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Frustrated: upper/lower body separation

flykra

Diva in Training
I am able to do this with short turns, but with longer turns I feel like I would need to twist my body in half, and DH and father still tell me I don't separate enough.

This is extremely frustrating because I just find it impossible to do. I try to keep my shoulders down the fall line, but they just don't! DH is NOT a ski instructor, and it's quite possible he doesn't know what he is talking about. I've taken a ton of lessons, and my instructors tell me my body position is fine. I know I am supposed to believe the instructors, but I can't help it and have this 'need' for family members to tell me I am doing it right, even considering the source.

Now for the question... Every image and video I pull up for longer turns, their shoulders are NOT pointing downhill, but rather on a diagonal. I believe I am doing the green guy here:

View attachment 12519

Is DH thinking I should be doing this?
View attachment 12521
Does this guy always have his shoulders perfectly down the fall line or do they ever go on a diagonal like the guy above? I have been so incredibly frustrated with myself for not getting it. Or maybe I am getting it and just don't know it? Yes, I am a perfectionist and have a hard time just having fun.
Too funny. My husband literally showed me this same picture today bc I am also having trouble with my upper and lower body working independently (why I opened this older thread). As if somehow this image will resonate with me in my second season of skiing at age 51. I was like "yeah, I'll get right on this." :smile:
 

WaterGirl

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
@flykra as a fellow rider, trust me you have upper and lower body separation if you are jumping at that level! you just need to change the orientation of your separation- more like galloping down hill ;)
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
1584705290237.png
This guy is doing that the green guy is doing, separating his upper body slightly from his feet/skis. His skis are almost pointing straight down the hill; note the direction the corduroy is going vs the direction the skis are pointing. And his body is almost matching the way the skis are pointing. It's pointed just a little to the outside of the turn. There isn't much difference at this point. It's the middle of the turn, not the end when the skis are pointing across the hill.

Green guy is pictured below with skis pointed across the hill. I suspect this is supposed to be the start of the new turn/end of old turn. He's pointing his upper body somewhat down the hill, to the inside of the new turn -- but this is also to the outside of the old turn. Confusing, huh?
green guy.png

To eliminate all this confusion, just try to turn the feet/skis more than the upper body. Or keep the upper body from turning as much as the feet/skis. That will eliminate the need for any analytical thinking, so you can get on with the business of enjoying the turns.

Learning to do this for most people requires deliberate practice, with the focus totally on making the separation happen, at least at first. Often exaggerating the separation helps in the learning. Such practice needs to be done on very easy terrain that isn't too crowded so you don't get caught up in thinking about speed gain or possible collisions.

In general, the amount of separation is bigger the shorter the turns. For very long radius turns, very little separation is needed.
 

newboots

Angel Diva
I was jolted by seeing @skisailor’s advice. I’m reading on my phone, and at first I thought this was a new thread. She is certainly missed.
 

BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Too funny. My husband literally showed me this same picture today bc I am also having trouble with my upper and lower body working independently (why I opened this older thread). As if somehow this image will resonate with me in my second season of skiing at age 51. I was like "yeah, I'll get right on this." :smile:
Haha! Too funny. Actually, believe it or not, I am getting slightly better at this now. Even my husband said so (!). It is easier to do when I am not intimidated, when it is smooth, when not icy, not crowded, when the stars align and full moon the night before, etc. etc. But I am able to do it and FEEL it when I do it on the rare occasion it does happen :smile:

This guy is doing that the green guy is doing, separating his upper body slightly from his feet/skis. His skis are almost pointing straight down the hill; note the direction the corduroy is going vs the direction the skis are pointing.
Ah, good point. He is not really separating in this shot, he is angulating because his speed is high and he is up on his edges. Maybe not the best example.
How about this guy:
1611005171407.png
 

BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I was jolted by seeing @skisailor’s advice. I’m reading on my phone, and at first I thought this was a new thread. She is certainly missed.
Just searched the forum to see what you are talking about and found the tribute thread :frown: Laura sounds like such a wonderful person and such a big loss for this community.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Haha! Too funny. Actually, believe it or not, I am getting slightly better at this now. Even my husband said so (!). It is easier to do when I am not intimidated, when it is smooth, when not icy, not crowded, when the stars align and full moon the night before, etc. etc. But I am able to do it and FEEL it when I do it on the rare occasion it does happen :smile:


Ah, good point. He is not really separating in this shot, he is angulating because his speed is high and he is up on his edges. Maybe not the best example.
How about this guy:
View attachment 14609
Separation is usually paired with angulation. It's really hard to angulate without it. Mr. orange jacket is separated, as are the others we are discussing. Who is it that you say is not really separating?
 
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tinymoose

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I think the other thing to keep in mind is separation and angulation are a HUGE continuum. My separation and particularly my angulation is better than it used to be before I started participating in race clinics, but it's still pretty minimal compared to most racer kids or any of the photos above, but it has improved! So it's not really a you either have it or you don't think in many cases.
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Skiing with ones feet and legs, independent of the torso (pelvis up to shoulders), is the point of separation. If a skier is motoring the skis with the feet and legs, then the job of the upper body becomes directing the accumulating pressure where it needs to go (fore-aft and ski-to-ski). There is not only directional separation, but job separation.

Skiers who have not yet achieved separation might be turning the upper body first, ahead of the skis, in order to drag the skis around. That's common among beginners and intermediates and is typically called "upper body rotation." It works, and is very powerful. It's especially effective for people who are too far aft, which is a lot of folks. UBR is quite prevalent. But it severely limits how much one can do with the skis. Completing turns is especially hindered.

Or non-separating skiers can simply keep the upper body rigidly locked into what the legs are doing, so that the two work together as a unit. The upper body is not turned ahead of the skis; it turns with the skis. This is called "following." It also limits how much one can do with the skis. Pressure tends to go to the inside ski since the upper body leans in to edge the skis. The whole body works to edge the skis like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. The inside ski pressure gets too high and the outside ski skids out, losing its grip in the second half of the turn.

Adjusting the amount of separation and angulation becomes an art once the skier figures out how to work the feet and legs separate form the torso. Learning how much, when and where, is an ongoing challenge. This challenge never ends. So yes, learning to use separation and angulation happens on a continuum.
 
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BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Who is it that you say is not really separating?
I was referring to the racer red jacket in my original post. I guess by "separating" I meant skis pointing in a different direction than the body, i.e. NOT down the fall line. Twisting?
 

liquidfeet

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
I was referring to the racer red jacket in my original post. I guess by "separating" I meant skis pointing in a different direction than the body, i.e. NOT down the fall line. Twisting?

Got it! Right, that red jacket skier is not using separation.
 
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BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Skiers who do not separate can be turning the upper body first in order to drag the skis around. That's common among beginners and intermediates and is typically called "upper body rotation."
I did that my first season of learning, but I definitely do NOT do that anymore. Not even on intimidating terrain.

Or non-separating skiers can simply keep the upper body rigidly locked onto the legs so that the two work together as a unit. The upper body is not turned ahead of the skis; it turns with the skis. This is called "following."

This I occasionally do when I am out of my comfort zone. I know when I am doing it but feel powerless to stop it. Once on somewhat comfortable terrain, which these days are most non-icy blues or even non-icy blacks, I separate somewhat. The friendlier the conditions, the better I am able to do. On suuuper smooth freshly-groomed non-icy cords (which here in New England is, like, never) I am even able to carve and angulate for a split second :becky:
 

vickie

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Thanks, @Jilly! That is exactly what my coach had me working on last Friday ... the long sideslip. Demonstrating my success would produce a video about 2 seconds long! Including credits.

In lieu of video, I'm composing notes I'll post.
 

BMR

Ski Diva Extraordinaire
Don't know how much this might help and sorry about the French, but Sunny is one of the best female CSIA IV's we have.
Thank you for this. I try and practice the side slip and the "falling leaf" drill as much as I can, and I am getting better.
 

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