Forward flex in boots

[liquidfeet]

Someone who knows, please tell me if I am correct.

I think that boots with little or no forward flex are for experts and hi-end racers who have really good control over how much pressure they want to deliver to the tips of their skis. They want the ski to tilt down exactly the amount they tilt the toe of their boot down, no play involved, because they can precisely choose what they want. That happens when their boots are tight and inflexible.

Boots with "give" in their forward flex are for normal people who are not so skillful in delivering exact amounts of tilt to their toes and consequently the tips of their skis. They lean forward, the boot tongues give, and some of their lean is delivered to the ski tip, but the interface is a bit squishy. These boots are "forgiving," because they allow the skier time to adjust their center of gravity when they goof.

Is this correct?

 

[volklgirl]

Yup, you got about 90% of it.

Many people also like softer forward flex for all mountain, park/pipe, and bump skiing because it allows the ankle to absorb some of the terrain changes rather than transmitting it all to the knees/quads/hips. Top racers may have several pairs of boots with different flex characteristics....ranging from uber-stiff for instant response in slalom to super-soft to allow skis to 'swim' in downhill.

Skier weight plays a huge role as well - heaveir people usually need stiffer boots, lighter people need softer. As does ski stiffness and flex - stiffer skis requirer stiffer boots to work their best.

 

[smpayne]

Liquidfeet thank you for asking this question. I've been so confused lately.

I grew up hearing that stiffer is better (back in the days of straight sticks), now the guys at the ski shops are saying a bit more flex is better. I want to get new boots in the right size & right fit, but the new boots feel much more flexible than my current boots and I'm scared to change.

I currently have Salomon X-Wave 8W (80 flex) and was seriously looking at the Tecnica Attiva Flame (80 flex). The Tecnica's actually feel much softer than the Salomon's. 2 different bootfitters (same store) suggested either the Tecnica's or Nordica's for my feet (wide fore foot & high instep), although they suggested a model or two down. I wish we could "Demo" boots. Will I like the softer flex or will I hate it? I would love some opinions, are they right?

 

[liquidfeet]

SMPayne,
Yes, I do so also wish we could demo boots. They are more important than the skis. So why not?
Anyone ever demo'ed boots out there?

 

[Jilly]

I got to demo the ladies Nordica boots last year at the NSIA show. The local shop here doesn't carry them, so I was "told I couldn't like them". But boots are personal and need to fit. You are saying wide forefoot and high instep. I have a narrow heel, high instep and medium (B) width. The Nordica's were neat, but I like my Rossi's better. If you are paying extra for a boot fit, then changing your boots shouldn't be a problem if you don't like them.

 

[volklgirl]

Don't forget that the "flex rating" is only good within a particular boot manufacturers line (and not always then...the Lange Exclusive 100 is waaaay softer than my World Cup 100 Teams). There is no correlation between Technica's 80 and Salomon's 80 - in fact my Salomon Race at 90 is much stiffer than my new Lange 100.

You should be more concerned with fit first. A good bootfitter can always make a too-stiff boot softer, but it's really hard to make a too-soft boot stiffer. And the shaped skis respond better to more tip pressure than older skis, so more forward flex is a good thing. IIRC, an appropriate forward flex should allow you to flex so your knees are not much farther forward than your toes.

Jeannie Thoren used to demo boots as well as skis, plus she and Tom fit them and put in decent footbeds as well.

SnowHot; if you haven't found a great bootfitter, go see Scott Purdy at Banhoff in Petoskey. He really seems to know his stuff and is way worth the drive (plus he's way cute! ;) )

 

[smpayne]

Thank you!!! This actually helps.

I have been playing with the fit of the Salomons for a while (definitely 1 size too big), I only had minor discomfort this weekend without having to pop buckles at the lift. Discovered by accident my (not custom) footbed was too small and hit my arch & heel in all the wrong places - got a bigger one and it worked better. Without the severe pain that was there earlier, I was beginning to doubt that I needed to spend the $$$ on new boots this year.

I don't race so there is probably no need for me to have a super stiff boot and I'm still working on how to really carve my skis and not skid and learning how to ski powder. When I do get new boots, based on all your informative comments, I will spend the $$ for custom footbeds and the proper bootfitting. This will be where my X-mas bonus from work is going, because otherwise we just don't have the $$$.

 

[SnowHot]

A weekend spent with the best of the best gave me a lot of chair lift time discussing such things as, boots.
You will likely see the high performance boots with a stiffer flex on the most profound skiers.
You can imagine that the coaches at ESA were all in fairly stiff boots.
You will find most of them unbuckling when on the lift and when standing still but when they buckle in, that boot is "one" with the body.

I love my Kryptons. Just tight enough for a performance fit, but not so much that I have to constantly unbuckle.

 

[Quiver Queen]

Remember that for all-mountain skiing you have to be able to bend at your ankles--you cannot ski bumps and powder if you can't get lift, and you can't get lift if your ankles can't bend. Don't let your boots keep you from advancing like I did, plus too stiff boots can make for a very frustrating day when everybody else is having fun. A lot of shops will guarantee satisfaction (I go to one) so they have an incentive to get you fitted properly the first time; if they don't have what you need, they should say so. Don't hesitate to ask a shop's policy and don't hesitate to move on if you feel you're being railroaded or not being listened to--boots are way too important for a compromise.

 

[liquidfeet]

How does this "lift" thing work? I though when skiing bumps you needed to absorb the bumps, and stay centered, not forward.

Bump skiing is not yet one of my good skills, unless it's newborn bumps growing up today beneath my feet. I ski them with my stiff boots buckled tightly, and ok. But icy mature old bumps, no. Not at all.

 

[sleddog]

The amount of dorsiflexion you have will also determine how stiff a boot one needs. Someone with hyper-mobile ankle joint needs a stiff boot to provide stability. Someone who has limited mobility also needs a stiffer boot so that the small amount of energy they can make is transferred to the ski quickly.

So, in a nutshell -find a bootfitter that looks at the big picture of joint flexibility and foot stability rather than only skier size and ability for boot choice.

 

[ISki]

Boots with "give" in their forward flex are for normal people who are not so skillful in delivering exact amounts of tilt to their toes...

It's not all about skill. Comfort matters too. A softer boot is a good choice for those who like to ski all day. A stiff racing boot gets old fast.

 

[sskier]

I have so much to say on this subject and so little time.
What everyone has said is great.
Subtle foot-ankle sterring is more important that brute power, especially laterally. With the shape skis the need to use strong foward pressure to the tip is gone.
You need to start with a stable platform for your foot and your body must be in alignment.
Ankle flexion is important in proving energy transmission to the front of the boot. to much or to little will affect your sking. Is your Knee tracking? Are you bow legged or knock knees? These are three smiple thing you can check.
What type of foot do you have narrow - wide , high instep etc...
Quickly;
Knowing the last will help. The Nordica GTS has a last of 101. I think the Beast is at 100 with the same shell. Most upper end boots the last is around 98. The Krypton storms last is 98.
1st. Bring your socks and and custom footbeds.
2nd. make sure the bootfitter measures your feet.
3rd. Do a shell fit- many shells are anatomically lasted to fit the foot.
4th liner back in, boots should fit sung not pressure points
If the initial fit is painfull take if off. If the initial fit is ok, were the boots around of twenty min.
when you do take them off see if there are any red spots for pressure points.
It you have a boot that fits, it can be fine tuned.
If you can demo a boot that is the best.
Characteristics :
expert/ racer. Very very snug fit, strong lonitudinal and torsional rigidity, No distortion.
Expert/freerider: snug fitting shell with more cushioning in the liner. No excess fore/alf and side to side. contfortable tongue.
I have two boots. Last years tecnia flames and this year Noridica GTS 12. I have a size 9 foot with a D width and of course like many women I have a narrow heel and a big calf.
Sorry I haven't gotten around to posting a little bit about myself. After the hoidays I will. Quickly, I do work in a ski shop and I love espeically fitting boots.

 

[smpayne]

sskier:
Loved your expainations!!! Very informative and helpful. It's nice to talk with someone who has a similar foot to mine. I'm size 7 1/2 C/D width (forgot to look exactly when they measured - they just said wide forefoot), narrow ankle and wide, low calfs with a high instep.

You have similar boots to those that were recomended to me. I was looking at the Tecnica Attiva Flame (my choice) & the Attiva V8, both were comfortable. I worried about the amount of padding in the Nordica Beast (only one I tried so far). How much will it pack out, will it be comfortable once it did?