Feet too close?

[persee]

Since I now have my first pictures of myself skiing I can see my form more isolated in terms of my body positioning while skiing. While I'm happy to see that I don't look like I'm in the backseat at all (the AC3s don't like that! ). However it does raise a question I notice that sometimes when I feel like I'm carving I have my feet really close together, while others they are further separated. In the pics I posted in my trip report my feet (and thusly skis) seem very close. So is this a good stance or should my feet (ie skis) be further apart? And if so how far apart?

I'll repost 2 pictures here :

 

[altagirl]

That's one thing that when I've gone to instructional camps I hear over and over again - to virtually everyone - is that you need your feet farther apart.

How far apart depends a little on the terrain - if you're on breakable crust, or skiing powder on skinny skis, or zipperlining bumps, then they go closer together to create a platform. Otherwise - keep them shoulder width apart.

Look at how wide of a stance ski racers use:

The key is that you want to learn to use your legs independently - particularly in crud and such. I mean - just stand without skis on and if your feet are apart, you're more stable than if they're tight together. You already have great angulation with your upper body staying upright!

you can just make out the skis in this, but:

Anyway - I "feel" the carve most when my feet get much farther than shoulder width apart, my inside knee is really bent, and you get your hip close to the ground and all of that. It'll take a little adjustment, but you should be much more stable when you get used to it.

 

[CMCM]

I recently took a lesson with Pat Northrup at Squaw....probably their top female teacher. She said with the new shaped skis, you no longer want to ski with your skis so close....shoulder width is more like it. She said the skis glued together style is old old old....the straight, longer skis of 10 years or more ago. Old skiing style, too. I was glad to learn that!

 

[Severine]

Depends on what you're doing. From what I understand, if you're skiing bumps, you want your skis close together (remember that true mogul skis are pretty much straight skis). But for general carving, my understanding is that a wider stance is preferable these days. Though all the bump skiers I know ski with a tight stance all the time anyway (with quick, short turns like they're skiing bumps even if there aren't any).

 

[Jilly]

The one thing that was stated over and over again for me was "get your feet apart" last week on the instructors course. As stated narrow stance for bumps and powder or crud. Otherwise as far apart as comfortable. At the start of next season I'm going to wear a small buggie cord just at the top of the boots. Must keep the buggie there, so feet will need to be spread apart. It would be interesting to see if you split your feet just a the turn. DH does that. Stance looks good otherwise in the first photo.

 

[altagirl]

Depends on what you're doing. From what I understand, if you're skiing bumps, you want your skis close together (remember that true mogul skis are pretty much straight skis). But for general carving, my understanding is that a wider stance is preferable these days. Though all the bump skiers I know ski with a tight stance all the time anyway (with quick, short turns like they're skiing bumps even if there aren't any).

Yeah - there's competition bump style and then human being bump style. And basically in the camps I've done, they teach "fat ski bump style" or "bump skiing for people who hate bumps". If you really want to zipperline bumps - that's a whole different animal - there are bump skis and bump lessons and all of that. And then it seems like they do glue their feet together no matter what.

But if you're on normal skis and don't have the energizer bunny skills to make those superfast turns, they taught me to basically aim for the top of a bump and shave it off down the backside. Fat skis smear well and that will help you both scrub speed and avoid slamming into those troughs that are brutal on non 18-year old knees. And when you're doing that, your skis still aren't tight together - you still have the independent suspension thing going on.

 

[Jilly]

Key word for bumps is " Narrow stance". So its just narrower than your regular stance. But not feet glued together unless you're Jean-Luc Brassard!

 

[Severine]

Yeah - there's competition bump style and then human being bump style. And basically in the camps I've done, they teach "fat ski bump style" or "bump skiing for people who hate bumps". If you really want to zipperline bumps - that's a whole different animal - there are bump skis and bump lessons and all of that. And then it seems like they do glue their feet together no matter what.

But if you're on normal skis and don't have the energizer bunny skills to make those superfast turns, they taught me to basically aim for the top of a bump and shave it off down the backside. Fat skis smear well and that will help you both scrub speed and avoid slamming into those troughs that are brutal on non 18-year old knees. And when you're doing that, your skis still aren't tight together - you still have the independent suspension thing going on.

Not to hijack the thread, but this is an interesting description. Hubby and his buds all ski bumps (with bump skis) and he's been trying to draw me in. My skis are much more shaped and therefore not as easy to maneuver, so to speak, in the way he's used to. Plus I only have 2 seasons on skis. I dabbled a few times but quickly bailed out on the bump lines. Do you know of any visuals online that correspond with the description you posted? I think I understand what you're typing, but seeing it would seal it for me.

 

[persee]

I guess it's just finding a happy medium... I always used to worry about having my skis too far apart, so I've now (at least sometimes) over-corrected. Hrm... I guess that's something to pay attention to on Sunday (my next ski day).

I guess it says something that I'm no longer concentrating primarily on making it down the hill but more exactly *how* I'm making it down the hill and how I can make it down better! I'm probably (at least this past weekend) about 50% of the time with the skis really tight (when I was worrying about not being too far apart!) and 50% of the time with proper spread (my shoulders aren't wide! ). It looks like the proper spread is when I'm relaxing and not thinking about where my feet/skis are (hence in my pictures they're too tight! :p ).

Thinking about this more I think my overcompensation->feet too close might be one of the last relics of my ballet instincts left in my skiing. When performing ballet you always want your feet superclose together so your legs are almost as one when both feet are in contact with the ground/floor - separation will get a whack from Madame! So much of what is natural posture for me comes from years of dancing - the good part is that I have very good (no slumping/slumped shoulders) posture with my back and I have great core strength/stability. On the bad side I have hyper extended knees, I tend to stand with a turn-out to my feet, I like to keep my butt firmly tucked under my body (not so good for skiing) while I stand very upright, and my natural stance has my feet together.

 

[Gloria]

Yeah - there's competition bump style and then human being bump style. And basically in the camps I've done, they teach "fat ski bump style" or "bump skiing for people who hate bumps". If you really want to zipperline bumps - that's a whole different animal - there are bump skis and bump lessons and all of that. And then it seems like they do glue their feet together no matter what.

But if you're on normal skis and don't have the energizer bunny skills to make those superfast turns, they taught me to basically aim for the top of a bump and shave it off down the backside. Fat skis smear well and that will help you both scrub speed and avoid slamming into those troughs that are brutal on non 18-year old knees. And when you're doing that, your skis still aren't tight together - you still have the independent suspension thing going on.

I have been relearning bumps in the more competetion form and it's actually alot less jarring. It is tough on fat skis, though, I tend to cross my tips alot as I have wide shovels and decent amount of sidecut. The theory behind the close feet this style is actually to reduce jarring, by having a tighter stance the feet hit the bump at a similiar level or height on the bump and makes reaction easier. The trick is to maintain tip to tail snow contact and use downward pressure on the ski for speed control. To do this, instead of bringing the knee to the chest, you bring your heel up to your butt which drives the tip of the ski down and through the trough instead of cutting it and bouncing across or dropping and slamming, when your foot is going into the deepest part you apply downward pressure instead of carving or skidding, this will slow you down if you maintain contact. Believe it or not, it feels really really smooth, not jarring at all. It's almost like you're walking, you just sort of pull the foot up over the bump and step back down. It's a pretty cool feeling actually, very smooth. Although I still flail with it when it gets icy, I'm totally loving skiing the bumps now. It's really effortless when you get a good line and get into a rythmn.

 

[Native Vail Gal]

I like my feet closer together. I think it's prettier skiing. But.....hard with the fatter skis!

I think you are a pretty skier! :D

 

[MaineSkiLady]

Actually, the skis now do perform better when they're not "locked" together. I've fought this old straight-ski habit for a long time. One good lesson could provide all kinds of exercises and drills, even cues/reminders, to help you feel the difference and try out different ways to vary your stance.

 

[persee]

I like my feet closer together. I think it's prettier skiing. But.....hard with the fatter skis!

I think you are a pretty skier! :D

You are tooooooo sweet! Thanks!

 

[altagirl]

Ugh.. I've been trying to type out what I rememeber or find a video or photo that does it justice, and I'm not having much luck. (I wish I could find the videos from the camp...)

You can always go to Gordy's camp and get the experience first-hand, though! https://www.straightlineadventures.com/index.html


I just found this in my search though:
https://www.alpinezone.com/skiing/articles/bumps1.htm

Which explains the technique differences a little. My favorite coach for bump skiing is actually a ski patroller with no instructor training. And he's the one who advocated shaving off the tops of the bumps, skip between them when you want, let your fat skis do the work and smear your turns, don't bash, etc. That works well for me and it does make sense that it's the style you develop when you're not racing through the bumps or trying to follow a rigid "this is how you have to do it" type of style, but it ends up being more graceful and fluid than "bumping" (IMHO).

And if you husband wants to teach you real zipperline technique, tell him to buy you a new set of bump skis.

 

[Severine]

What's really funny is that you posted a link to an article on AZ. Hubby and his bump buddies are all members there (and that's how they hooked up as ski buddies). :D

I think I've met my quota for new skis this year. Though each time he's been sure to tell me that I'm choosing bad bump skis.

I'll have plenty of time in the off season to read the recommendations... and the skiing moguls book he threw on the desk for me one day.

 

[altagirl]

I have been relearning bumps in the more competetion form and it's actually alot less jarring. It is tough on fat skis, though, I tend to cross my tips alot as I have wide shovels and decent amount of sidecut. The theory behind the close feet this style is actually to reduce jarring, by having a tighter stance the feet hit the bump at a similiar level or height on the bump and makes reaction easier. The trick is to maintain tip to tail snow contact and use downward pressure on the ski for speed control. To do this, instead of bringing the knee to the chest, you bring your heel up to your butt which drives the tip of the ski down and through the trough instead of cutting it and bouncing across or dropping and slamming, when your foot is going into the deepest part you apply downward pressure instead of carving or skidding, this will slow you down if you maintain contact. Believe it or not, it feels really really smooth, not jarring at all. It's almost like you're walking, you just sort of pull the foot up over the bump and step back down. It's a pretty cool feeling actually, very smooth. Although I still flail with it when it gets icy, I'm totally loving skiing the bumps now. It's really effortless when you get a good line and get into a rythmn.

I'm impressed and I don't doubt you... but I don't think it's for me. Something about how fast the turns are, I don't know. Well, that and the fact that I know several guys who used to be high level bump skiers who have said their knees can't take it anymore. I think you're very right in that if you know what you're doing and have a good run - it's probably easier on your body. But if you're zipperlining and are off... the consequences are bad. And my abused knees don't like those odds.

Well, that and I'm always on fat skis, which don't lend themselves to zipperlining either! :p

 

[Gloria]

You know, bump technique even for competitve skiers has changed drastically over the past few years. I know they did use a real slamming technique, but recently there is a new technique aka the Sun Valley Technique that is really prohibitive of the slamming and really discouraged in competition. There still is as we learned, the risk of getting injured on the jumps, which is where most recent freestyle skier injuries occur, and not only knees but backs as well, so there is always risk. Believe me, it is daunting to commit to that zipper at first. And expecially difficult on fat skis, which I am ussually on as well, but I am finding a happy medium. It's truly mind over matter, I'll have to see if I have any good photos, cause once you get in there, it's really mellow. This coming from one who for several years could only rip a huge GS turn too. I still go back to my old methods when the bumps are icy though still haven't conquered that mental hurdle, my husband however is now kicking my butt in the icy bumps because he can get in the mind frame.

 

[Native Vail Gal]

This is some of the BEST technique on bumps I have ever seen!!
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOdpu4fTyBs"]YouTube - bien bien... tout va pour le mieux!?![/ame]

...and of course....NO ONE WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED!

 

[altagirl]

Holy cow. Watching that makes my... everything hurt.

 

[Gloria]

I don't think we're gonna get AG into the zipperline after that.

Back to topic.....