my place, I think, to try to teach him that X, Y, or Z is NOT OK in general, but I'm figuring that he's at least as smart as a kid or a dog, and that he's capable of understanding that X, Y, or Z is NOT OK around ME.

 

[theBuff]

The horse I am riding right now also has really bad manners when it comes to grooming. He doesn't paw the ground, but he does act up when I am trying to pick his hooves and saddle him. Although he's not my horse, I'm being invested in teaching him his manners. If I am going to ride him, I want him to listen to and respect me. I'm using a combination of positive reinforcement and firmness. For instance, when I go to pick his hooves, he has a tendency try to pull them out of my hands or step out with his back ones. He's gotten much better in just two weeks, though. Lately, after he stands still without being rude while I'm picking his hooves, I'll give him a small treat after each hoof. I don't want him to come to expect it, but he has some behaviors that indicate he wasn't always treated very well, so I am trying to make that a positive experience for him. Like your mount, he'll occasionally try to lean on me - don't let that happen! Such a bad habit.

One of my mount's biggest issues occurs when I'm saddling him. When I tighten the cinch strap, he tosses his head and bites at the cross ties. Now, I'm pretty good about making sure that I'm not pinching his skin or anything like that. When he does this, I'm much more firm. I slap his chest and tell him no. When he stands still and behaves, I stroke him and pat him and tell him he's being good.

A lot of his behavior is indicative of a horse that wasn't treated well by a previous owner. He is a TB and was on the race track for a little while. Other than that, I am not sure of his past. That said, I've ridden other TBs with similarly bad habits, and I am inclined to say that they were treated poorly while on the track, resulting in some pretty rude behaviors now. Fortunately, this is a pretty sweet horse who seems eager to please . . . once he figures out what I want. I'm actually enjoying working with him because it is rewarding to see his manners develop and feel like I am teaching him as much as he is teaching me.

 

[contesstant]

It isn't my place, I think, to try to teach him that X, Y, or Z is NOT OK in general, but I'm figuring that he's at least as smart as a kid or a dog, and that he's capable of understanding that X, Y, or Z is NOT OK around ME.

Serafina, I've highlighted the MOST important part of your post. And yes, it IS OK for you to teach him that the behavior is not acceptable at ALL. He sounds a bit spoiled with his impatience while tied. My trainer in Virginia used to take horses like that and tie them to the arena wall in the corner while she worked other horses. They would not be untied until they quit pawing, or fidgeting, or what have you. That would be for hours in some cases. One of my pet peeves is horses who won't stand quietly.

A horse who is pushy on the ground will often be pushy under saddle.

The horse I am riding right now also has really bad manners when it comes to grooming. He doesn't paw the ground, but he does act up when I am trying to pick his hooves and saddle him. Although he's not my horse, I'm being invested in teaching him his manners. If I am going to ride him, I want him to listen to and respect me. I'm using a combination of positive reinforcement and firmness. For instance, when I go to pick his hooves, he has a tendency try to pull them out of my hands or step out with his back ones. He's gotten much better in just two weeks, though. Lately, after he stands still without being rude while I'm picking his hooves, I'll give him a small treat after each hoof. I don't want him to come to expect it, but he has some behaviors that indicate he wasn't always treated very well, so I am trying to make that a positive experience for him. Like your mount, he'll occasionally try to lean on me - don't let that happen! Such a bad habit.

One of my mount's biggest issues occurs when I'm saddling him. When I tighten the cinch strap, he tosses his head and bites at the cross ties. Now, I'm pretty good about making sure that I'm not pinching his skin or anything like that. When he does this, I'm much more firm. I slap his chest and tell him no. When he stands still and behaves, I stroke him and pat him and tell him he's being good.

A lot of his behavior is indicative of a horse that wasn't treated well by a previous owner. He is a TB and was on the race track for a little while. Other than that, I am not sure of his past. That said, I've ridden other TBs with similarly bad habits, and I am inclined to say that they were treated poorly while on the track, resulting in some pretty rude behaviors now. Fortunately, this is a pretty sweet horse who seems eager to please . . . once he figures out what I want. I'm actually enjoying working with him because it is rewarding to see his manners develop and feel like I am teaching him as much as he is teaching me.

Buff, the hoof cleaning behavior I'd like to see. Some of them ALWAYS just pick their hind legs up really high and get kind of "twitchy" back their until they relax into the position. Instead of treats, which aren't the best way to provide positive reinforcement, give him a scratch and a "GOOD BOY!" (The scratch obviously after you're done with the hoof, the good boy as soon as he picks it up.)

Now, the behavior while being cinched up I would not scold him for. Not only is it normal, it is also indicative of pain. Whether it be a poor fitting saddle or ulcers, or both. Ulcers are VERY common in horses, especially those kept in stalls and fed twice a day. Anyway, try taking the girth/cinch up in increments and talking to him and even patting him on the shoulder. He's probably not being just plain naughty, he's telling you that he hurts. Now, if he tries to bite YOU (which I'm assuming he can't reach you, but if you tighten him while he's not tied up) THEN you can scold him.

Studies have shown that 90% of race horses and show horses have ulcers :( I had a mare who was loaded with them and had to be treated with omeprazole for 4 months (that's a long time to treat a horse for them.) My horse now ALWAYS has hay in front of him to munch on, and gets omeprazole when he travels to shows or is on NSAIDS for any reason.

I've recently been around a couple of racing thoroughbreds who just came off the track. My opinion is they aren't necessarily abused, just spoiled and allowed to get away with poor manners because nobody cares to take the time to teach them otherwise. So keep at it! You're on the right track (hmm, no pun intended ;D)

 

[theBuff]

Buff, the hoof cleaning behavior I'd like to see. Some of them ALWAYS just pick their hind legs up really high and get kind of "twitchy" back their until they relax into the position. Instead of treats, which aren't the best way to provide positive reinforcement, give him a scratch and a "GOOD BOY!" (The scratch obviously after you're done with the hoof, the good boy as soon as he picks it up.)

His behavior here is interesting. He doesn't just tense until he relaxes into the position. He'll dance under the cross ties and move away from me when I try to hoof pick him. In one of our early sessions, he nearly "danced" into someone walking through the stable. I have to say, he has gotten ten times better with this in just a few weeks.

There is some indication that he had an injury to his back right leg at one point, and that's the one that he's the most finicky with. However, we've checked for swelling in the joints and for reactions to pressure up and down the leg, and he seems fine now. Mostly seems like a matter of getting him used to being hoof picked again and trusting the person doing it.

Now, the behavior while being cinched up I would not scold him for. Not only is it normal, it is also indicative of pain. Whether it be a poor fitting saddle or ulcers, or both. Ulcers are VERY common in horses, especially those kept in stalls and fed twice a day. Anyway, try taking the girth/cinch up in increments and talking to him and even patting him on the shoulder. He's probably not being just plain naughty, he's telling you that he hurts. Now, if he tries to bite YOU (which I'm assuming he can't reach you, but if you tighten him while he's not tied up) THEN you can scold him.

You're right about him not trying to bite me because he can't reach me, but the instructor was near his head at one point because he was being particularly testy and he went after her. That's part of the reason we're being as firm as we are with him. For the most part he's not a biting horse, so we agree that there are some sensitivity or pain issues. What we can't determine is if the behaviors are reaction to current pain or if they were previous reactions to pain that have now become behavioral. We do tighten the saddle in increments and, like I said, I'm always careful not to pinch. I do this anyway, but I am especially careful due to his sensitivity.

What's interesting to me about this horse is that his manners under saddle are fine. He's horribly mannered while he's being groomed, but the minute we get him out of the barn and off the cross ties, he's fine. Times you wish they could talk . . .

Studies have shown that 90% of race horses and show horses have ulcers :( I had a mare who was loaded with them and had to be treated with omeprazole for 4 months (that's a long time to treat a horse for them.) My horse now ALWAYS has hay in front of him to munch on, and gets omeprazole when he travels to shows or is on NSAIDS for any reason.

This is good to know and will suggest it to the instructor so that we can have the vet check him.

I've recently been around a couple of racing thoroughbreds who just came off the track. My opinion is they aren't necessarily abused, just spoiled and allowed to get away with poor manners because nobody cares to take the time to teach them otherwise. So keep at it! You're on the right track (hmm, no pun intended ;D)

I know you're right here. I rode one horse who was treated pretty badly on the track (put in a squeeze, twitched, etc.), so I tend to be a little biased.

 

[perma-grin]

discourage the head bumping itis a signof disrespect for you and if he doesn't respect you on the ground he sure as heck isn't going to respect you when your on his back. I do both smack then back'em up! I have NO patience for a pushy disrepectful horse (or people for that matter). LOl!

 

[Bumblebee]

The bumping is very disrespectful. Your horses knows at all times where his feet and head are - but of course he can choose to biff you or tread on you! Not allowed. If he pushes you, you can push him back but of course it's got to be immediately, no delayed reaction - there must be a quick and direct consequence to his actions. Obviously this is not a nod to violence!

I'd really recommend Monty Roberts for tips & tricks for getting a horse's trust and respect. https://www.montyroberts.com/

Feel free to ignore all of this as I spent an un-fruitful hour attempting to catch my nag this morning and returned home empty-handed. <sigh> At least she didn't barge me.

 

[Serafina]

I think "bad manners" is a very good way to put it!

I just don't have as much confidence in my instincts on how to deal with bad manners with the horse as I do with dogs and kids. One thing that seems clear from everything I've been reading and what my instructor has told me is that you have about a 3-second window with horses. If they cut up, the reprimand or corrective action needs to be administered right away. Same for rewards with good behavior, from the sounds of it.

So I've been thinking about possible responses to this stuff. I REALLY do not like this pawing thing. I would like the horse to stand still and move around only a little when I am grooming him. He hits the ground so hard with his hoof that if he accidentally hits my foot it's going to mess up my boot. The instructor said I could poke him when he does that, but I can't remember *where* to poke him, so I will be asking her about that before I tie him up and start working on Friday.

The leaning only happened when I was picking his hoof. When he started this up on Friday, I didn't realize what he was doing until he wasn't leaning any more, so I didn't do anything to make him stop. It has crossed my mind that if I have to drop the hoof to deliver a reprimand, he might consider that to be positive reinforcement of the behavior. So I thought I might do one of two things: I could poke him lightly on the shoulder with the hoof pick, because I'll already have that in my hand, and it's more hard and pointy than my finger (but I am concerned that he will fly up into the air in surprise or that I will injure him) OR I think I could move myself away a little so that I'm not there to lean on (but I am concerned that he might interpret that as submissive behavior, in which case it will make things worse).

I thought on the head-bonk thing that I might try the elbow thing - I know exactly where *I* think it is proper that his head be when I am leading him, and that is about 2 feet off and slightly behind my right arm, so I have room to put the elbow out.

I do want to make sure that these little incursions up the power pyramid don't turn into big incursions up the power pyramid. I know with kids, you got to get it while it's small, or you wind up with a total hellion on your hands. It's looking like it must be the same with horses. Stay on this stuff 100% while it's small, and hopefully you don't get the big problem.

In the meantime, I'm actually kind of glad that I'm getting a chance to see behavior problems in a horse that is still safe (he doesn't buck, kick, rear, or any of that rubbish). And I'm glad you guys are here to give me advice on it! This is providing terrific experience. I still think I might want my own horse some day, and it's so much better if I get the whole picture (or at least, a reasonably whole picture, since I definitely don't have the experience to train up baby horses or deal with rescued/abused animals) in advance.

I had no idea that there was this much Head Game involved in horses! And I am willing to bet that I'm just scratching the tip of the iceberg, too!

 

[contesstant]

What you need to remember about horses are two key things: 1)They are big, strong animals who bite hard and play hard and fight hard; and 2) they can feel a fly land on them.

With that in mind, you don't want to softly "poke" at them and invoke the "get that fly off me response" because that response will fester and you might just end up with a very irritated horse. An irritated horse is far more likely to eventually respond in a pissed off manner and cause harm. So...you need to be perhaps a little harder on them than you might think necessary. I'm a big fan of the open-handed body smack--causes a little pain, a lot of noise, and gets the point across. Back it up with a verbal "quit!" or "hey!" as those verbal cues can come in handy when under saddle or even across the aisle from them. Using an instrument to aid (like a bat, meaning crop, not baseball bat!) will render a horse who will behave well if you are carrying around said instrument. I prefer my body to be the instrument so I never have to rely on them knowing whether or not I am "armed". They need to respect ME, not the bat or what have you. Those tools certainly have their place and can be used in instances where a horse is just showing you no respect, but in general, they should be just that--tools.

Some breeds might be less tolerant or more likely to retaliate than arabs, though so be mindful of that. (Arabs get a very unjust rap in the world and I always say it's not them, it's the stupid owners who are outsmarted by them ;D) Arabs are typically VERY obedient and also highly intelligent, so get easily bored or annoyed if you pick at them or drill them on the same stuff daily. Anyway, I digress...

As for the "pawing" you talk about, the way you describe it makes it sound almost like he is stomping at flies or something irritating him. If he IS in fact pawing or just being a butt, a smack on the shoulder of the leg he is pawing with using an open hand and a "quit!" should get the point across. You might have to stand there and do it over and over again, and it might still happen daily, but the occurrence should decrease over time. Just make sure it's not flies bothering him. If so, a little fly spray will help :D

 

[Serafina]

Thanks for clearing that up about the bat - my first picture was of a baseball bat, and I was thinking "What am I getting into here?!?!"

The instructor says he paws because he is bored and spoiled. The stable is pretty hearty about fly control. He does the paw/whacking/hole digging with all of his feet. I can see it coming a mile away, too. He gives me this appraising look, then he picks his foot up and hangs it in the air for a bit, then he starts in with the pawing and hole digging. After a while, he might add a second or third foot into the action. He has been doing this any time I am working with him from the ground, and does it every minute I'm not leading him around (at which point he's butting me with his head, etc.).

I will think on this some more - I do not want to get put in the same box as a fly in the horse's mind.

He is a quarter horse, if that makes a difference.

 

[mtngirl]

What does your instructor say about this?

I wrote this whole big blog about how to fix some of your problems, and then realized that you really shouldn't be "training" this horse, and your instructor should be helping you deal with his bad behavior.. and probably, if she intends to use him as a lesson horse, work with him so he behaves in a way that is safe for beginners to handle...

That said, some of it may be leadership issues.. if he feels like he can invade your space while you are leading him, he doesnt respect you as a leader, and that will transfer to other areas. Fixing the bumping while leading may help some of the other areas.

 

[Serafina]

When I met the gelding, the instructor did say that he was fidgety, and did something to him that made him stop pawing...until she left. She was off doing other things around the stable while I groomed him last time, so she wasn't there to see all the pawing (just the hole he made), or the leaning, and he was only bumping me when her back was turned. If she watches him, he pretty much behaves.

Because he behaves when she's watching him (and he behaves for me once I'm in the saddle), it seems pretty clear this *is* a leadership problem (as in, I am not providing appropriate leadership). I planned to talk to the instructor about how to sort this out before we get him on the hitching post or cross-ties. I want to make the most of the limited lesson time, so I think about this stuff and ask around, try to decide what is most important or pressing, what I need help with, what I can take care of for myself, etc. Stuff comes up like this, I try to sort it out for myself, and if I can't, I get some help from her. She's on us like glue when I'm actually in the saddle riding, but it's pretty casual otherwise. She'll check in and ask if I'm OK to groom, and she watches carefully while I'm tacking him up because I do still need supervision on that for safety purposes.

As you guys can see from the top-level post, it took me a little while to understand that the head bonk, etc. is a problem that should be discouraged...I'm sure as I get more used to working with the horses, I'll be able to recognize problems *as* problems faster. I don't have a lot of experience, and this horse knows that, and I know he knows it... I feel like I'm in one of those war movies where a green young officer shows up to take command of a platoon of grizzled and battle-hardened old guys.

 

[contesstant]

What does your instructor say about this?

I wrote this whole big blog about how to fix some of your problems, and then realized that you really shouldn't be "training" this horse, and your instructor should be helping you deal with his bad behavior.. and probably, if she intends to use him as a lesson horse, work with him so he behaves in a way that is safe for beginners to handle...

That said, some of it may be leadership issues.. if he feels like he can invade your space while you are leading him, he doesnt respect you as a leader, and that will transfer to other areas. Fixing the bumping while leading may help some of the other areas.

What she said :D

Since he IS full-on pawing and digging and doesn't do it with the instructor around, definitely find out what she does to make him stop. He'll respect you more in all areas if you can get him to in one.

 

[Serafina]

Yay! It worked!

This morning I told Elvis (the gelding) that there wasn't going to be any more of his funny stuff. He tried me out and hung his hoof in the air getting ready to paw. I gave him a good firm poke in the shoulder and told him NO.

He put the foot down and gave me a reproachful look.

Then he tried it out with the opposite-side hoof. I gave him another good poke, and he put it down.

Every time I saw one of those knees come up, I gave him a solid poke and told him STOP THAT. He only managed to get one good "paw" in the entire time I was cleaning him up. And - since I'm in New England, and this is a Paddock Horse - it took a bloody great long time to clean him.

He did fidget a little and tried his head tossing thing when he was on the hitching post. I nipped in quick and grabbed the lead rope and kept his head in one place until he stopped moving around.

And this time, when I went to pick out his feet, not only was there none of that "leaning" business, but he actually fully cooperated and lifted his foot up when I asked him to (without needing to have his chestnut squeezed or anything).

My theory is that I went wrong last week when I didn't figure out some way to stop him pawing the ground. Little bugger got an inch and immediately went for the mile (and got that too).

We had a great time in the ring thereafter as well. I posted, like really posted, all along the straight side of the ring...five times! I think I'm getting the hang of this! It doesn't feel so much like something I'm actually doing, as it does something I'm not preventing from happening (if that makes sense).

Thanks for all the advice on asserting myself with this guy. Now he's cutting up a little in the saddle - I was on one of the straight-away trots, posting away for all I was worth, and the little bugger yerked his head down. Instructor's opinion was that he was "playing games" with me. So now that I've got him where I need him (at least, for now) on the ground, I can tell I'll be having to work this out in the saddle too. This experience is fantastic!

 

[contesstant]

Good for you! They absolutely know who they can get away with stuff with so as soon as you asserted yourself as NOT one, he definitely did respond accordingly. Good job!!! They aren't that complex. VERY much like toddlers and preschoolers. Having their respect is KEY. And yes, under saddle, too. A jerk down by a horse while I am riding immediately gets a very hard jerk UP by me. Then the weapon of choice with a lot of them becomes their shoulders :D Mine wouldn't dare yank on the reins or do anything to pop out of frame at all, but he'll once in awhile drop a shoulder and try to blow though my leg. I'll then pick up the rein on that side and sometimes boot that shoulder with my foot if he doesn't respond to a subtler ask. So the games are always there, with some horses "playing" more than others.

The posting will just continue to get easier. Nice work!